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AC Vs BA @ YYC  
User currently offlineDFORCE1 From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 505 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3418 times:

Interesting article below from the Globe and Mail. I wonder how well AC will be able to compete with BA especially since the 777's in YYC are likely a few years away. Perhaps AC should look at putting the 777's on the YYC-LHR rather than the YVR-LHR.

Also, an interesting note about WestJet - I wonder what the future has in store. The BA CEO is making it no secret that he wants WJ in the OneWorld Alliance.

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CALGARY — British Airways, after a 25-year absence, began direct flights between Calgary and London's Heathrow Airport this month, using its long-haul Boeing 777 aircraft.

That's going to put Air Canada, which has been the only regularly scheduled option for anyone wanting to fly from Edmonton or Calgary to London since buying Canadian Airlines in 2000, in the position of having to adjust to some sophisticated competition.

Yesterday, BA's Irish-born CEO Willie Walsh touched down in Calgary for a series of meetings where he highlighted the reasons for BA's return.

"Calgary is a perfect market for us," he said. "It has a strong business market, because the oil and gas industry is doing well, and a strong leisure market. And it's the gateway to the Rockies for travellers from the U.K. and elsewhere."

This is great news for Calgary travellers because BA has an excellent global network, something that is increasingly important to the local business community because of Alberta's growing significance as a global energy player.

Companies such as Talisman Energy, Canadian Natural Resources, Nexen, Petro-Canada, Niko Resources, First Calgary Petroleum, Vermilion Energy Trust all have people flying to and from Europe and beyond.

Then there are the European players that are also interested in Calgary, such as Total Energy, or Italy's Eni and Norway's Statoil, which are waiting to make their marks in the oil sands.

Beyond those who travel for business, Mr. Walsh said Calgary has an attractive premium leisure market in terms of those willing to pay up for a business ticket, even though they are travelling for fun.

No matter how you look at it, the presence of another regularly scheduled carrier on the international scene is good for fares and customer service. Look no further than WestJet for evidence of what one player can do to a market.

Air Canada wasted no time in matching BA's business-class ticket to London of $4,831.32 last week, but anyone who flew out on Air Canada prior to BA's arrival Dec. 1 was paying more than $9,000 for that same business-class seat.

It will take more than lower prices, however, to get people staying with Air Canada.

Brigette Keating, who runs a travel agency in Calgary and caters to the energy sector, sends people all over the world and tries to put them on BA whenever possible.

"It's an exceptional airline," she says. "Their business class offers the sleeper beds, which means my clients are rested when they get to their destination. And the service in economy and economy plus is also very good. It's a totally different airline compared with Air Canada."

Indeed, one of the members of the team accompanying Mr. Walsh said quietly that another of the reasons BA returned to Calgary was because of the antipathy toward Air Canada and the opportunity they saw to take advantage of it.

Call it novelty or call it a better product, but Mr. Walsh said yesterday that its five London flights a week were close to being sold out through December and that a sixth was being added in the new year.

Even as Air Canada is embarking on a program to replace aging planes and refit others, it is still in the position of having to play catch-up. Moreover, its new aircraft will go into service in the bigger markets long before they get to Calgary.

But there is another interesting element to BA's presence in Calgary and that's WestJet. Today, Mr. Walsh and his team are paying what he calls a courtesy visit to WestJet.

BA has tracked what its European passengers do when they want to travel beyond where they land in Canada and found they tend to choose WestJet over Air Canada.

Asked whether a formal alliance with the no-frills carrier was possible, Mr. Walsh said that if there was an opportunity BA, would consider it.

"Anything that provides connectivity for our passengers is a plus," he said.

For WestJet, an alliance with the international carrier would be an excellent way to broaden its reach. Not only is this something WestJet must do because it has virtually saturated the Canadian market and has not had much luck in transferring its brand into the U.S., company founder Clive Beddoe has made no secret of his desire to one day to see WestJet connect to Europe, either directly or indirectly.

And this means Calgary's airline service to international destinations is only going to get better and that's positive for business and leisure traveller alike. That's good news for passengers, but bad news for Air Canada because its monopoly on international travel from Calgary is gone.

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offline747433 From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 57 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3368 times:

It makes me sick when local media and other groups go out of there way to support a carrier (BA) like this. AC has provided continuous service between YYC and LHR for well over 40 years. YYC is a boom/bust market due to its heavy reliance on the oil and gas industries. BA came in during the last boom and was just as quick to leave when the market cooled. Wonder if they'll stick around during the next downturn.

User currently offlineAirbusfanYYZ From Canada, joined Oct 2002, 1434 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3364 times:

Quoting DFORCE1 (Thread starter):
Perhaps AC should look at putting the 777's on the YYC-LHR rather than the YVR-LHR.

Nah... IMO AC with the new refurbished 763s will be more than able to compete with BA. Keep the 777s on the premium routes out of YYZ and YVR.

Cheers,
Kaz



t.dot photography
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4976 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3348 times:

There is enough traffic for both BA and AC to co-exist while maintaining healthy performance. 777/330/763 will be re-furbished, so AC has a variety of options to satisfy demand on Calgary-Europe.

User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2130 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3315 times:

Quoting DFORCE1 (Thread starter):
Brigette Keating, who runs a travel agency in Calgary and caters to the energy sector, sends people all over the world and tries to put them on BA whenever possible.

"It's an exceptional airline," she says. "Their business class offers the sleeper beds, which means my clients are rested when they get to their destination. And the service in economy and economy plus is also very good. It's a totally different airline compared with Air Canada."

It appears Ms. Keating knows little about AC's fleet refurbishment plans (which speaks to her effectiveness as a travel agent) or has a personal axe to grind with AC, or both.



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineSNATH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3238 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3300 times:

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 4):
It appears Ms. Keating knows little about AC's fleet refurbishment plans (which speaks to her effectiveness as a travel agent) or has a personal axe to grind with AC, or both.

Playing Devil's advocate, AC's planes are not going to get the new sleeper beds overnight... so it will be a while before AC can guarantee a sleeper bed, whereas BA can guarantee it today.

Tony

PS in case you misread my post: I'm an AC fan and Aeroplan elite since 2001. But I also try to be objective too.



Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
User currently offlineYYCowboy From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 147 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3214 times:

If Milton hadn't spent so much time, money and effort trying to bankrupt the domestic competition, he might have focused on Air Canada's product.

Look at the new price YYC-LHR, competition is good. It would lead any sensible person to believe Albertans were getting screwed. 40 years flying the route or not, bring on the competition.

For all you AC YYZites, who live in that cesspool of humanity called the golden horshoe, take a deep breath of that oxygen deprived sluge that passes for air and realise Western Canada is here to stay. And you're welcome to participate.

Typically, and historically, any commerce decisions made in Central Canada totally miss the mark for the rest of the country. I'm not suprised to find it took a foreigner to sniff out this opportunity.

Boom & Bust, well, lets just say "remember Bob Rae"?
Alberta's famous bust was a direct result of a nasty and ill concieved policy from Ottawa called the NEP. Overnight, it needlessly wiped $billions of equity off the books of Alberta corporations, the rest is history. It was not a natural fluctuation of comodity prices.

Many quality, well educated people, have and are re-locating to Alberta. The economy is diversyifing in many ways with this new batch of entrepeneurs. Any carrier offering a decient product at a fair price will do well, this includes Air Canada. So, to suggest Air Canada NOT deploy its new aircraft from Alberta is just crazy, its a market that can't be ignored much longer.



Its hard to soar like an eagle when you're flying with turkeys
User currently offlineBO__einG From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2771 posts, RR: 18
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3119 times:

I think both carriers will do quite well here.
Calgary can even support an asian carrier if it started as soon as today.
Although we may be seeing such official word as early as next year.
This city is a hotbed for business and now surpasses Toronto in terms of office/business output, vacancy rates, and annual growth as well as construction of new offices.

That NEP was poison to this province. Calgary especially stalling growth and cancelling billions of dollars worth of business back in the 80s.
This city at the time had about 600,000 citizens and were already getting massive 900' tall skyscrapers being proposed like the ones you see today in places like the Centre of the Universe, LA, Chicago etc.
Had those gone through, some half a dozen of these along with the current growth our business core would be larger than that of Toronto by a small margin.
~65 million vs ~63 million.
The city at this time has ~35 million with another 2 million opening up next year and another 11 opening up by the time 2011 hits.

BA is going to help support this by bringing in more money, offices, new companies and investment. It will sweeten even more with WJ providing the supplimentary networking across the country by feeding some of those Intl pax. I can only imagine what it would be like in a few years when we have a few full service carriers serving up the city.



Chance favors the prepared mind.
User currently offline747433 From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 57 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3070 times:

Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 6):
its a market that can't be ignored much longer.

How can you say the YYC market is ignored by AC? BA's current fares are only for introductory purposes. BA and AC match each other and can usually command a healthy yield from Canada to LHR. Take a historical look at AC/BA fares from YVR/YYZ and YUL to LHR. I guess you preferred the CP approach of outsourcing all Commercial and IT (brains of the company) to AA in DFW. AC has invested heavily in YYC and has more flights and serves more destinations than any other carrier.
YVR YYJ YXX YLW YKA YCG YQQ YXC YZF YMM YQU YXH YQL YEG YXE YQR
YWG YYZ YOW YUL YHZ SFO LAX IAH LAS PHX PSP JFK MCO FLL LHR FRA
CUN PVR MBJ PUJ VRA ZIH
plus a Maple Leaf Lounge


User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2130 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3039 times:

Quoting SNATH (Reply 5):
But I also try to be objective too.

SNATH, I had no inkling that your post wasn't objective. You make a good point. The comments from that sole travel agent, however, are anything but. Same can be said for the following:

Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 6):
If Milton hadn't spent so much time, money and effort trying to bankrupt the domestic competition, he might have focused on Air Canada's product.



Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 6):
For all you AC YYZites, who live in that cesspool of humanity called the golden horshoe, take a deep breath of that oxygen deprived sluge that passes for air and realise Western Canada is here to stay. And you're welcome to participate.

Bold statement. Could you have made it ten years ago? Ever descended into Calgary airspace after crossing the prairies or Rockies? If you had, you'd realise that your air is rapidly becoming sludge-like too. As a westerner, I appreciate your enthusiasm for finally becoming relevant on a national stage, but out here, we have a tendency not to gloat. I'd advise you to remember that's what has often distinguished us from your dreaded central Canada.

Quoting BO__einG (Reply 7):
Had those gone through, some half a dozen of these along with the current growth our business core would be larger than that of Toronto by a small margin.
~65 million vs ~63 million.

I assume you're referring to the square footage devoted to office space which means, quite frankly, f*** all.

Quoting BO__einG (Reply 7):
This city is a hotbed for business and now surpasses Toronto in terms of office/business output, vacancy rates, and annual growth as well as construction of new offices.

Calgary, I'm sorry, will not surpass Toronto in terms of anything related to business for many decades to come, no matter what the price of crude will do. Calgary is basically a one-industry town, reliant on a volatile commodity. Yes, it can support AC & BA's premium cabins, but let's not disillusion ourselves with premature grandeur yet.

Bottom line, folks, despite Alberta's rapid growth, it is a cyclical economy and is still, in the world's eyes, a fringe market. If AC or any international carrier could make a killing serving Calgary more than they currently do - guess what - they'd be doing it.



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineSNATH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3238 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2905 times:

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 9):
SNATH, I had no inkling that your post wasn't objective. You make a good point. The comments from that sole travel agent, however, are anything but.

I totally agree with this. She could have at least mentioned that AC is coming up with a new product that will be very competitive against BA instead of just bashing them.

Tony



Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
User currently offlineAirbusfanYYZ From Canada, joined Oct 2002, 1434 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2884 times:

Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 6):
For all you AC YYZites, who live in that cesspool of humanity called the golden horshoe, take a deep breath of that oxygen deprived sluge that passes for air and realise Western Canada is here to stay.

Sounds like someone's got an inferiority complex. Grow up and get over it!
If YYC were indeed the promised land, you'd have had more carriers serving it than what currently do.

Cheers,
Kaz



t.dot photography
User currently offlineC172Akula From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 1000 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2873 times:

Quoting AirbusfanYYZ (Reply 11):
Sounds like someone's got an inferiority complex. Grow up and get over it!
If YYC were indeed the promised land, you'd have had more carriers serving it than what currently do.

Oh they're lining up all right, we are just being picky about letting them in. Just like all the bouncers at Cowboys!  Wink

Seriously though I'm looking forward to trying the BA service this March on my way with them over to India. They offered the most hassle free way to get there from YYC. I've flown the YYC-FRA route many times in both economy and business, so I look forward to comparing the economy(couldn't even come close to affording the business class, let alone first on BA to DEL!).


User currently offlineCPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4781 posts, RR: 23
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2817 times:

Quoting DFORCE1 (Thread starter):
Perhaps AC should look at putting the 777's on the YYC-LHR rather than the YVR-LHR.

Just because BA has 777s on the route doesn't mean it is immediatley a superior product. I avoid them specifically because of their skimpy 31" seat pitch in Y.

Quoting BO__einG (Reply 7):
This city is a hotbed for business and now surpasses Toronto in terms of office/business output, vacancy rates, and annual growth as well as construction of new offices.

Um, I think thats just slightly inaccurate. Calgary is definetley in a boom at the moment and has been for the past few years, but it can all change with the price of oil. It has before and it will happen again. And I mean that with no disrespect because I like the city, but seeing Calgary surpass Toronto in terms of economic output would require about $200 oil...


User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2130 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2730 times:

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 13):
but seeing Calgary surpass Toronto in terms of economic output would require about $200 oil...

...and the relocation of major charter banks and the TSE and pretty much all of Bay St and several hundred manufacturing industries and magically become as close geographically to a couple hundred million consumers and and and...

My fearless and completely uninformed opinion is that we may see another European carrier and perhaps an Asian one as well serve Calgary in the next few years. That number may or may not include a seasonal charter. Unfortunately YYC is book-ended by YVR and YYZ and as such, will lose out in terms of service from airlines wishing to establish a gateway presence in Canada.



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineUSAirPlatinum From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2726 times:

Flying economy, given the choice I would take AC over BA. For business class, BA probably has a better product.

But don't forget that BA's frequent flyer program and alliance are both extremely poor. If you don't pay full fare on BA flights, they only give you 25% of your mileage, and even after you accumulate enough miles for a flight, availability is so limited as to make BA's program useless.

Star Alliance ensures that you can always get a low-mileage fare on one of the Star carriers to Europe or Asia, no matter where you're going.



"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
User currently onlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7473 posts, RR: 17
Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2698 times:

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 4):
"It's an exceptional airline," she says. "Their business class offers the sleeper beds, which means my clients are rested when they get to their destination. And the service in economy and economy plus is also very good. It's a totally different airline compared with Air Canada."

It appears Ms. Keating knows little about AC's fleet refurbishment plans (which speaks to her effectiveness as a travel agent) or has a personal axe to grind with AC, or both.

If Ms Keating sold a product to her clients on the basis of what it was going to be like tomorrow when they want it today she would soon have no clients. Clearly she is a very effective travel agent promising what she can deliver and not what she cannot deliver.

But it is good to see that

Quoting DFORCE1 (Thread starter):
Air Canada wasted no time in matching BA's business-class ticket to London of $4,831.32 last week

as this will benefit those flying either AC or BA.

Quoting DFORCE1 (Thread starter):
But anyone who flew out on Air Canada prior to BA's arrival Dec. 1 was paying more than $9,000 for that same business-class seat.

and is probably feeling pretty sore with AC at having spent nearly $4,200 over the odds on an inferior product.


User currently offlineUSAirPlatinum From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2696 times:

Quote:
probably feeling pretty sore with AC at having spent nearly $4,200 over the odds on an inferior product

Except that AC was, at the time, the only game in town.

Not to mention, it's a bit rich for BA fans to complain about overpriced monopoly routes.  Wink



"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
User currently offlineMultimark From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 796 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2602 times:

Quoting YYCowboy (Reply 6):
...For all you AC YYZites, who live in that cesspool of humanity called the golden horshoe, take a deep breath of that oxygen deprived sluge that passes for air and realise Western Canada is here to stay. And you're welcome to participate...

You must have forgotten the smilie after dopping this little nugget into the board Yeah sure

Ms. Keating seems to be a bigger fan of BA Y than most people I know who have experienced the product.


User currently offlineVonRichtofen From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 4627 posts, RR: 36
Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2581 times:

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 15):
Flying economy, given the choice I would take AC over BA.



Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 15):
But don't forget that BA's frequent flyer program and alliance are both extremely poor.



Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 15):
Star Alliance ensures that you can always get a low-mileage fare on one of the Star carriers to Europe or Asia, no matter where you're going.

These are excellent points that seem to be lost on some. Sure BA has a better Biz class product for now. But there's more to it than just seats alone. How many Oneworld FFP members are in Canada? Not many. Plus when it comes to mileage accural/redemtion Oneworld is a joke compared to STAR.

AC economy is superior to that of BA with the exception of IFE (which is also changing soon). AC offers more seat pitch plus the almighty Aeroplan miles.

Kris



Word
User currently offlineA332 From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 1644 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2550 times:

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 17):
Except that AC was, at the time, the only game in town.

So that means it was right for AC to absolutely gouge it's passengers on this route...?  sarcastic 



Bad spellers of the world... UNTIE!
User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2130 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2506 times:

Quoting A332 (Reply 20):
So that means it was right for AC to absolutely gouge it's passengers on this route...?

I'd be interested to see any evidence of price gouging...can you provide a link please? When asked what a particular product or service is worth, the correct answer is: whatever the customer is willing to pay. Evidently there were more than a few willing & repeat AC customers prior to the BA arrival. If they felt the price was exorbitant or unreasonable, no doubt they would have explored alternatives to the YYC-LHR non-stop.



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineYYCowboy From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 147 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2441 times:

All in all, its about time Air Canada stepped up to the plate globally. I'm very excited about its future. Beautiful new aircraft and healthy balance sheet. Our American neibours should be so lucky. As we've seen domestically, they can be very competative. This thread began with a news article regarding BA's entry to YYC, and how it compares to AC. Well folks, its early, let the market decide, but take the blinders off, and think outside the box. Most folks out here don't go YIPPPEEE, I'm transiting in YYZ. Alberta is clearly an emerging market, and the turf is wide open. I do consider YYC an Air Canada hub as pointed out by 747433 in post 9. They serve the city well, why the hell have they overlooked this as a feeder for international flights. Those bozo's seem to be asleep at the wheel when it comes to being proactive. Its also a West Jet hub, look out for any alliances they form. Air Canada will go Ohhhh Ohhhh Ohhhh, why didn't we think of that, then go running to Ottawa for help. Any West Jet alliance will also bennifit ports YYZ, YVR, YUL, perhaps YEG in the future.

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 21):
If they felt the price was exorbitant or unreasonable, no doubt they would have explored alternatives to the YYC-LHR non-stop.

Many have, hence the entry of BA to YYC to capture this disgrundled market. BO_einG may be quick to cite useless statistics, and in too many words, he indicates the demographics are clearly there for a 4th Canadian gateway and YYC is rabbid about obtaining it, YEGmontonians are equally as competative in building and advancing their port. Its all good.

Quoting Multimark (Reply 18):
You must have forgotten the smilie after dopping this little nugget into the board

Nope. After 30 years living in Toronto and environs (from Alberta with my parents), I know what I'm talking about.

Quoting AirbusfanYYZ (Reply 11):
Sounds like someone's got an inferiority complex. Grow up and get over it!

Wow, I've been flamed. Hit a nerve, did I? Maybe go take a relaxing swim in Hamilton harbour and then take a deeeeeeep breath and relax.
 Smile



Its hard to soar like an eagle when you're flying with turkeys
User currently offlineLH423 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 6501 posts, RR: 54
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2423 times:

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 19):
Sure BA has a better Biz class product for now



Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 19):
AC economy is superior to that of BA with the exception of IFE (which is also changing soon

Don't forget, BA is also introducing a next-generation business class and AVOD in all long-haul aircraft. I can't see AC having too much of an advantage in either category.

LH423



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