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AA293 Diverts Back To DEL 12/17  
User currently offlineAA787823 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 10036 times:

On 12/17 AA293 lost their #2 engine at V2 on take off from DEL (compressor stall). The flight flew the pattern whilst dumping fuel and landed safely back at DEL 12 minutes later. The flight did cancel.

62 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2521 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 10029 times:

Quoting AA787823 (Thread starter):
On 12/17 AA293 lost their #2 engine at V2 on take off from DEL (compressor stall). The flight flew the pattern whilst dumping fuel and landed safely back at DEL 12 minutes later. The flight did cancel.

That sucks. Will they be able to repair the bad engine in any reasonable amount of time? I'm assuming the pax stuck in DEL will be booked on other carriers and that AA will move another 777 over to cover the route.

Better to have a compressor stall at V2, than while cruising over who-knows-where!

777fan



DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
User currently offlineBALAX From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 187 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 10028 times:

Ouch, tons of holiday passengers I bet. What's the best option for misconnects?

User currently offline777WT From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 877 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 9962 times:

Quoting BALAX (Reply 2):
What's the best option for misconnects?

Put them on other flights that has room and will go to the airport it was intended on the route of the now out-of-service aircraft, or give the pax an option of waiting for the spare plane to come.


User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 21
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 9955 times:

Awesome news.

In the old days, losing an engine on takeoff more often than not meant loss of life as well.

So who does AA contract out to in Delhi to take care of problems such as this? Or, are they going to charter a freighter to haul a new engine and the mechanics to install it. (As some airlines do)

Sidenote. In the early days, engine failures were so frequent for TWA that they had a special aircraft just to ferry jet engines to broken-down airliners all around Europe.

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User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31712 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 9849 times:

Quoting Stirling (Reply 4):
Sidenote. In the early days, engine failures were so frequent for TWA that they had a special aircraft just to ferry jet engines to broken-down airliners all around Europe.

What type were the Engine problems on.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineAirxliban From Lebanon, joined Oct 2003, 4518 posts, RR: 53
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9738 times:

Quoting Stirling (Reply 4):
Sidenote. In the early days, engine failures were so frequent for TWA that they had a special aircraft just to ferry jet engines to broken-down airliners all around Europe.

Ah yes! The good old motor toter! Thanks for sharing the photo.



PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
User currently offlineNimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3284 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9721 times:

Glad this was all safe! And definitely glad that this happened while still in India, I would hate to have to land in one of the colder countries to the north of India - without adequate clothing!

Keep us updated as to the status of the pax and the aircraft.



Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
User currently offlineAA787823 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9513 times:

Quoting Stirling (Reply 4):
So who does AA contract out to in Delhi to take care of problems such as this? Or, are they going to charter a freighter to haul a new engine and the mechanics to install it. (As some airlines do)

Yes AA will likely charter a Russian freighter an Antanov ???? that will also likely include a "Field Trip" (permission slips from your parents not needed), of mechanics to go work on it. I heard the cost of the whole program to get the engine to a foreign land, plus the field trip, and the lost revenue (1 A/C short in the system now) is over $1,000,000.00


User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9498 times:

Quoting Nimish (Reply 7):
I would hate to have to land in one of the colder countries to the north of India - without adequate clothing!

Had this happened, the flight would have likely continued on or diverted to a more hospitable location (somewhere in Scandinavia or elsewhere in Europe). The 777 can fly for a considerable distance with one engine.



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9473 times:

Quoting Ssides (Reply 9):
Had this happened, the flight would have likely continued on or diverted to a more hospitable location (somewhere in Scandinavia or elsewhere in Europe). The 777 can fly for a considerable distance with one engine.

While it's true that the 777 can fly or a considerable distance only only one engine, diverting to a more distant "hospitable" location isn't the likely option that you think it is. We (US-registered airlines) have these pesky things called FARs that we have to abide by, and one of them states, in essence, that if you're in a twin and lose an engine, you land at the nearest suitable airport in point-of-time. "Nearest suitable" is in the context of "operationally suitable" as in being the airport being able to safely handle the aircraft as far as runway length, etc., and not "customer service suitable".

Sec. 121.565 - Engine inoperative: Landing; reporting.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, whenever an engine of an airplane fails or whenever the rotation of an engine is stopped to prevent possible damage, the pilot in command shall land the airplane at the nearest suitable airport, in point of time, at which a safe landing can be made.

[Edited 2006-12-18 17:18:31]

User currently offlineAA787823 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9457 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 10):
While it's true that the 777 can fly or a considerable distance only only one engine, diverting to a more distant "hospitable" location isn't the likely option that you think it is. We (US-registered airlines) have these pesky things called FARs that we have to abide by, and one of them states, in essence, that if you're in a twin and lose an engine, you land at the nearest suitable airport in point-of-time. "Nearest suitable" means "operationally suitable" as in being the airport being able to safely handle the aircraft as far as runway length, etc., and not "customer service suitable".

Oh so true, remember the NW DC10 that diverted to THR?


User currently offlineCheckraiser From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9424 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 10):
whenever an engine of an airplane fails or whenever the rotation of an engine is stopped to prevent possible damage, the pilot in command shall land the airplane at the nearest suitable airport, in point of time, at which a safe landing can be made.

So BA is exempt from these rules?  stirthepot 


User currently offlineJjbiv From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1226 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9408 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 10):
...US-registered airlines...

You mean certificated?  Wink Sorry, it's my favorite "FAA word."

I'm curious, though, to know if there is an FAR requirement regarding engines that are not fully operative but have not failed (e.g. not capable of producing full rated thrust but still able to run without damage.) Can you continue on (albeit perhaps unwise) as long as the engine doesn't fail or require an in-flight shutdown? Perhaps a concrete example would be the requirement to do a non-derated takeoff every so often; if maximum thrust isn't there can the flight continue on per normal?

Joe


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9817 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9398 times:

Those passengers probably ended up with quite a wait in DEL. AA would probably need to rebook passengers on other airlines, but flights out of DEL almost all leave in the middle of the night, so by the time this ordeal was over, there would be no options for flights that connect through Europe for another full day. This will be an expensive failure, especially if the flight had a high load factor.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9361 times:

Quoting AA787823 (Reply 11):
Oh so true, remember the NW DC10 that diverted to THR?

Nah, I missed that one...

Quoting Jjbiv (Reply 13):
You mean certificated? Sorry, it's my favorite "FAA word."

Yes. (I had my FAA-ese translator "off")  Wink

Quoting Checkraiser (Reply 12):
So BA is exempt from these rules?

Sorry, I'm not going to touch that one with a 10-foot (3.048 meter) pole...  Wink

Quoting Jjbiv (Reply 13):
I'm curious, though, to know if there is an FAR requirement regarding engines that are not fully operative but have not failed (e.g. not capable of producing full rated thrust but still able to run without damage.) Can you continue on (albeit perhaps unwise) as long as the engine doesn't fail or require an in-flight shutdown?

I think the FAA would take the position that if it's not fully operative, it has "failed" in the sense that it's not operating as designed, desired, or intended. It may sound like sematics, but dealing with FAA on semantic (or other) issues can be like wrestling a pig--you can do so, and you'll get really dirty in the process, but after awhile you come to the realization that the pig really enjoys it...  Wink


User currently offlineJjbiv From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1226 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9339 times:

So, hypothetically, you'd air return or divert one of your flights for such an issue or would a hypothetical crew just sit on the problem and write it up upon arrival?

Thanks for the response!

Joe


User currently offlineAlbird87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9314 times:

Quoting BALAX (Reply 2):
What's the best option for misconnects?

I guess if there was a going to be a long time for the Aircraft to be fixed then a the passengers would probs be put on a BA flight to LHR and then back onto AA for ORD. Im guessing that if they really wanted to go then PIA also serve ORD from nearby Islamabad so they might have put passengers on that. Also if just wondering then if AA could just fly the plane on one engine to an airport that they could then replace the engine as it might be cheaper that way. Perhaps fly it to Europe (LHR or another base that would use T7s) for repairs???


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9817 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 9194 times:

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 17):
Also if just wondering then if AA could just fly the plane on one engine to an airport that they could then replace the engine as it might be cheaper that way. Perhaps fly it to Europe (LHR or another base that would use T7s) for repairs???

I don't believe that the 777 is certified for one engine ferry flights. Four engine airplanes are typically certified for ferry flights with one less engine, but I don't think there is a chance for a twin. DEL is a big airport and Air India operates 777s from DEL. The airport can handle the situation if AA or some contractor brings in additional technical suport. It isn't as if the plane diverted to Tibet. It's in one of the largest cities in the world.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9077 times:

Quoting Jjbiv (Reply 16):
So, hypothetically, you'd air return or divert one of your flights for such an issue or would a hypothetical crew just sit on the problem and write it up upon arrival?

Hypothetically, I'd expect a crew to follow the applicable QRH procedure.  Wink

If I'm advised of an inflight problem, I'll also check the QRH, so as to ensure something hypothetically hasn't been missed, the weather doesn't preclude a desired action, and to coordinate the ground end of anything that needs to be accomplished.

If a hypothetical crew shuts down an engine on a twin and hypothetically tells me he doesn't want to go to the nearest suitable airport in favor of a more distant airport XYZ (which is in a warmer clime, has a great crew hotel, and/or has better happy hour specials), they're still the PIC and ultimately responsible, but you can be sure that I'd declare an emergency, and take whatever action(s) I felt necessary to get the aircraft on the safely as soon as possible. None of that may end up stopping him/her from going to XYZ, but my license would be far less at risk from a non-hypothetical FAA than his/hers would.

All "hypothetical", of course...  Wink


User currently offlineJjbiv From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1226 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8991 times:

OPNLguy, thanks for the hypothetical response explaining how things work in the equally non-hypothetical real world  Wink

User currently offlineAlbird87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8940 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 18):
DEL is a big airport and Air India operates 777s from DEL

Ah forgot that!! do Air India use Rolls Royce engines like AA? perhaps they can then get Air India to do some work on it to get it back to ORD for an inspection.

If this compressor failure had happened half way into the flight or lets say 3 hours out of ORD, would they have just continued on?


User currently offlineLHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8901 times:

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 21):
do Air India use Rolls Royce engines like AA?

No, they are ex-UAL machines and I think they're powered by Pratt & Whitney 4090's. (But could be wrong!)


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9817 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8893 times:

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 21):
If this compressor failure had happened half way into the flight or lets say 3 hours out of ORD, would they have just continued on?

If they were three hours out of ORD, they'd probably be over the North American continent, which would have provided for ample diversion airports. 777s have ended up in places like Yellowknife Canada before in the event of an engine failure. Continuing on to ORD on a single engine is not a safe idea.

The only time they would continue on was if they were already in contact with ORD approach. They may be closer to MKE, GRR or wherever else, but probably would end up at ORD if they had an engine shutdown during descent.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8891 times:

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 21):
If this compressor failure had happened half way into the flight or lets say 3 hours out of ORD, would they have just continued on?



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 10):
Sec. 121.565 - Engine inoperative: Landing; reporting.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, whenever an engine of an airplane fails or whenever the rotation of an engine is stopped to prevent possible damage, the pilot in command shall land the airplane at the nearest suitable airport, in point of time, at which a safe landing can be made.

[Edited 2006-12-18 22:04:24]

25 Cubastar : In that era, mostly P&W2800's and Wright3350's (turbocompound were the worse). DC-6s (and maybe earlier Connies) used the 2800 and DC-7s and later Co
26 Azjubilee : I think I'd rather not have an engine failure at V2. When you're at V2 you've been airborne for a few seconds and in a very critical phase of flight.
27 WildcatYXU : Since when is BA US registered? Not to mention that it was a 4 holer...
28 Post contains images OPNLguy : His at the end of his message suggests that he indeed already knows this, and was only saying it for effect...
29 Stylo777 : what about the NW THR diversion??? please give me more details on that!
30 Konrad : I am curious how much fuel could it dump in just 12 minutes? Wasn't it close to a full load upon departure?
31 OPNLguy : I found this on another site: Generally, in a commercial jet airplane, there is usually a fairly big difference between the maximum take off weight a
32 OPNLguy : Excepted from a post elsewhere from about 4 years ago, FWIW... For the 777, (at least the -200 version) Fuel Jettison rate with both nozzles and over
33 Post contains images Mk777 : What is V2?? I am still learning!!!
34 Post contains images LHR777 : Well, you learn something new every day. That might help my waistband after christmas.....
35 Willyj : I thought V2 was the speed just before the plane rotates off the runway. Isn't V1 the speed where the plane has to continue on with take-off due to sp
36 Post contains links OPNLguy : I won't rehash all of them, but the ones you're looking for are (in order of use during a takeoff) are V1, VR, VLOF, and V2. Check out the definition
37 PanAmOldDC8 : Not necessarily. remember that back in those days all aircraft had 4 engines, loosing one on take off was not a major problem as long as you were off
38 Post contains images Wingnut767 : Losing an engine does not allow that luxury. Especially on a twin Wrong!! anytime after V1 is a bad time to lose an engine. Losing it cruising over w
39 Jetdeltamsy : AA is not going to reposition an aircraft to New Delhi. It's too far. Way too far.
40 Comorin : Question: Wouldn't the DEL-ORD flightpath be over the Himalayas? Surely it wouldn't be wise to fly over 25,000 ft peaks on one engine, or does it not
41 Post contains images OPNLguy : A moot issue. If the aircraft was back on the ground 12 minutes after takeoff, that suggests that it was about 6 miles away from DEL when they turned
42 Wingnut767 : Did you read these posts??? Not to continue on with pride over the Himalayas
43 Jacobin777 : Do you have to be so rude? The plane doesn't even fly over the Himalayas..
44 Wingnut767 : Read his origianl post!!! Asking about flying over the Himalayas on one engine
45 Post contains images OPNLguy : After 7.5 years on Anet, I've come to conclusion that some folks never seem to read more than 2-3 messages back. They end up missing alot sometimes,
46 Post contains images Jacobin777 : That's fine..but one need not to be rude..maybe he didn't know or understand..it does happen......
47 MCOflyer : Good luck to the a/c and the people. I hope a a-netter gets some photographs of this beauty on the ground at DEL. I think they will ferry it DEL-LHR w
48 Airfinair : After 7 years and 3 days here, I'm starting to feel the same way. Hypethetically, whenever one posts he/she will spend the time to read through the p
49 Post contains images Mk777 : thanks for the link to definitions..opnlguy. the flight path usually avoids the Himalayas, last winter when i flew AA from ORD-DEL, we went over Tehra
50 SevenHeavy : Just a quick update. As stated the aircraft returned to DEL 12 minutes after take off. It did not dump fuel and made an overweight landing. Given the
51 Nimish : Whoa! That's quite a long time. Has AA outsourced the maintenance entirely to RR, or do they have some spare engines of their own? Glad that the beau
52 Airfinair : Thanks for the info, SevenHeavy. Sounds like there will may be more repairs to do than just an engine change. Is this a typical contract an air carrie
53 Ikramerica : Luckily for AA, they have a very low utilization rate for their 777s with operational spares stationed in LHR and NRT. Thus they could ferry a 777 to
54 Post contains images Mk777 : It would be nice if someone can capture a photo of the AA bird since at DEL now that it won't be there only at night time
55 Jjbiv : Sounds like a pretty typical power-by-the-hour arrangement under which an airline pays a fixed cost per flight hour (with some stipulations and condi
56 Blrsea : Any idea how full the flight was and how the passengers were routed to ORD finally?
57 Post contains images Comorin : I wouldn't do that to one of a.net's greats Yes, I have, and btw I have been reading and posting quite a while on a.net. I do, however, see how you m
58 Blrsea : Not entirely. It can come down through Afghanistan and Pakistan bypassing himalayas alltogether. The himalayas end at the pak-china-india border on N
59 AA787823 : Yes AA70/71 DFWFRADFW now being operated in a 767-323, for now through the 21st, time will tell if that gets extended,
60 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Thank you very much for the kind words....
61 Post contains links Comorin : Hi, The GC route for ORD-DEL, from Great Circle Mapper ( www.gc.kls2.com ) takes you thru Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan (Tashkent), Tajikistan, Kirgizstan,
62 Post contains links Lfutia : When I flew ORD-DEL-ORD in August, We went over Northern Ontario, over Greenland, Scandinavia, Estonia, Russia and then the 'stans, Was able to see Af
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