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The French Aviation -where Are We Today?  
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4908 times:

Before getting flamed by the usual participants- I try NOT to be mean towards Air France but tend to open a neutral tread on a situation -report with french airlines- like the one opened for Spain.
Today we have a relatively reduced spectre of french aviation -:
-Air France doing well and expanding thanks to the synergies with KLM
(Including the subsidiaries like Britair,Régional,CCM)
-Air Mediterranée a rather niche-carrier spezialised on North/West Africa
-Aigle Azur with focus on Algeria
-Airlineair using ATR 42 and ATR72 for thin domestic flights
-Elysair (still awaiting the DOT licence ) seems doomed before even starting
-Axis ( currently under chapter 11 condition awaiting cash from it's new Israeli share-holders )
-Corsair awaiting re-structuring measured still to be announced by it's mother TUI
-Air Tahiti divorcing from previous ties with Air France

That's basically it
Please write any news or comments ...


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBtriple7 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4881 times:

These Country Aviation Threads are popping up everywhere these days. I'm particularly looking forward to this one as I don't know much about French aviation but would like to know more. I'm mostly interested in news about Air France-KLM.

The most I can say right now is: CDG is a mess. It's a very nice airport but far too spread out for connecting.

Regards,
Btriple7



Just...fly.
User currently offlineGoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1857 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4873 times:

you can add the other French airlines serving DOM-TOM, although I acknowledge they are "smaller" than TN :
- Air Calin
- Air Austral
- Air Caraïbes
What about star airlines. I know they are now owned by an Islandic group but are they still a France-registered carrier ?
I agree the situation is not very good for airlines in France. The new "French Transavia" announced recently is obviously a good news as there's a real need for charter operations since downsizing of Corsair and bankruptcy of Air Horizons. However, as I said in previous posts, I prefer to have one strong "national" carrier offering excellent service  cloudnine   champagne  thumbsup  rather than 3 or 4 all losing money and offering miserable service  crowded   fever   fight   thumbsdown   vomit  and knowing that even with only one big carrier, there is a strong competition with the foreign airlines, and domestically with the TGV.


User currently offlineWorkhorse From France, joined Jul 2005, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4873 times:

There's also Twin Jet, flying Beech 1900s on some thin regional routes.

http://www.twinjet.fr/


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7422 posts, RR: 57
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4878 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
CCM

CCM is not an Air France subsidiary.

CCM is just the "toy" of the Corsica Territorial Assembly, like ATN is for Tahiti, Air Austral for Reunion Island, Air Caraïbes for Guadeloupe & Martinique or AirCalin for New Caledonia.
CCM was just created for political reasons and to "please" and calm down the local "Independance" wishes.

CCM (Compagnie Corse Mediterranée) or Air Corsica is owned by the Territorial Assembly of Corsica (60,3%) + Air France (11,95%) + Bank Credit Agricole (7,55%) + SNCM (6,78%) etc ...

http://www.aircorsica.com/ccm-airlines.html

Back to your topic, you can add to your list the TGV.
I know it's a train, but consideing its power, its speed, network and performances it has to be considered as a major actor of the French Transportation landscape and a direct and terrible competitor of all airlines on short ditances in a relatively small country like France and ironically it is indeed changing all the deal when it comes to talk about the French Aviation.



[Edited 2006-12-16 14:57:47]

User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7422 posts, RR: 57
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4863 times:

Quoting Btriple7 (Reply 1):
The most I can say right now is: CDG is a mess

Right.
But as long as French Authorities will give priority to the "Look" and to the Achitects delirium, instead of efficiency will have beautiful pieces of Art airport buildings but completely ineffecient ...
Well, that's France !

Actually, it is changing with the terminals 2F, new 2E and satellite S3 at CDG.


User currently offlineBreiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1917 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4840 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
-Aigle Azur with focus on Algeria

Aigle Azur is a quite old French airline which seems to have survived all crisis, market, ownership, finance or management.
http://www.aigle-azur.fr/
I have always wonder why Aigle Azur has never developed more to become a prominent player in the French market.
I know that we have a say in France, "to live in happiness, one must live hidden", but still.


User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4793 times:

Bothe Aigle Azur and Air Mediterranée have relatively small but reliable and trust-worthy operations.
While Aigle Azur allows sheduled tickets-purchase on line ,Air Med is a pure charter operator.They have both managed to survive in their respective niche -markets and main clients like Point Afrique and FRAM are responsible for the survival of both companies.
Star Airlines has become an Islandic owned company and their future and market is still somewhat sketchy.Knowing the islandic love for wet-leases,I presume their aircraft will become gap-fillers for foreign operators.
Still one remark to Elysair - their operation based on a single 757 leased from Condor seems in jeopardy,since the approval for the service into EWR from ORY has not been granted so far by the DOT. That is an amazing hick-up,considering the experience the airline's CEO,Marc Rochet ,has in French aviation.



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7422 posts, RR: 57
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4781 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 7):
considering the experience the airline's CEO,Marc Rochet ,has in French aviation.

Well, I can understand why the Authoritues are reluctant to give all the approval when you consider the "experience" of Marc Rochet and the results of all the airlines he managed :  tombstone 


User currently offlinePoitin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4781 times:

I do hope this is French Aviation Thread #1 (of many) Big grin Welcome to the national aviation club along with Irish, Indian, Scottish, and others!

User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4760 times:

The list of rotten individuals in French aviation is very long -
Marc Rochet ( AOM,Air Lib,Air Littoral,Minerve,Euralair - all defunct airlines ..)
Jean Claude Corbet ( Air Lib ,Holco..)
Marc Dufour (Air Littoral ,now politician..)
Cédric Pastour (Star Airlines,Angelgate )
Jean-Marie Gras (L-Air )
Erik de Vlieger (Air Liberté )
and I certainly forget some other distinguished individuals.
Truth is that some capable managers have to suffer from the bad image French aviation has in business-circles.The managers of Air France,Airlineair,Aigle Azur,Air Med,Air Tahiti or Corsair do a good job in defending their companies interests and run them very professionally.



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineIcarus75 From France, joined Oct 2003, 807 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4750 times:

Quoting Btriple7 (Reply 1):
The most I can say right now is: CDG is a mess. It's a very nice airport but far too spread out for connecting.

CDG is no more a mess for connection then LHR or FRA or some of the bigest US airports!!!



Flying is amazing!
User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4927 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4698 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 7):
Star Airlines has become an Islandic owned company and their future and market is still somewhat sketchy.Knowing the islandic love for wet-leases,I presume their aircraft will become gap-fillers for foreign operators

Now part of the British XL Leisure Group and being renamed XL Airlines France. Avion, the Icelandic owners you refer too sold out a couple of months ago



Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4674 times:

Quoting Humberside (Reply 12):
Now part of the British XL Leisure Group and being renamed XL Airlines France. Avion, the Icelandic owners you refer too sold out a couple of months ago

You are absolutely right - I missed that point although I read about it -sorry for the wrong statement...



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7422 posts, RR: 57
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4655 times:

Quoting Icarus75 (Reply 11):
CDG is no more a mess for connection then LHR or FRA or some of the bigest US airports!!!

I agree that LHR is as "messy" as CDG ... but CDG is indeed a mess ! especially with the problem of all those remote parking stands you don't find at LHR or FRA.

CDG is perfect when you board your flight from Paris. For this, it is the best airport in the world, with the shortest walking distance from the entrance of the terminal to your plane, particularly at the Terminals 2A/B/C/D because that 's what they were conceived for.

But when you use CDG as a transit HUB, as AF does, it is a tremendous challenge everyday, believe me, and people don't imagine the work AF does everyday to minimize all those inconvinients...
Moreover, all the airlines using CDG including AF are tributary of ADP ... and ADP's effiency is not always "optimum" ...  duck 


User currently offlineRootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4186 posts, RR: 40
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4617 times:

Quoting Workhorse (Reply 3):
There's also Twin Jet, flying Beech 1900s on some thin regional routes.

http://www.twinjet.fr/

with that fleet i always thought the name twinjet was misleading !



A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
User currently offlineMagyarorszag From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4605 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 4):
you can add to your list the TGV.

That's really a good competition for AF. When you can cover something like 1000km in three hours from city center to city center, without having to make your way to the airport, through security check, and so on. I dont' know the price, is it expensive ?


User currently offlineVarig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1605 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4584 times:

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 16):
I dont' know the price, is it expensive ?

not really: a full fare would be equivalent to a normal airline Y fare
but there are so many reductions: family, old people, students etc etc that you can TGV for really cheap



AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE
User currently offlineBtriple7 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4581 times:

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 16):


Quoting FlySSC:
you can add to your list the TGV.

That's really a good competition for AF. When you can cover something like 1000km in three hours from city center to city center, without having to make your way to the airport, through security check, and so on. I dont' know the price, is it expensive ?

I agree. Except for maybe Japan, France has the best domestic train network in the world. AF should probably stick to the international markets. SNCF has its feet firmly planted on the ground in France. AF would be no match to this company.

Regards,
Btriple7



Just...fly.
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7422 posts, RR: 57
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4581 times:

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 16):
I dont' know the price, is it expensive ?

That's the problem for airlines, including AF : The TGV is offering very good fares ... a TGV ticket PARIS-MARSEILLE starts at 19€ one way, all taxes included... But even full fare is much lower than a full fare air ticket, that's the main reason why low cost airlines are not present that much on the French domestic market, except on PARIS-NICE, where the TGV is not a good competitor as it takes more than 5 hours.
But it's now 1h50 on Paris-LYON, 3h on Paris-Marseille, and it will start on Paris-Strasbourg next spring ...


User currently offlineBtriple7 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4574 times:

Also, the TGV website is light years ahead of any airline website I've ever seen.

Regards,
Btriple7



Just...fly.
User currently offlineMagyarorszag From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4565 times:

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 17):

Thanks.

Quoting Btriple7 (Reply 18):
France has the best domestic train network in the world

Perhaps on the TGV side...

Quoting Btriple7 (Reply 18):
SNCF has its feet firmly planted on the ground in France

... but don't go too fast for the rest of the network. An audit has been conducted by Swiss EPFL, and it appears that if the network is continuously maintained as it is today, by 2025 60% of it should be shut down, and almost only the high speed lines would remain in service.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 19):
a TGV ticket PARIS-MARSEILLE starts at 19€ one way

 eyepopping 

Regards

[Edited 2006-12-16 22:19:39]

User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4550 times:

But it will take RFF another 12 years to bring the TGV-rail-track from Nîmes to Perpignan-they talk about the stretch to Spain since 25 years....
The thread is nevertheless about aviation-even if the TGV is a great tool-it's part of a state-subsidized infrastructure .



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineMagyarorszag From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4528 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
Air Tahiti divorcing from previous ties with Air France

Why is that ? You mean TN ?


User currently offlineVarig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1605 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4501 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 22):
TGV is a great tool-it's part of a state-subsidized infrastructure

Oh yeah?? and ATC in france is a private company? it's 100% public money and you know it



AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE
25 Goldorak : yes. Beaucaire is right saying that TN & AF have "declared war". Code-sharing on CDG-LAX-PPT has been stopped since the beginning of the current wint
26 Varig md-11 : AF didn't like it so much that TN decided to develop a "hub" in PPT with public subsidies...therefore the war
27 Breiz : Any update on "L'avion", well Elysair or what ever?
28 Post contains links Varig md-11 : I am surprised to see US DOT has supposedly not given the green light.... sales have started www.lavion.fr I can't wait to see the purple 757 at ORY!
29 FoxXray : L'Avion will take delivery of the 757 (F-HAVN) this afternoon at ORY...
30 Post contains links and images AOMlover : Don't forget Europe Airpost as well ! I admit we don't hear much about them. Along with their freight activity, they operate passenger charter flights
31 Post contains links Toulouse : Great to see a French aviation thread. I really enjoy the very successful Irish aviation threads, and as an Irish citizen living in France for the pas
32 Gbfra : Given that there are only a limited number of large agglomerations in France (in fact there is only one large one, Paris), and given the strong compet
33 Varig md-11 : wrong: MRS and LYS are number 2 and 3 cities in France are quite large. The thing is that Paris Lyon Marseille are linked together by High Speed TGV:
34 Gbfra : Alright, Marseille and Lyon have more than one million inhabitants respectively, if you are including the regions around (the city of Lyon has only 46
35 Varig md-11 : Gbfra richtig, ile-de-france is a monster of soon 12 million people if you follow the last estimates...and from the center of Ile de France you connec
36 Gbfra : You are right. I'm travelling Frankfurt-Paris quite often (I've lived in Paris for nine years). At the moment I choose the airplane because the train
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