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KLM To Reappear And Then Disappear Again At EWR  
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4502 posts, RR: 72
Posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8506 times:

KLM is set to return to Newark with its own metal at the beginning of the summer 2007 timetable, when it takes over the daily AMS EWR operation from partner Northwest Airlines. Since the end of last November, NW has been operating a daily A333 on the route, and this arrangement is scheduled to continue until April 07, 2007.

On April 08, KLM will once again operate the Newark roundtrip as KL657/658 and will, for a short period of time, deploy the MD11 on the route. As the airline's 9th A332 arrives in May, the route will subsequently be changed to the A332 on May 27, yet KLM will only operate this arrangement for about a month.

On July 01, 2007, Northwest will once again take over the EWR route from KLM and operate a daily reconfigured B752 on the route with the following new timings:

NW063/KL6063 AMS EWR 1015 1240 daily B752
NW064/KL6064 EWR AMS 1645 0610 daily B752

The dereliction of the EWR route allows KLM to use the freed up A332 capacity to start a new early morning flight between AMS and JFK- part of the airline's new transatlantic mini departure bank at 8am -, which will operate according to the following schedule:

KL645/NW8645 AMS JFK 0815 1030 daily A332
KL646/NW8646 JFK AMS 1620 0600 daily A332

It is nevertheless striking that the AMS EWR route is about to experience quite a downgrade from its previous offerings. Only last year, KLM operated 9 weekly roundtrips (daily A332 + twice weekly B772ER) between AMS and EWR, and during the current low season, the route is seeing a daily A333. Now all of this is to be replaced by just a single B752, albeit compensated by extra capacity at JFK. Could it anyway be possible that KL/NW are planning to add extra frequencies to the AMS EWR route?

27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineACVitale From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 922 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8445 times:

It does seem odd. I far prefer connections in EWR to JFK when headed down to Florida on KLM. The CO codeshare is much better then the NWA via DTW/MEM/MSP

Also it seems KLM is now codesharing with DL on the ATL flights so again a new option of AMS-ATL-onwards.

Either way EWR is the preference.


User currently offlineEHHO From Bulgaria, joined Dec 2005, 815 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8374 times:

Wow.. I guess MD-11 must be quite a treat at EWR! I always prefer EWR to JFK; closer to downtown and more convenient for the pax.


"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
User currently offlinePaneuropean From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 882 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8344 times:

It is odd. You have cleared some things up HB-IWC. I initially thought the NW 63/64 would fly in addition to the KLM (and CO) flight. Now KLM is pulling out of EWR and doing a thrice JFK, it makes little sense to me.

Could it be that sky partner CO has something to do with it. To keep the competition low?....

What would make the best sense to me is the following:

AMS-JFK

twice KL (332,744)
once NW (332)

AMS-EWR

twice CO (764) in the winter replace one flight by a 753
once KL (332)


User currently offlineLamedianaranja From Venezuela, joined Nov 2004, 1246 posts, RR: 21
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8328 times:

I thought you were talking about KL641/14DEC that diverted to EWR for a little while due to the fog.

It wanted to get its passengers disembark right there but authorities wouldn't allow that so after a little while it took off (Triple7!) from EWR to JFK!



I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
User currently offlinePaneuropean From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 882 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8328 times:

Oh. And let's not forget Delta is also flying JFK-AMS, That makes NYC-AMS an enormous Sky tag-team-partner route.............

User currently offlineJano From Slovakia, joined Jan 2004, 827 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8220 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
It is nevertheless striking that the AMS EWR route is about to experience quite a downgrade from its previous offerings. Only last year, KLM operated 9 weekly roundtrips (daily A332 + twice weekly B772ER) between AMS and EWR, and during the current low season, the route is seeing a daily A333. Now all of this is to be replaced by just a single B752, albeit compensated by extra capacity at JFK. Could it anyway be possible that KL/NW are planning to add extra frequencies to the AMS EWR route?

I'm seeing in KVS availability tool (both in Amadeus Timemtable and Apollo: ITN) these flight
NW 64 leaving EWR at 16:45 and arriving AMS at 6:10+1, B752
and
KL 658 leaving EWr 16:30 and arriving AMS at 6:00+1 A332

However, on NWA.com only NW64/63 are being shown. I'm thinking the schedule might not be firmed up yet there for EWR-AMS flights.



The Widget Air Line :)
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7409 posts, RR: 57
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8184 times:

Note that Air France already "downgraded" its daily CDG-EWR-CDG to an A332 this winter, but more surprising AF plans to keep this Daily flight also with an A332 during the next summer season, while a 6th Daily frequency will be added on CDG-JFK.

In the past 7 years, CDG-EWR went from a DAILY B747 (and even 11 x Weekly in the summer in the late 90s/early 2000s) to a daily A343, and now A332... Sad


User currently offlinePanAm330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2672 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8021 times:

Quoting Paneuropean (Reply 3):
What would make the best sense to me is the following:

AMS-JFK

twice KL (332,744)
once NW (332)

AMS-EWR

twice CO (764) in the winter replace one flight by a 753
once KL (332)

Why? Why would you complicate things just to bring a NW 332 to JFK for one single flight? Also, a 753 wouldn't be the best choice of aircraft across the pond. The range is limited, and the plane can't do the route. I believe that CO's 753s are not ETOPS, either. Add to that the fact that CO has standardized all of their 'birds across the pond with BusinessFirst, something the 753s don't have, and probably will never have.
While it looks sad to see a flight downgraded to a narrowbody from previous widebody offerings, the North Atlantic market is becoming a crowded one. Perhaps the flight isn't doing as well as it used to with all of this competition these days.


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4502 posts, RR: 72
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8002 times:

Quoting Paneuropean (Reply 3):
I initially thought the NW 63/64 would fly in addition to the KLM (and CO) flight. Now KLM is pulling out of EWR and doing a thrice JFK, it makes little sense to me.

Initially, the plan was to have the Northwest operated EWR flight depart from the newly established 8am longhaul departure bank and have KLM operate the regular daily roundtrip in the 10am departure bank. A week or two ago, the NW operated flight was moved to the 10am bank and the new KLM-operated JFK flight was moved to the 8am bank. At that point the KLM-operated EWR flight got canceled.

Because of this move, the 8am transatlantic longhaul departure bank will consist of 2 NW operated flights (DTW and BOS) and 2 KLM operated flights (LAX and JFK). It remains to be seen whether this new concept, which is geared toward overnight longhaul connections from Africa, the Middle East, Asia and the Indian Subcontinent is gonna be a success. I, for one, wonder whether KL/NW will be able to fill a daily A332 to JFK and a 5 weekly B772ER to LAX without any European feed, so supported by only overnight longhaul traffic and a bit of the local market.

Quoting Jano (Reply 6):
KL 658 leaving EWr 16:30 and arriving AMS at 6:00+1 A332

You are right that this flight is still showing in the timetable, but if you call up the availability, it says 'canceled', so I guess it is off the schedules for now.


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8002 times:

Quoting Paneuropean (Reply 3):
twice CO (764) in the winter replace one flight by a 753

As you may know, CO does not send 753s across the Atlantic.......CO flies a 764ER yearround on the EWR-AMS route and adds an additional 752 for the busy summer season. CO has used 752, 762, 764 and 777 on the EWR-AMS route, in various combinations, in recent years.


-----

Concerning the KL/NW EWR-AMS flight, this is a surprising downgrade, I was under the (false) impression that two flights would operate on the route: the existing widebody flight (which as gone back and forth between KL and NW and has been flown with a variety of types over the past couple of years) PLUS the 752 flight.....similiar to the BOS-AMS operation which will now have two flights per day, one with the ""new"" NW transatlantic 752s.

There are a few possible explanations for this move:

-KL/NW feels that it needs more seats and can make more money out of JFK, thus the swap. DL only offers one flight on the JFK-AMS route, and that service is not the greatest of performers.

-KL/NW is reducing seats at EWR in favor of SkyTeam partner CO, which is very strong at EWR (not likely, although all of the subject airlines are in Skyteam, they remain strong competitors).

-Its simply an aircraft issue for this Summer: KL will soon be phasing out the 763ERs and the last of the originally ordered (10th) A332 to be delivered will not show up until early 2008, NW will have completed its phase out of the DC10 and still has undelivered A333s, etc.....maybe the 752 is the only thing available for he EWR-AMS service for this one season.


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5566 posts, RR: 36
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7879 times:

Quoting EHHO (Reply 2):
Wow.. I guess MD-11 must be quite a treat at EWR! I always prefer EWR to JFK; closer to downtown and more convenient for the pax.

Actually the distances between "downtown" and EWR or JFK are about the same, of course depending on the exact place you want to go. JFK though has an advantage: the taxis between JFK and Manhattan are cheaper than from EWR.


User currently offlineKiramakora From Argentina, joined Aug 2006, 547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7713 times:

Quoting EHHO (Reply 2):
I always prefer EWR to JFK; closer to downtown and more convenient for the pax.

With the JFK Skytrain, isn't it actually faster and cheaper to transfer to Manhattan than from EWR?


User currently offlinePaneuropean From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 882 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7627 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 10):
As you may know, CO does not send 753s across the Atlantic.......CO flies a 764ER yearround on the EWR-AMS route and adds an additional 752 for the busy summer season. CO has used 752, 762, 764 and 777 on the EWR-AMS route, in various combinations, in recent years.

Excuse me, that's what I meant....... The Boeing 757~200.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 10):
Concerning the KL/NW EWR-AMS flight, this is a surprising downgrade, I was under the (false) impression that two flights would operate on the route: the existing widebody flight (which as gone back and forth between KL and NW and has been flown with a variety of types over the past couple of years) PLUS the 752 flight.....similiar to the BOS-AMS operation which will now have two flights per day, one with the ""new"" NW transatlantic 752s.

Yep, That's what I thought, but after years and years of serving JFK twice daily, KLM has reduced service to Kennedy after they started service to Newark in the late 90's to eleven weekly flights during the winter.....

It seems that for some reason they are focussing more on JFK again flying a third flight, instead of expanding from EWR.

I never flew into Newark, but it seems like a a more convenient airport. I do know that they want to fly the "KLM- product" into one of the few destinations where they could fly with enough O/D demand.

Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 8):
Why? Why would you complicate things just to bring a NW 332 to JFK for one single flight? Also, a 753 wouldn't be the best choice of aircraft across the pond. The range is limited, and the plane can't do the route. I believe that CO's 753s are not ETOPS, either. Add to that the fact that CO has standardized all of their 'birds across the pond with BusinessFirst, something the 753s don't have, and probably will never have.
While it looks sad to see a flight downgraded to a narrowbody from previous widebody offerings, the North Atlantic market is becoming a crowded one. Perhaps the flight isn't doing as well as it used to with all of this competition these days.

Northwest has been doing that for years and will continue to do so in the future from Amsterdam to the Big Apple. I am just bringing an alternative for the new downgraded NW 752 flight to Newark next summer.


User currently offlineCO738 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7329 times:

This doesn't sound right to me... I pass by the Turnpike thats I-95 for those who are not from Jersey all the time and i see the KLM A332 parked in its usual stand at terminal B except once i did see the NW A333 sitting there.


If only you could install an air horn on a plane...
User currently offlineContinentalAUS From United States of America, joined May 2006, 55 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6791 times:

A KLM 777 landed right behind my CO flight this past July.


Sic'em Bears
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4502 posts, RR: 72
Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6627 times:

Strangely enough, although the number of weekly flights between Amsterdam and the New York area will increase next summer to 28 from 23 last year, the total number of seats will actually slightly decline:

Summer 2006

KL641 AMS JFK (daily B772)
KL643 AMS JFK (4 x B74E, 2 x B772, 1 x B744)
KL657 AMS EWR (daily A332)
KL659 AMS EWR (2 x B772)

Total number of seats 805C/6057Y = 6863 seats


Summer 2007

KL641 AMS JFK (daily A332)
KL643 AMS JFK (4 x B74E, 2 x B772, 1 x B744)
KL645 AMS JFK (daily A332)
NW063 AMS EWR (daily B752)

Total number of seats 812C/5984Y = 6796 seats


EWR is nevertheless experiencing a large decrease in the total number of seats, whereas JFK is seeing reinforced seat capacity:

EWR

2006 - 280/2131 = 2411 seats
2007 - 112/1008 = 1120 seats or a 54% decrease in total number of seats


JFK

2006 - 525/3926 = 4451 seats
2007 - 700/4976 = 5676 seats or a 28% increase in total number of seats


Aircraft Configurations

NW B752 16/144
KL A332 30/221
KL B772 35/292
KL B74E 42/228
KL B744 42/386


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7536 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6523 times:

Quoting Paneuropean (Reply 3):
It is odd. You have cleared some things up HB-IWC. I initially thought the NW 63/64 would fly in addition to the KLM (and CO) flight

It is.

Quoting Jano (Reply 6):
However, on NWA.com only NW64/63 are being shown. I'm thinking the schedule might not be firmed up yet there for EWR-AMS flights.

Both KL and NW will operate a flight.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 16):
Summer 2007

KL641 AMS JFK (daily A332)
KL643 AMS JFK (4 x B74E, 2 x B772, 1 x B744)
KL645 AMS JFK (daily A332)
NW063 AMS EWR (daily B752)

wrong for EWR

PARS confirms:

AMS-EWR
KL 657 Dep: 9:30a Arr: 11:45a A332
NW 63 Dep: 10:15a Arr: 12:40p 757-200

EWR-AMS
KL 658 Dep: 4:30p Arr: 6:00a A332
NW 64 Dep: 4:45p Arr: 6:10a 757-200.

From July:
JFK-AMS
KL 646 Dep: 4:20p Arr: 6:00a A332
KL 642 Dep: 6:20p Arr: 8:00a A332
KL 644 Dep: 10:10p Arr: 11:20a 772/747M Becomes 772 at end of July.

AMS-JFK
KL 645 Dep: 8:15a Arr: 10:30a A332
KL 641 Dep: 1:30p Arr: 3:45p A332
KL 643 Dep: 6:30p Arr: 8:15p 772/747M Becomes 772 at end of July.

For June
JFK-AMS
KL 642 Dep: 6:10p Arr: 7:45a 772
KL 644 Dep: 10:10p Arr: 11:15/11:20 74M/772 It shows both 777 and 74M for this flight right now.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4502 posts, RR: 72
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6450 times:

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 17):
Both KL and NW will operate a flight.



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 17):
wrong for EWR

You are wrong. KL657/658 will be canceled from July 1 when KL645/646 starts operating, at which time only the NW operated flight will remain on AMS EWR. The schedules for KL657/658 are still in the CRS, but if you call up the availability, you will see that the flight is canceled.


User currently offlineJano From Slovakia, joined Jan 2004, 827 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6383 times:

Before in the morning I guess I did not check KL, only NW in KVS in Apollo: ITN. Here it is clearly:

[KVS Availability Tool 2.6.1/Platinum - Apollo: ITN/US-TNT]

EWR Newark Int'l NJ US [KEWR]
AMS Amsterdam-Schiphol NL [EHAM]
TUE 03 Jul 2007

request for NW:
NW/KL 8658 EWR 16:30 AMS 06:00 +1 332 0 J9 C9 Z0 Y9 B9 M9 H9 Q9

request for KL:
KL 658 EWR 16:30 AMS 06:00 +1 0 CANCELLED

For some reason NW coded flight shows availability, but KL coded flight is cancelled. I checked a few more days in July and KL 658 was cancelled on all those days.

[Edited 2006-12-17 07:25:21]


The Widget Air Line :)
User currently offlineACVitale From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 922 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6372 times:

Considering every time I flew into NYC with KLM (Either JFK or EWR) at lease half of the passengers were from early AM arrivals off of Africa/Middle East flights it could have worked. It would have given a big boost against BA.

User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4502 posts, RR: 72
Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6270 times:

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 20):
Considering every time I flew into NYC with KLM (Either JFK or EWR) at lease half of the passengers were from early AM arrivals off of Africa/Middle East flights it could have worked.

That is the reason KL/NW are starting an early morning departure to JFK. KL645 will leave AMS at 8.15am, and is completely geared toward overnight longhaul arrivals from Africa, the Middle East and the Indian Subcontinent. Other flights in this new early morning departure bank will include LAX, DTW (already existing) and BOS.

Quoting Jano (Reply 19):
For some reason NW coded flight shows availability, but KL coded flight is cancelled. I checked a few more days in July and KL 658 was cancelled on all those days.

The KL657/658 AMS EWR AMS flights have been canceled not so long ago, so I guess that NW has not yet updated its information. It is clear the KL-operated flight is off effective July 01, when KLM starts operating the early morning JFK rotation with the freed up A332 equipment. EWR is then down to a daily NW-operated B752, unless there are further additions to the EWR schedule still in the pipeline.


User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6065 times:

A 757? That thing will be packed full... I mean it's a short enough flight, but still. The 757 just isn't the same experience as an MD-11, A330, or 777. I hope the 757 is in addition to something else, even if it is just one of KL's 763's.

If I am flying into NYC, or even changing planes, EWR is by far by favorite airport, being that it is easier to get to/from, and it's easier to navigate and is less hectic than JFK. I hope they don't let it go by the wayside... it is after all a SkyTeam hub.... then again, even compared with a KL A332/MD-11 or a NW A333, a CO 764 would likely still be a nicer ride across the pond from EWR-AMS.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlinePaneuropean From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 882 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5722 times:

Quoting CO738 (Reply 14):
This doesn't sound right to me... I pass by the Turnpike thats I-95 for those who are not from Jersey all the time and i see the KLM A332 parked in its usual stand at terminal B except once i did see the NW A333 sitting there.

When I check KLM timetables over the years, I see that Northwest has flown both AMS-JFK/EWR for several seasons (DC10,747). One of the reasons could be the lack of KLM metal.

Nonetheless momentarily NW has no flight to JFK...... also because KLM prefers to offer it's own product on one of their main routes instead of sharing it with NW.

Flying to Kennedy was easy to plan for NW, because arriving from i.d. Detroit, they scheduled this aircraft AMS-JFK-AMS instead of JFK-AMS-JFK. This meant this would a better fit with KLM's flight to JFK.

routing for a NW aircraft could be DTW/AMS/JFK/AMS/DTW


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 24, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5610 times:

Quoting Paneuropean (Reply 23):
Nonetheless momentarily NW has no flight to JFK...... also because KLM prefers to offer it's own product on one of their main routes instead of sharing it with NW

NW has rarely flown the JFK-AMS route......the only time that I can recall NW aircraft on the JFK-AMS route was when NW used the 744s that flew JFK-Tokyo on a JFK-AMS turn. It was a short lived experiment and operationally challenging, plus that fact that NW was operating the historic KL641 did not sit well with many Dutch people.

Being the KL and NW share reveneue on all transatlantic services, and are supposed to offer the same level of services and have a comprable WBC (some agree, some dont, but that is the official idea), it should not make a difference whether you are on a NW or KL airplane. That being said, NW does seem to fly most of the flights from AMS to its hub cities (although KL did fly the MEM flight for years) and the flights from AMS to BOS, SEA and EWR with KL flying most other services. EWR has gone back and forth over the years as noted above, it was a NW DC10 for a long time and then revereted to a KL 763ER.

I think the EWR-AMS situation this summer is simply an allocation of resources.....the third JFK-AMS flight means cut backs on other services to the NYC area.


25 Post contains images Paneuropean : Maybe I was too optimistic on that one, still I remember KLM and NWA sharing this route on paper, being it both KL and NW metal. I am sure you know h
26 HB-IWC : I seem to remember there that the NRT-JFK-AMS-JFK-NRT operational cycle wouldn't fit into a 48-hour window, so the airline still needed 3 frames to m
27 Post contains links Jano : Check this thread NWA 330 Delivery Schedule (by Azjubilee Dec 17 2006 in Civil Aviation) Considering that NW still has 8 more to be delivered (I do no
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