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AA1196 "we Will Declare An Emergency"  
User currently offlineRobK From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 3947 posts, RR: 18
Posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 23339 times:

Just been listening to an unbelievable conversation between NY OAC on 3455KHz and flight AAL1196.

The story started with AAL1196 (A300 N70074) at FL340 and requesting higher. NY came back some minutes later and replied unable due to traffic.

AAL1196: NY that's not acceptable. We're getting continuous light chop here. Get me Centre on the line.
NY: Stand by.

NY: AAL1196 go ahead.
AAL1196: NY AAL1196, we're right on the edge of the chop here and need a higher level or something. We need you to do something for us. Can you get us direct AZEZU and BERGH to NY?

NY (Centre now talking) gave him a clearance to another point via R511 and then AZEZU A300 BERGH to JFK but the flight declined as "that's no better". NY then said he could route direct ETOCA.

AAL1196: No, that's not acceptable. We're getting continuous light chop here and if you can't route us away from it then we're descending to 280.

NY Centre: I'm sorry sir but that's the best I can do at this time. Unable descent as I have opposite direction traffic at 330.

AAL1196 (raised voice): No, you need to do something for us. If you don't get us out of this chop then we WILL declare an emergency if that's what we have to do to get a lower altitude.

NY Centre: AAL1196 you're cleared direct to ETOCA at F340.

AAL1196 (shouting): Direct ECHO TANGO OSCAR CHARLIE ALPHA, out. We'll stay at 340 for a little while longer, but you need to do something for us NY.

NY Centre: New York. Out

--


Is this guy for real? That attitude will certainly NOT get him what he wants.  Wow!

Comments?

R

[Edited 2006-12-20 00:11:00]

[Edited 2006-12-20 00:18:57]

81 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 23306 times:

Quoting RobK (Thread starter):
AAL1196 (raised voice): No, you need to do something for us. If you don't get us out of this chop then we WILL declare an emergency if that's what we have to do to get a lower altitude.

To paraphrase the great KROC...this guy's pussy must hurt.

Quoting RobK (Thread starter):
Is this guy for real? That attitude will certainly NOT get him what he wants.

At the surface he sounds like a whiny pilot. Perhaps he has a reason but "continuous light chop" is pretty lame. Maybe there is something else underlying?



"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineEFHK From Finland, joined Nov 2006, 392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 23270 times:

Unbelievable.

Maybe he was getting sick from the "light chop".  Wink



One of the best places in the world: McDonald's in T2 at FRA.
User currently offlineRobK From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 3947 posts, RR: 18
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 23227 times:

I've been listening to the freq for the best part of an hour beforehand and no underlying problems have been mentioned to ATC.

I find it unbelievable that a professional airliner pilot literally threatened NY ATC if they didn't give him what he wanted. I heard one of the US Air flights earlier in the week literally plead with NY to do something as he was in continuous moderate, occasionally severe chop and NY couldn't do anything because of traffic above and below. US Air just said "okay NY, I appreciate you trying, guess we'll just have to ride it out" and got on with it.

R


User currently offlineJamesbuk From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 3968 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 23122 times:

At the end of the day the pilot is in charge of the safety and welfare of his aircraft, not air traffic control, if he feels he's in any danger then he's got to do something about it, He felt in danger so he requested a higher altitude, ATC didnt give him that so he used everything in his power to acquire that.

You guys might not have liked what this pilot done but i say Well done mate.

Rgds --James--



You cant have your cake and eat it... What the hells the point in having it then!!!
User currently offlineStylo777 From Germany, joined Feb 2006, 2974 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 23028 times:

just to be sure that I understand it 100% what exactly does "light chop" means?

User currently offlineRobK From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 3947 posts, RR: 18
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 23010 times:

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 6):
just to be sure that I understand it 100% what exactly does "light chop" means?

Light turbulence.

R


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 22946 times:

Quoting RobK (Reply 3):
I find it unbelievable that a professional airliner pilot literally threatened NY ATC if they didn't give him what he wanted.

Declaring an emergency allows one to deviate from an ATC clearance (versus getting violated for not adhering to one), so it sounds as if he was perhaps letting the controller know how far he was willing to take the situation.

That he was apparently willing to "go to the mat" because of "continuous light chop" seems a little odd, since one would think this to be less of a problem than had they been experiencing something worse like "continuous moderate occasional severe turbulence."

Who knows....?


User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11344 posts, RR: 52
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 22946 times:

Did "light chop" down AA587?


Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 22810 times:

@dlx:

Wake turbulence/pilot reaction to it/rudder limiting systems on the 300 downed it, but I'm guessing that's part of what's on the pilot's mind.



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 22771 times:

Quoting RobK (Reply 3):
I find it unbelievable that a professional airliner pilot literally threatened NY ATC if they didn't give him what he wanted. I heard one of the US Air flights earlier in the week literally plead with NY to do something as he was in continuous moderate, occasionally severe chop and NY couldn't do anything because of traffic above and below. US Air just said "okay NY, I appreciate you trying, guess we'll just have to ride it out" and got on with it.

I fly UA frequently, and listen to CH 9 all the time. What I hear from ATC when pilots request another FL, is that they try hard to accomodate them. What is described above is not what I usually hear. When ATC can't give a pilot a new altitude when requested, they usually tell the pilot they will do their best to accomodate them. Perhaps what ticked this pilot off is the lack of interest on the part of the ATC controller to help him out.


User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 22723 times:

AA1196 is an A300 from Santiago. Its running a little late tonight.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 22704 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 9):
Did "light chop" down AA587?

No... over correcting with the rudder did.



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineRedngold From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 6907 posts, RR: 44
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 22655 times:

Flytecomm shows him in safely.

I'd like to hear the CVR and look at the FDR before determining whether the pilot had reason to be such a snot.



Up, up and away!
User currently offlineArcrftLvr From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 826 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 22638 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 11):
lack of interest on the part of the ATC controller to help him out.

What is ATC supposed to do? If there is traffic, there is traffic. Its not the controllers fault. It is what it is...


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21528 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 22572 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 11):
Perhaps what ticked this pilot off is the lack of interest on the part of the ATC controller to help him out.

That may be the crux of it. This part of the account leads me to believe so...

Quoting RobK (Thread starter):
NY came back some minutes later and replied unable due to traffic.

He asks for assistance, gets put on hold for a while, and then is told no. And being from New Jersey, it's not unlikely there was a bit of attitude going on from the ATC end.

The pilot is the one who knows what's happening, and the A300 may not have been handling the turbulence well and he has a responsibility to his pax to do the best he can for them.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineCurmudgeon From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 695 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 22555 times:

"Light chop" is the term to describe a condition one notch worse than baby-bum smooth air. It is typical to not even put the seat belt signs on in light chop.

The next condition is moderate chop, then light turbulence, then moderate turbulence, severe turbulence, extreme turbulence.

This guy either is incorrectly describing the condition or has some other agenda. Light chop is hardly a threatening condition...it is just the odd whitecap in the coffee cup.



Jets are for kids
User currently offlineATCGOD From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 661 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 22481 times:

Quoting EFHK (Reply 2):
Maybe he was getting sick from the "light chop".

Regardless, if this were the case he needs to unbuckle and get to the bathroom. I'll bet ATC didn't take kindly to this threat.

Quoting RobK (Reply 3):
I find it unbelievable that a professional airliner pilot literally threatened NY ATC if they didn't give him what he wanted.

This pilot's actions are very suspect. As an ATC, I'd have done the same thing. If it's so important that he needs to get to a certain point to get out of some chop then he needs to declare an emergency. He's no more important than any other aircraft until he does that. The controller did everything just right. Accomodate if able but don't break your back or compromise safety over something like this.

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 5):
You guys might not have liked what this pilot done but i say Well done mate.

No, if I were this controller and the aircraft didn't declare an emergency I'd have filed a HATR (Hazardous Air Traffic Report). That'd keep this pilot out of the skies and from making threats.

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 5):
He felt in danger so he requested a higher altitude, ATC didnt give him that so he used everything in his power to acquire that.

The threat to descend to 280 creates a very dangerous situation. Many pilots don't understand that controllers have the whole picture in front of them. Like I said, accomodate if able and if you can't it's in the pilot's hands to request priority.

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 8):
Declaring an emergency allows one to deviate from an ATC clearance (versus getting violated for not adhering to one), so it sounds as if he was perhaps letting the controller know how far he was willing to take the situation.

As a controller, I would have waited for him to declare an emergency. Call his bluff and if he descended on his own that's a HATR, and he'll lose his ticket for it.

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 16):
What is ATC supposed to do? If there is traffic, there is traffic. Its not the controllers fault. It is what it is...

 checkmark 


User currently offlineATCGOD From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 661 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 22462 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 17):
He asks for assistance, gets put on hold for a while, and then is told no. And being from New Jersey, it's not unlikely there was a bit of attitude going on from the ATC end.

Completely irrelevant.


User currently offlineCurmudgeon From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 695 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 22464 times:

"Light chop" is the term to describe a condition one notch worse than baby-bum smooth air. It is typical to not even put the seat belt signs on in light chop.

The next condition is moderate chop, then light turbulence, then moderate turbulence, severe turbulence, extreme turbulence.

This guy either is incorrectly describing the condition or has some other agenda. Light chop is hardly a threatening condition...it is just the odd whitecap in the coffee cup.



Jets are for kids
User currently offlineRobK From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 3947 posts, RR: 18
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 22443 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 17):
He asks for assistance, gets put on hold for a while, and then is told no. And being from New Jersey, it's not unlikely there was a bit of attitude going on from the ATC end.

This is the norm though. It isn't NY Centre who you are directly dealing with, it's NY ARINC who run the HF comms and all they do is act as a go between from the flight to NY Centre and vv. which is why any requests for a change in altitude or direction take a minimum of a few minutes before you get relayed the response from Centre. The guy driving AAL1196 should know this only too well being an AAL A300 pilot as virtually all the AAL A300s fly the Caribbean milk runs which means you're talking to ARINC for the best part of your flight.

Re the attitude, well yeah I hear it a lot and there are some guys and gals on the ARINC end that seriously need to take a chill pill and buy some patience. The Russian, Spanish and Cuban pilots in particular get a real rough ride from them, especially when reading back the oceanic clearances. On the other hand though, there are a couple of females working ARINC who are extremely polite, patient and friendly who are a pleasure to listen to.  spin 

R


User currently offlineATCGOD From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 661 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 22388 times:

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 23):
If 5000 ft is in ice you are stuck, unless you threaten to declare an emergency

I've had aircraft threaten an emergency on me, so I decided to save them the trouble. ATC is authorized to declare an emergency for the pilot.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21528 posts, RR: 59
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 22277 times:

Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 18):
This guy either is incorrectly describing the condition

I thought that too.

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 20):
Completely irrelevant.

Not at all. I'm a sceenwriter, and seeing dialogue paraphrased strips all the 'tone' from it.

I'm not saying the pilot was right, but I am saying it sounds like he was pissed off about something, and since I'm from the area, I know how abrassive some people can be.

You can ask a cop for help, and some will be like: "what you want me to do about it pal? call the fire depahtment..."  Wink

Quoting RobK (Reply 22):
Re the attitude, well yeah I hear it a lot and there are some guys and gals on the ARINC end that seriously need to take a chill pill and buy some patience.

That's all I'm saying. And it might not even be intentional, just a conflict of personalities. I never take offense at treatment when I return to the area because I grew up with it and know it's not malicious. But I know plenty of people who can't deal with it...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineMD88Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1330 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 22268 times:

That's as bizarre a conversation as I have heard or read. In fact, in over 20 years of talking to ATC I have never heard anything even close. Declaring an emergency for light chop? What a moron.

User currently offlineATCGOD From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 661 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 22915 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 24):
Not at all. I'm a sceenwriter, and seeing dialogue paraphrased strips all the 'tone' from it.

I'm not saying the pilot was right, but I am saying it sounds like he was pissed off about something, and since I'm from the area, I know how abrassive some people can be.

First off, I don't care what tone the controller had, the pilot has no right to scream at ATC unless he's doing something very dangerous and obvious to the pilot. For the pilot to get pissed off like that over some light chop (or even if it were severe) is not right. You want extra service, you gotta pay for it, ie., declare an emergency..


25 MD88Captain : I would "declare the emergency"in order to deviate around weather. It relieves ATC of the normal seperation requirements and it is totally within the
26 Halls120 : Most - lately all, in my experience - UA flights feature ATC communications on channel 9 on the audio system. Every time I've heard a controller say
27 ATCGOD : It amazes me how many pilots think that they are owed an in depth response to denial of a request. Don't you guys know that we're talking to several
28 Post contains images RobK : There was a JetBlue flight waiting in turn to speak whilst this was happening. When it was his turn to speak he laughed and make some quick remark ab
29 Ikramerica : Again, you don't know how it went down and neither do I beyond the third party words typed on this screen, but as an ATC, you are defensive on the si
30 ATCGOD : I guess you have to see it from my perspective. This isn't an isolated incident...it happens all the time and I get fed up with it. The reason this i
31 Bicoastal : Why are we assuming the pilot is male? Just wondering. Not that it makes a difference. It's nice that the pilot is concerned about his/her passengers'
32 RobK : For the record, the pilot speaking was male and so were both the ARINC operator and NY Centre. R[Edited 2006-12-20 02:39:19]
33 Airfinair : RobK - Were you able to record this conversation? I'd love to hear it. I do occasionally visit LiveATC.net and download audio clips - JFK tower is alw
34 RobK : Sadly no. It wasn't heard on liveatc.net I'm afraid. R
35 Halls120 : A response doesn't have to be "in depth." How hard is it to say "I will get you your requested altitude as soon as I can" or "I've got ___ aircraft t
36 ATCGOD : The fact that he said he was "unable due to traffic" should have sufficed. Controllers look to shorten their phraseology as much as possible because
37 Curmudgeon : Just as another thought...If you anticipate entering an area handled by AIRINC on HF, and you expect to cross an area of forecast turbulence, it is of
38 Halls120 : Well, I flew two R/T's from IAD to the west coast last month, listening to ATC on all four flights. And when a pilot requested an altitude or route c
39 777fan : Hardly! Seriously, what a beotch! Maybe he had to use the loo and either couldn't stand the bouncing and considering declaring an emergency just to g
40 ATCGOD : I'm not saying it couldn't or shouldn't be done, I'm just saying maybe the controller was busy (as it sounds like he was) and didn't have time to exp
41 Curmudgeon : You'd get a kick out of things down here, ATCGOD. The controllers here never give an explanation for anything. If the words aren't in the official phr
42 Post contains images RobK : But if you're in - or have just come through - a really rough patch then you don't report "light chop" do you! The pilot was clear on that and it was
43 ATCGOD : I'd be in heaven! Just kidding. I've known a few Aussie military ATC'ers and they're good blokes...good controllers too.
44 UAL777UK : I fly UA regularly and listen to Ch 9 when its on and in all my years I have never experienced a conversation between a pilot and ATC described about.
45 ChrisNH : Isn't this a little like calling 9-1-1 to get your cat out of a tree? Chris in NH
46 Jerald01 : There are always two sides to every story, and there are always reasons people do and say what they do and say. None of us were sitting in the pilot's
47 JBirdAV8r : To expound on that, "chop" is generally considered to be intermittent. "Turbulence" is usually defined as continuous. Either way, lots of pilots tend
48 Lincoln : I could be completely off here but as a layman reading between the lines I kind of get the sense that the pilot was trying to get into a DSW with the
49 Coa747 : I read an article in Airways Magazine a couple months ago called Circle of Jerks, about a pilot who became an air traffic controller. He thought his c
50 Post contains images OPNLguy : The controller could have also declined the request for an altitude change due to noise abatement considerations, something along the lines of this ol
51 Post contains images ATCGOD : Very, very, very funny. I'd never heard that before. Ahhh, finally, someone gets it!
52 Ordpark : If you declare an Emergency, you sure as hell better be able to justify it when you get on the ground...there will be follow up on the part of the com
53 777fan : Believe me, I wasn't justifying his behavior - I was only trying to come up with an explanation for it. Based on my UA Channel 9 experiences, it's no
54 Frontiercpt : To quote a line of mine from a show last month... "That's what I mean! That...that attitude from that altitude! I just can't take it!" Sean
55 Cedarjet : You'll see another absolute all-time balls-to-the-wall classic in my signature.
56 Jetdeltamsy : I don't see the big deal here. People in the course of their work get irritated with other and express that all the time. This is no different. Gener
57 IAHFLYR : Ahhh some just don't understand that, some think it is Burger King and you can get it your way! I've not had the pleasure of dealing with such clown
58 777fan : Here's another one I overheard on UA's channel nine while on approach to JFK (UA 16) in horrible weather (clouds down to 800 feet, winds 330 at 30kts
59 Detroitflyer : why would he??? If he declares an emergency, doesnt he have a right to deviate from ATC's commands (As long as he files a report within 24 hrs.. i th
60 Sevenair : Surely it's illegal for a pilot to falsely call an Emergency when it is not. I'm sure it says that in my ATP book somewhere? Could someone clear this
61 Tom in NO : I'll join the fun.....back in the day when AA served MSY with DC-10's I was taking a work break and visiting some ATC friends in the tower, when the f
62 EXMEMWIDGET : The pilot of this flight will be getting a call from the FAA over this. He also will be getting a chat with his chief pilot. My dad retired from the F
63 Post contains images IAHFLYR : GREAT.....think they are working at IAH now!!!! No, not me.
64 ATCGOD : My example was based on this aircraft not declaring an emergency. If he deviated from an ATC clearance without declaring an emergency, yes, he would
65 ATCGOD : Ah, yes, the FAA liasons. Good people. I've seen pilots lose their license because they were 400 feet off their assigned altitude...it happens quite
66 Ajaaron : Nah - there was no turbulence! He kept asking for direct routings all the time. This guy was late for his wife's funeral, and after years of hell want
67 Ajaaron : He would have know about other traffic above and below cos TCAS would clearly show it up - he was calling their bluff for a direct routing...that all
68 Detroitflyer : would a NASA form save him???? that seems kinda harsh, dont you think???
69 OPNLguy : Just to make a general clarification, one "losing their license" (a certificate revocation) is not necessarily a permanent thing. Sure, there are cas
70 Dimondan : Sometimes, pilots have to force pressure to get what they need. Yes, need
71 Remcor : If the guy went through all the trouble to have a hissy fit, why didn't he embellish his situation a little? Why didn't he at least call it "moderate
72 ATCGOD : It's a common misconception that the NASA form "saves" someone. It's basically admitting that you did something in good faith and pleading to the jur
73 Post contains images RobK : I was going to ignore this email I received regarding this thread but as the guy clearly has no knowledge whatsoever of HF comms, ATC or anything else
74 777fan : Funny exchange - it'll bring some well deserved life back to this thread. I, for one, have heard plenty of nav points broken out phonetically, partic
75 Post contains images RobK : Classic! R
76 Vref5 : Well, the regs gives him/her the right to declare an emergency if truly warranted. Not to threaten to do such. In other words, one either goes right
77 AviatorTJ : No, NASA forms are for deviations/mistakes that are not willful. If he deliberately broke a reg, the NASA form is worthless.
78 Vref5 : The regs allows him/her to declare an emergency... not to threaten to do so. Keep in mind that once in a long while, the FAA will disagree with pilot
79 MEACEDAR : Real bad.... Anyways, the pilot has a bug up his ass or something. Happy Holidays!
80 IAHFLYR : Bingo! As a controller you hear anything remotely resembling the situations above YOU JUST DO IT! That is your priority from then on....not some whin
81 BostonGuy : You know... I grew up in The South and this was a very common phrase. But in Boston I find people have never heard the phrase and don't quite know wh
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