Safs From Australia, joined Dec 2005, 199 posts, RR: 0 Posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 1499 times:
2500 Qantas pilots may attempt to submit $50000 each to purchase a 1% share in QF to block the sale to the Macquarie group due to fears of massive job cuts.
Qantas pilots may attempt to block the $11 billion planned sale of the airline by each investing $50,000 of their own money, News Limited newspapers report.
The stake by 2,500 pilots would form part of a union campaign to encourage shareholders to reject the $5.60-a-share offer by the private equity consortium backed by Macquarie Bank.
If the sale proceeds, unions are worried the new consortium would slash jobs, sell Qantas assets, cut regional routes and send maintenance work offshore to pay off debt.
The pilots' investment would amount to $110 million or one per cent of the stock.
The consortium has said previously the deal would fail unless it acquires 90 per cent of the stock necessary to force the compulsory acquisition of the other 10 per cent.
Australian and International Pilots Association (AIPA) president Ian Woods said enough shareholders refusing to sell could tip the pilots to make their move.
"It's an option that the pilots would consider and it may well be in their long-term interest but not until the eight or nine per cent (of people not willing to sell) is forthcoming," Mr Woods told News Limited.
Unions have launched a campaign to urge shareholders not to sell.
"They make a few bucks if they sell now, depending on when they bought, but they will forego a good long-term investment," ACTU airlines spokesman Richard Watts said.
ANstar From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 2298 posts, RR: 3 Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 1470 times:
I can't see this working. Most people probably bought their shares for $2.50 to $3.00 so it is nearly double their money back.
Most of the major shareholders are investment banks or funds - I can't see them supporting the pilots and losing such a big return.
Antskip From Australia, joined Jan 2006, 782 posts, RR: 4 Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 1446 times:
Quoting ANstar (Reply 2): Most people probably bought their shares for $2.50 to $3.00 so it is nearly double their money back. Most of the major shareholders are investment banks or funds - I can't see them supporting the pilots and losing such a big return.
One of the things this takeover offer has shown to all is that QF shares have been substantially under-valued. If the shares are sold off, the sellers get the short-term capital gain, but lose out on future capital gains (though at a slightly slower rate) and future returns. i.e. they lose their ownership - that's quite a loss for a stake in a company with a very rosy future (provided they don't sell it into the proposed debt-based regime).
Curmudgeon From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 692 posts, RR: 15 Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 1281 times:
Well, I think the pilots have just destroyed their own shaky credibility with this ill-advised move.
The pilot group have never even tried to counter Dixon's lies about pay and conditions in the press. If they can't be bothered to even try to manage perceptions they're going to lose the P.R. battle against a guy taking a $60,000,000 windfall bonus.
The funny thing is that the pilot's story is a good one, and easy enough to sell, but now they have gone and made it about something else.
Antares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 25 Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 1242 times:
I think these conclusions are spot on. Many if not most of us would know professional experienced pilots and count them as good friends and full of interesting information.
But, alas, they are also more often than not incredibly ill-informed about the wide world they fly over, easy pickings for con artists (have I got an emu/olive/llama/crocodile skin farm for you) and like many professions including financial services and analysts, burdened with self importance.
I seriously doubt that anything the pilots do will change the outcome, which I believe is still poised very delicately between government approval/disapproval.
In others words, they could go on strike for weeks, and for all the inconvenience that causes, not prove to be the crucial factor in a private/public Qantas decision.
Antskip From Australia, joined Jan 2006, 782 posts, RR: 4 Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 1211 times:
Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 7): I think the pilots have just destroyed their own shaky credibility with this ill-advised move
Any doubts on credibility of the pilots is not in the same league as that of QF management, who will accept a pay-out, if the deal succeeds, of what amounts to a bribe. At the very least, the promised payment to management shows a fundamental conflict of interest between management's role to properly run QF and their desire to pocket sufficient money to make QF's future irrelevant to their personal futures. How can they make a good decision on the change of ownership if central to that change is a massive increase in their bank balances? At least the QF pilots are connecting their personal futures to the future of QF - and they are not directly being paid extra if QF changes ownership. What they propose will actually cost them money! If there is to be any pay-out / compensation accompanying a change to a regime of much less future certainty, the reduction of assets, and a huge increase in debt, it should go to every employee of QF, not just the desk-bound money-crunchers. The present proposal dangerously alienates the whole work-force except a few who are set to benefit financially in an obscene and cynical manner. That is not good and proper management or guardianship, though it may be good personal finance for those being paid to help the proposal get over the line. The question I have is : would QF management have approved the change of ownership and a massive change in the company's future path without being paid so much to agree to it?
Curmudgeon From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 692 posts, RR: 15 Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 1156 times:
Quoting Antskip (Reply 9): Any doubts on credibility of the pilots is not in the same league as that of QF management, who will accept a pay-out, if the deal succeeds, of what amounts to a bribe
except that the executive directors who will reap the rewards did not vote on the sale. The board has clearly told the market: Dixon has a plan. We think at $5.60 you should sell out now, because even money is that the plan won't work (otherwise, don't sell and reap even more returns in the future)
Quoting Antskip (Reply 9): At least the QF pilots are connecting their personal futures to the future of QF - and they are not directly being paid extra if QF changes ownership. What they propose will actually cost them money!
Yes...dumb idea, isn't it? The QF pilots are already wedded to the company by the seniority system. They have a dog in this fight without also risking money. Why not simply exercise what industrial actions are available? No investment risk, possibly no worse outcomes. If the pilots wait until JQ really is quadrupled in size, they'll have no hope.
Quoting Antskip (Reply 9): The present proposal dangerously alienates the whole work-force except a few who are set to benefit financially in an obscene and cynical manner
Australia1 From , joined today!, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 1084 times:
Quoting Antares (Reply 8): I seriously doubt that anything the pilots do will change the outcome, which I believe is still poised very delicately between government approval/disapproval.
Hardly, it's a done deal. Lots of posturing by politicians & QF management, but this will get up. You don't line up $11B in financing not to have all bases coverd before announcing it.
Get used to a new Americanised Qantas. Only unknown is whether the unions will call a strike now or later.
FAA-fly another airline in the meantime to:-
1) show disapproval with QF
2) save yourself from being inconvenienced when caught up in a strike
(note: QF already having problems with unions now, ie. before last weeks announcement - eg. look at mess at QF domestic check in at BNE)
Baroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 7071 posts, RR: 27 Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 945 times:
Quoting Antskip (Reply 9): Any doubts on credibility of the pilots is not in the same league as that of QF management, who will accept a pay-out, if the deal succeeds, of what amounts to a bribe.
Management actions are at least as dodgy as paying trucking fees, more dodgy in many ways.
Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 10): except that the executive directors who will reap the rewards did not vote on the sale. The board has clearly told the market: Dixon has a plan. We think at $5.60 you should sell out now, because even money is that the plan won't work (otherwise, don't sell and reap even more returns in the future)
Well of course Dixon has a plan, someone is paying him $60 million to have a plan, and who knows what else had been splashed around. So we know a little about the management fees for sitting by for a takeover, but we know exactly what they want us to know about other matters. There may be nothing to know, but how, as Rumsfeld notoriously said can we know about the unknown unknowns?
JetMech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 1836 posts, RR: 31 Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 899 times:
Quoting Safs (Thread starter): 2500 Qantas pilots may attempt to submit $50000 each to purchase a 1% share in QF to block the sale to the Macquarie group due to fears of massive job cuts.
I pretty much lack any knowledge of business, commerce or the economy, so can someone explain how the proposed purchase of a 1% share of QANTAS will prevent this sale .
The universe revolves around engineers as we choose the co-ordinate system!
Curmudgeon From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 692 posts, RR: 15 Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 743 times:
Quoting JetMech (Reply 13): I pretty much lack any knowledge of business, commerce or the economy, so can someone explain how the proposed purchase of a 1% share of QANTAS will prevent this sale .
The way it works, as I understand it, is the pilots buy shares at the top of the market to entice others to ignore the real and immediate profits to be had against the certain price reduction if they succeed.
This plan will be seen as proof that QF pilots may be incapable of reasoning at the adult level, and thus should be prevented from flying the airline's planes.
This will render the airline worthless, and scare off the raiders.
AJ From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 2285 posts, RR: 22 Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 740 times:
Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 15): This plan will be seen as proof that QF pilots may be incapable of reasoning at the adult level, and thus should be prevented from flying the airline's planes.
Curmudgeon From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 692 posts, RR: 15 Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 703 times:
I just watched the video and am still underwhelmed, AJ. I find this whole idea too much the clutching at straws, and in the same vein as the dispute. The question I have in both cases is why not simply exercise traditional remedies? (Get all the ducks in a row, decide on where the line in the sand is, then strike for it?) JQ won't be able to operate more than 10% of the schedule...it simply takes the vision and the courage to control the agenda.
In the same way, I don't hear the pilots' story being conveyed anywhere. Why isn't there an ad campaign to get the message out and counter Dixon's lies?
The QF pilots also, as an aside, may need to start some serious benchmarking against the other major carriers, including the Chapter 11 ones, to see where you are in terms of pay and conditions, and be prepared to accept change if there are some areas that are indefensible. That Ian Woods seems like a nice fellow...why don't you guys get with Doug Cameron? I see his troops at JQ are on the same wages as at QF, which is more than the pilots can say.
JetMech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 1836 posts, RR: 31 Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 681 times:
Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 15): The way it works, as I understand it, is the pilots buy shares at the top of the market to entice others to ignore the real and immediate profits to be had against the certain price reduction if they succeed.
So; let me see if I understand this correctly. The QF pilots are so sure that the sale will be bad for the company as a whole, that they are willing to put their money where their mouths are so to speak, by making a personal monetary loss to prevent the sale?
The universe revolves around engineers as we choose the co-ordinate system!
Curmudgeon From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 692 posts, RR: 15 Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 665 times:
Well, I was being cruel before, as I know that you know. (this is a known known). What I think is that the pilot association leadership feel that this is their best way to get a seat at the table.
The major flaw in the plan is the idea that they can inspire a further 9.01% of the shares to remain unsold, thereby keeping the deal from reaching the 90% consummation point. Once again, this requires strangers to believe that they will see higher returns in the future if the pilots prevail. It also, as a practical matter, would require the board to resign, as well as management changes.
This still mystifies me how they expect to have any credibility with serious people after this. They didn't address the obvious issues of JQ when they had a chance a few years ago, now they are trying to stuff that genie back into the bottle, and doing it the wrong way.
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