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Delta Creditors Agree With Delta  
User currently offlineMD88Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1330 posts, RR: 20
Posted (7 years 9 months 23 hours ago) and read 10672 times:

The DAL Creditor committee has come out in support of DAL's Reorganization Plan, but is keeping an eye out for other offers. Sorry Parker.

NEW YORK, Dec 20 (Reuters) - Bankrupt Delta Air Lines Inc.'s official creditor committee said on Wednesday it supported the carrier's decision to file a reorganization plan, but it would continue to consider potential alternatives.

Delta (DALRQ.PK: Quote, Profile , Research), which has been operating under Chapter 11 protection since September 2005, rejected a takeover offer from rival US Airways Group Inc. (LCC.N: Quote, Profile , Research) on Tuesday and filed a business plan that would see it exit bankruptcy as an independent carrier.

A number of issues, including those left open in the plan, will be the focus of continuing discussions between creditors and Delta over the coming weeks, the official committee of unsecured creditors said in a brief statement.

But the committee added that it would continue to look at alternatives at the same time to maximize recoveries for unsecured creditors.

195 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFoxecho From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 747 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 22 hours ago) and read 10652 times:

Thanks for posting this, I missed this today

Andrew
JFK/MEM/MCI



..uh, we'll need that to live......
User currently offlineSupa7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 22 hours ago) and read 10624 times:

Well, that explains the inexplicable press release from the DL B.O.D. saying they had "decided" not to go with US, as if they had the power to decide, which they don't.

User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4056 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 21 hours ago) and read 10452 times:

Quoting MD88Captain (Thread starter):
But the committee added that it would continue to look at alternatives at the same time to maximize recoveries for unsecured creditors.

Obviously they feel there are better merger alternatives for DL, and Grinstein himself hasn't ruled that possibility out. They agree with him whole heatedly that Parker and the US offer is pure Snake-Oil!
All the Delta haters on a.net are going to have the ultimate mother of all  hissyfit !



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 16
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 20 hours ago) and read 10387 times:

Funny how US Airways put out a press release stating that the Delta Creditors agree with US Airways!


Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4674 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 20 hours ago) and read 10351 times:

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 4):
Funny how US Airways put out a press release stating that the Delta Creditors agree with US Airways!

The release i red this afternoon was not put out by Delta, but rather from the creditor committee themselves. Given the lack of concrete information, and fuzzy answers to questions; ive had a hard time believeing anything US has been saying.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineZsx81 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 301 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 20 hours ago) and read 10338 times:

GREAT NEWS!! Thank Captain.. here is the link incase anyone else thinks its too good to be true

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/21/business/21delta.html


User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 16
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 15 hours ago) and read 10304 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 5):
Given the lack of concrete information, and fuzzy answers to questions; ive had a hard time believeing anything US has been saying.

As a Dividend Miles Silver Preferred member, and usually about as close to a US Airways cheerleader as you get on this site, I have to admit that I'm about at the end of my rope with them, and it has nothing to do with their flights (I haven't been on a flight, on US Airways or any other carrier, since August 1st), but the attitude they've been displaying lately, particularly regarding their proposed takeover bid for Delta Air Lines (and, let's face it, even if Gerald Grinstein couldn't wait for it to show up at his doorstep, the Department of Justice would never allow this to happen short of a VERY large amount of divestitures, divestitures significant enough that would cause Parker to simply throw his hands up in disgust and call it off. I even stated in a job interview I had with US Airways, about a week after the takeover bid was announced, that I didn't think that the Department of Justice would agree to it (and is it any wonder why no airline will hire me?). The good news, of course, is that we won't have to waste our government's time and our money to find out.



Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineMD88Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1330 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 10178 times:

The DAL has been telling/hinting the troops that the Creditors did not like the LCC offer. So this was expected by some and hoped for by all DAL types.

User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4910 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 10165 times:
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Quoting MD88Captain (Thread starter):
The DAL Creditor committee has come out in support of DAL's Reorganization Plan, but is keeping an eye out for other offers. Sorry Parker.

Actually, they didn't say that they support or endorse the plan itself. It actually says that they "support the carrier's decision to file the reorganization plan". That comes across like another non-commital statement. In fact, if I were to take the "glass if half empty" view, this means that the US plan is still in the running (hence the 'gleeful' US statement that the creditors are still considering the US plan and have not tossed it out yet).

Of course the key advantage of the US plan is the $4 billion cash 'carrot' and DL has not mentioned the split between cash and equity in the reorganization plan. Hence the statement:

"A number of issues, including those left open in the plan, will be the focus of continuing discussions between creditors and Delta over the coming weeks, the official committee of unsecured creditors said in a brief statement."

It looks like DL deliberately went in there with the "low-ball" estimate of zero cash to gauge the initial reaction of the creditors. That's why there is now a period in the coming weeks where those "open items" (such as cash distribution, exit financing, equity stake amounts, etc.) will be discussed between DL and the Creditors Committee.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 10 hours ago) and read 10062 times:

The creditors basically made a statement that says nothing. They haven't ruled anything in and they haven't ruled anything out.

They are fully aware that it would next to impossible for a DL/US merger to get through the DOJ/DOT/EU without ripping out the heart of what makes each airline profitable (their large east coast assets). DL also knows that and doesn't want to offer any more cash than they have to, knowing full well that you can give the creditors any amount of cash they want but that comes at the expense of more debt for DL - debt that will have to be serviced when the industry takes an almost certain downturn.

I would suggest anyone that is at all interested review the POR, antitrust, and US merger presentations on delta.com here:

http://www.delta.com/about_delta/cor...n/speeches_presentations/index.jsp

You will see that DL will have the lowest debt levels for an airline of its size by far (half of what AA has and 50% less than UA or CO - not adjusted for size) and will have the best EBITDAR coverage - the ability to service debt (by a 2 to 1 margin). Coupled with the lowest costs on a mileage adjusted basis, and DL will be one fierce competitior. It is no wonder US and everyone else wants DL gone - or if they are going to be alive and independent, to be loaded up with debt.

Several people have commented about the excess valuation they believe DL made of itself. That valuation looks very realistic when you look at the very low debt values.

DL's creditors have the choice of accepting DL's lower cash offer which will create an incredibly powerful airline or saddling DL with debt that will make it less healthy and more susceptible to downturns.

While creditors certainly want as much as they want, they will have to think very hard about pushing any proposal that weakens their long-term ability to recover. Since no recovery will offer them 100% cash, they have to accept that some portion of the recovery is dependent on the future value of the company.

One other note on why the creditors will be attracted to DL's plan. DL's tax assets are valued at $1.6-$1.7B which means that DL can essentially earn that much money before they have to start paying taxes. Those will be lost if DL is sold to US. It is highly likely that US would exhaust its own tax assets. DL's tax assets are a unique advantage to its own plan and are lost under any merger proposal.

It is incredibly difficult to envision a merger scenario between any two airlines that is financially better than what each carrier can do on a standalone basis given the costs of mergers, the loss of tax assets, and the value that the bankruptcy process provides to each airline in reducing debt and allowing increased flexibility to right size the airline during downtimes.


User currently offline77411 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 152 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 9867 times:

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 2):
Well, that explains the inexplicable press release from the DL B.O.D. saying they had "decided" not to go with US, as if they had the power to decide, which they don't.

They may not have the ultimate say on this merger thing but they did there job and reviewed the proposal to see if it was beneficial. So that was the purpose for that press release. Thats all it was so relax.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 9844 times:

And remember there has still NEVER been a successful hostile takeover in the airline industry.

Delta's creditors know that Doug Parker has no chance of succeeding and are trying to get as much as they can from DL management w/o endangering the future stability of the company. When DL management tells them they cannot assure DL will be profitable when the creditors demand that DL throw in a couple billion dollars more debt, the creditors will back off, take their stock and be happy.

Let's also not forget that DL tried not once but twice to restructure its debt BEFORE filing for bankruptcy. Not one airline has ever tried to restructure its debt outside of bankruptcy to the degree DL tried. The creditors said no and now have to live with the bankruptcy process which is heavily weighted in favor of the company since management does have the right to exclusively present a restructuring plan. The creditors can fight but they will only delay DL's exit and diminish the creditors' ability to recover.


User currently offlineUSAirPlatinum From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 9833 times:

 rotfl 

Have you read what the actual release says?!?

Quote:
Bankrupt Delta Air Lines Inc.'s official creditor committee said on Wednesday it supported the carrier's decision to file a reorganization plan, but it would continue to consider potential alternatives.

They support Delta's decision to FILE a PLAN. They didn't say they support the plan itself.

Basically, what they're saying is "we're glad management came up with a recommendation other than Chapter 7. We continue to seek the best offer for our debt, however, which may include offers from US or others."



"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
User currently offlineUSAirPlatinum From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 9820 times:

Quote:
When DL management tells them they cannot assure DL will be profitable when the creditors demand that DL throw in a couple billion dollars more debt, the creditors will back off, take their stock and be happy.

Who is going to lend Delta's management team more money to get out of bankruptcy? Delta's credit rating is toast and will be toast after their "emergence" -- especially if they keep losing money (the most likely outcome).

US is able to offer cash because their management is credible at managing mergers and turning a profit. Delta's BOD wouldn't be able to get a loan from their own mothers, let alone any creditor who does due diligence.



"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
User currently offlineAloha73G From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2362 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 9788 times:

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 14):
US is able to offer cash because their management is credible at managing mergers and turning a profit.

I think its a little premature to give anyone credit for "managing" a merger that hasn't really happened yet.

-Aloha!



Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
User currently offlineSilver764 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 9771 times:

Who is going to lend Delta's management team more money to get out of bankruptcy? Delta's credit rating is toast and will be toast after their "emergence" -- especially if they keep losing money (the most likely outcome).

US is able to offer cash because their management is credible at managing mergers and turning a profit. Delta's BOD wouldn't be able to get a loan from their own mothers, let alone any creditor who does due diligence.

Make no mistake...there will be plenty of people lined up to give exit financing. I expect familiar names will be Boeing, GE and possibly AMEX will be in the mix.

[Edited 2006-12-21 19:51:31]

User currently offlineSupa7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 9757 times:

Oddly enough, US's recent financial success only bolsters the idea that Delta can become very profitable once it exits from BK. Costs were slashed massively, and DL will be growing its revenue (777LR, 757ETOPS, 737s).

W.Traveler's comments about "loss of tax assets" are interesting. Anyone with further info?

The DOJ has not publicly commented on US-DL, UA-CO (just as troublesome IMO) or NW-CO or US-NW. To presume the government hates mergers may well prevent ANY mergers from happening. The government needs to offer some unofficial comments, because the market is functioning as if "no" is a likely answer -- which I don't believe.

DL's plan may well promise profits, and it may deliver. But structurally, I am not sure why Doug Parker could not do the same plan -- schedule and market the same flights, and handle the accounting -- from Phoenix, reap the same rewards, but lop off the Delta management overhead, which is 5 to 10% of operating costs... very big money.


User currently offlineWilliam From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1279 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 9725 times:

Hey USairplatinum, who lent AmWest and USair money for their exitS from BK? There are plenty of sources for capital,banks make money lending.

User currently offlineDL787932ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 597 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 5 hours ago) and read 9690 times:

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 18):
DL's plan may well promise profits, and it may deliver. But structurally, I am not sure why Doug Parker could not do the same plan -- schedule and market the same flights, and handle the accounting -- from Phoenix, reap the same rewards, but lop off the Delta management overhead, which is 5 to 10% of operating costs... very big money.

"New Delta" would be almost triple the size of HP/US. I don't know for sure, but I doubt an airline that size could be run with the same size back office that is running US. I'm sure there could be some savings, but you can't just eliminate all of DL's office staff and run an airline of the same size.

As for why Doug Parker couldn't do the same plan, it's mainly antitrust issues. The merged carrier would have to sell off many of its most profitable assets. Looking at the DL and US Shuttles alone, right now the US shuttle makes lots of money for US and the DL shuttle makes lots of money for DL. Selling one of those would eliminate one of those two profit sources for the combined company.

It's the same with any other divestitures. Whatever is divested can no longer bring profits into the combined company, and whatever survives as a part of US/DL doesn't suddenly become more profitable because another airline will either buy the divested assets or start up new service.

There are also enormous dollar costs associated with merging fleets, equipment, airport space, etc. Not to mention the tangible and intangible costs of merging two very large groups of employees, both of which seem overwhelmingly opposed to the merger. So I don't think you can just call an airline "HP/US/DL" and eliminate all but HP management, and have the same profits those airlines made separately.



F L Y D E L T A J E T S
User currently offlineUSAirPlatinum From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 5 hours ago) and read 9685 times:

America West wasn't in bankruptcy when it bought US. The management team for AmWest had credibility in turning around a carrier, which is why they were able to get additional funding. If the old US's management team had pushed for the same loans themselves, they would have been laughed out of the room.

Delta's management team, on the other hand, has no credibility. One of the big mistakes DL made was not firing its entire senior management team and board and bringing in a turnaround artist early on. When creditors look at Delta's team, they see guys who are excellent at losing other people's money -- not guys who are adept at turning around bad situations.



"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
User currently offlineORD From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 1382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 5 hours ago) and read 9612 times:

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 21):
Delta's management team, on the other hand, has no credibility. One of the big mistakes DL made was not firing its entire senior management team and board and bringing in a turnaround artist early on. When creditors look at Delta's team, they see guys who are excellent at losing other people's money -- not guys who are adept at turning around bad situations.

You have no clue what you are talking about. Delta's management team is highly respected and has done an incredible job. In three short years, the team has increased revenues 23% from $13 billion to $16 billion and lowered costs per seat mile from 9.36 cents to 6.91. Further, they have increased services and amenities to the customer while also changing the corporate culture and increasing morale. Please tell me what "turnaround artist" could have done a better job.


User currently offlineAirzim From Zimbabwe, joined Jun 2001, 1205 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 5 hours ago) and read 9608 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
And remember there has still NEVER been a successful hostile takeover in the airline industry.

I think Texas Air's takeover of Continental would constitute a hostile takeover. Plus an example of a smaller carrier taking control over a larger one.


User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 4 hours ago) and read 9535 times:

Quoting USAirPlatinum (Reply 20):
One of the big mistakes DL made was not firing its entire senior management team and board and bringing in a turnaround artist early on. When creditors look at Delta's team, they see guys who are excellent at losing other people's money -- not guys who are adept at turning around bad situations.

That's funny, to me it seems like DL's management did a way better turn around then someone like, oh say, US Airways' management who is making the airline suffer from their dreadfully poor service and dim employees.



The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
User currently offlineUSAirPlatinum From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 4 hours ago) and read 9504 times:

Quote:
That's funny, to me it seems like DL's management did a way better turn around then someone like, oh say, US Airways' management

I guess if driving the company into Chapter 11, losing $1 billion a year, and making it vulnerable to a takeover bid from a major competitor is doing well, then Delta's management is world-class.  rotfl 



"Hey guys, Delta is OUR Delta right now." -- Unpaid Creditors
25 Evan767 : Woah woah woah hang on there buddy. I thought we were talking about DL's current management who drastically turned the airline around, not the Leo Mu
26 Halls120 : I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for comment from DOJ on the proposed merger.
27 Pbottenb : WOW - You're really are being rude here. I dont care one way on another on this merger. But I do fly US Airways frequently (50K miles per year for th
28 USAirPlatinum : Some analysts weigh in on Delta's poor "standalone" prospects: That was before the pilots restructured their contract, but Delta's costs are high and
29 Post contains links Pbottenb : One more thought on the quality of services and employees, from an (as far as I know) independent source:WebFlyer Ratings and Reviews: http://www.web
30 USAirPlatinum : Dividend Miles is *vastly* superior to SkyMiles. In fact, Delta depreciated SkyMiles so dramatically that there was a campaign launched by their own f
31 Cityguy : As a US Chairmans-I can tell you the airline stinks and Parker is not making PHL OPS better at all. I can't wait to try other airlines in 2007. I had
32 VonRichtofen : Well, there hasn't really been a turnaround yet. They may have lowered costs but the airline is still unprofitable. I do not hate/love either Delta o
33 Post contains images SLCUT2777 : You make absolutely no sense whatsoever with what you just said. PanAm was on the very verge of collapse by the late 1980s. Lockerbie is what finally
34 NADC10Fan : I must say that you, sir, are truly becoming offensive in your outright baiting on the issue of this merger. I have not been inclined to take sides p
35 Post contains links Cubastar : [quote=USAirPlatinum,reply=28]Some analysts weigh in on Delta's poor "standalone" prospects: Quote: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11841763/ Delta Air Li
36 USAirPlatinum : So because I am taking a point of view different from yours, I should be banned from posting? Something tells me you weren't calling for similar term
37 Post contains images SLCUT2777 : You're so anti DL it makes me want to The moderators may not do anything, but you RR rating will remain a big 0 for a long time and in fact would sho
38 Post contains links Panamair : LIES. Do you see 0.5 MQMs for LUT fares around anymore? LIES. Q3 2006 Mainline ex-Fuel CASM (Stage length adjusted): DL: 6.68 cents NW: 6.72 cents AA
39 DeltAirlines : And could I see your proof for this? Yes, Delta did devalue their SkyMiles program. Yes, Save SkyMiles came about. And yes, it's been changed a bit.
40 NADC10Fan : No, sir. You should - and, as I said, in many areas would - be banned for exhibiting behaviour that is almost never anything more than baiting those
41 USAirPlatinum : I didn't say "Delta's costs sans fuel were relatively high when compared to legacy carriers." I said "Delta's costs are high." Not only in comparison
42 USAirPlatinum : You mean, not apologizing for disagreeing with people who think they're right? Whatever. Got something to add to the debate itself, or are you going
43 Post contains links Evan767 : I'm sorry if I offended you Pbottenb. My insult was directed at USAirPlatinum. Why would I be so rude and untruthful? Why would I insult the airline'
44 Post contains images NADC10Fan : And yet another brilliant rebuttal awaits ... No. Read what I write. It's clear enough; you don't need to try and interpret it ... unless, of course,
45 Pbottenb : " target=_blank>http://www.airliners.net/discussions...47770 No worries, Since Im not a US employee I did not feel that offended, but there really has
46 Spartanmjf : And white the takeover happened, I don't think that anyone believes that it was, in point of fact, a success. Texas Air almost destroyed Continental
47 AvConsultant : This sounds like a lot of employees on here which is fine. I hope DL employees are not fooled into thinking the company wants to look out for them fi
48 Litz : Umm .... actually, DL did ... what you're failing to realize is that DL did this prior to their BK filing when they started their restructuring and t
49 Floridaflyboy : Surprise, surprise, surprise, there goes USAirPlatinum shoving his foot in his mouth YET AGAIN!! You ought to at least know what you are talking abou
50 VonRichtofen : Not even close to the largest by a long shot. STAR is probably bigger than both Oneworld and Skyteam combined. Kris
51 NADC10Fan : A defense? By someone else? How fascinating ... Wow. Flipped off, yet. And I'm the one being ridiculous. Okay ... Sport. So, you have a dog in this fi
52 Halls120 : Perhaps the mods have "put up" with his behavior because it isn't as offensive as you seem to believe it is. Have to second this suggestion. USAirPla
53 NADC10Fan : I am gradually coming to that conclusion ... not that this means I believe for a moment such behaviour should be tolerated, mind you. Well, other tha
54 DLPMMM : I agree that USAirPlatinum is not "ban-worthy". He has a right to say what he wants, no matter how inane and ill-informed his statements are. So far,
55 SHUPirate1 : Mr. Parker has, up until mid-November, done a pretty darned good job with the entity formerly known as America West, and currently known as US Airway
56 Airzim : Wow you took that one right out of the Worldtraveler playbook. Make a false statement, get proven wrong, then try to cover up by making something up
57 WorldTraveler : "whinny"? must be revisionist spelling. DL's creditors very simply have the choice of forcing DL to load up on debt in order to get more now or allow
58 AvConsultant : OK, that's interesting. I know the big players in STAR are UA, US, LH. SkyTeam is CO, DL NW, AF, KL, AZ along with others thus I was thinking those a
59 Bucky707 : and if the merger goes through, he'll be back in BK even sooner.
60 Jacobin777 : According to DL's own numbers.. "September Quarter 2006 Mainline Stage Length Adjusted Non-Fuel CASM(1,2) (¢) US:6.43/DL:6.68-6.47-so even after DL'
61 DLPMMM : As the smallest, they should have the least amount of debt. All the USA carriers have waaay too much debt. On emergence from Chapter 11, DL will have
62 Post contains links KarlB737 : Courtesy: Arizona Republic Parker Blasts Delta's Plan http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepu...rticles/1222biz-usairways1222.html
63 Post contains links Vega : Creditors Urge Delta to Weigh Options: http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/061222/delta_us_airways.html?.v=12
64 Jacobin777 : My point was that US's financial and competitive situation will not be as "dire" as Worldtraveler has stated it will. Also, DL and US don't compete o
65 LAXdude1023 : Thanks for posting the article KarlB. I response to the article, what would you expect him to say? DL and Company have blasted US on every single issu
66 Floridaflyboy : Exactly. Parker is an incredible leader who has accomplished some great things (i.e. the so-far progress on the HP/US merger). He is just a little of
67 Litz : I wouldn't say they have an abysmal future ... once they get their house in order and finish their merger they should be fine. And that, I think, is
68 AvConsultant : When we say DL has less debt, is this what they desire to have? If so, what did DL trade off for the debt? They compete on the shuttle operations. US
69 Jacobin777 : Sure their shuttle services do to a certain extent (even that isn't "tit-for-tat" as you mention), but their mainline service barely compete at all..
70 LAXdude1023 : Specific routes dont compete with each other. For example DL doesnt do CLT-LAX and US doesnt do ATL-LAX. However they do compete for connecting traff
71 Jacobin777 : But that isn't anything the DOJ would look at too much anyway...
72 Litz : Something else to consider is this : if your business plan covers servicing it, having corporate debt isn't exactly a bad thing. It's not ideal of cou
73 Post contains images Airlinespotter : You are a really US hater aren't you. Well, that is fine and that's what this forum is all about, but Somehow I have a feeling that they will be fine
74 AvConsultant : This is what the DoJ is concerned with. These are examples so no one best my balls on inaccurate numbers. CLT Market share US 80% DL 11% Other carrie
75 NADC10Fan : While I haven't seen them, I don't look everywhere on A-net to see those that get truly personal. I've been around for a couple of years, but general
76 SHUPirate1 : Delta is no pushover at LaGuardia either, with 121 daily departures. FYI, the combined carrier would have a whopping 323 daily slot-pairs at LaGuardi
77 Airzim : I rest my case.
78 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : ""Merged carriers will be forced to give up routes to other carriers..." When you hear this, you have absolute proof it's from somebody whose airline
79 Post contains links and images NADC10Fan : Most useful and persuasive ... Try something like this instead. Creditors urge Delta to rethink stand-alone restructuring plan First found this readi
80 Okie73 : true, but not applicable. This is a deregulated industry and no carrier can be forced to drop a route. On the other hand, when it comes to mergers, t
81 Jacobin777 : It will be interesting to see what the DOJ forces US to do if it takes DL over..the aviation environment has changed a lot since UA's attempt to take
82 SHUPirate1 : I would actually like to know how the DOJ would actually force US Delta Air Ways to stop serving certain routes. I could see how they could force them
83 DLPMMM : Long Term debt is a financial term describing long term loans from investors (as opposed to equity). Less debt meant that the company will have less
84 Post contains images NW748i : 'Scuse me for interrupting all the arguing , but... I have a feeling that they just want US to up its offer--and I doubt they'll have to wait long. Ev
85 LawnDart : In considering an acquisition of DL by US, the DoJ will not, and may not, force either carrier to "drop a route". They can't. The domestic market is
86 Okie73 : You are right about the mechanics. DOJ won't tell them they have to get rid of routes, at leasts not publically. What will happen behind the scenes i
87 Gbfra : Interesting question, but it's difficult to speculate on that. I'd guess EU would just go with the flow, because it's not a very big deal for them. O
88 LawnDart : There's the rub...airlines do sell slots, however, in a DoJ enforced divestiture (of many slots), low-cost carriers could rightly argue that slots ar
89 Jacobin777 : Interesting observation, but my take would be that what would be the "net-net" amount of slots Parker would gain? HP/US doesn't have those DL slots y
90 USAirPlatinum : The wishful thinking from the Delta status-quo cheerleaders isn't panning out. You can be certain that if the unsecured creditors not on the committee
91 OA412 : Until now I've resisted responding to your posts but, this comment just made me chuckle as it embodies so clearly the fact that you know next to noth
92 Panamair : Complete lack of knowledge of the DL side of things as usual. CVG has been profitable since the capacity pulldown; routes like CVG-LGW generate bette
93 LAXdude1023 : I do believe these routes should happen, but you dont need a merger for these. I would also think PHX-NRT should be in the cards for US. This route i
94 NW748i : Have the the aircraft for that either now or even the the not-too-distant future? SAA still codeshares with DL? IIRC, they recently joined *Alliance.
95 LAXdude1023 : For the record, I didnt say this.
96 SESGDL : DL also flies JFK-ACC on their own metal. Jeremy
97 NW748i : True, but I'm specifically discussing the SAA codeshare and the affected routes. ACC isn't in South Africa...
98 Post contains links Jetdeltamsy : Looks like Gordon is coming on board. Can't figure out if being on the creditor's committee is a good thing for the company staying independent or not
99 USAirPlatinum : If all their new international routes were "doing well," DL international wouldn't be a big money loser (which it is). I gave the route as an example
100 NW748i : I think the creditors just want an objective opinion from a guy who really knows what he's talking about. I suppose if Mr. Bethune thinks US can do,
101 LAXdude1023 : I didnt say that all of their new routes were money losers, did I? I said ATL-JNB is doing well. There are probably a couple of routes from ATL to Eu
102 DL787932ER : Come on guys...remember the "rules".
103 Post contains images NW748i : I didn't do anything...
104 Post contains images DAL767400ER : You did . You replied to USAirPlatinum, and as rule #22 paragraph line 49 of the rulebook states, "Users who continuously post utter BS and can never
105 OA412 : I see that facts continue to escape you. Like Panamair already told you, US/DL will only have one NRT slot after the merger. New DL can continue to o
106 SHUPirate1 : Doesn't BA fly that route to Heathrow?
107 OA412 : Yes indeed they do, my mistake. They transferred the flight to LHR at the same time as DEN and SAN. An interesting bit of trivia, however, is that th
108 Post contains images USAirPlatinum : The New Delta will have more than enough cash to procure additional slots at NRT. The Delta cheerleaders seem to think Doug's planning on buying up t
109 Alitalia744 : My christmas wish today was to have your wisdom. Fortunately Santa got stuck in the chimney.[Edited 2006-12-26 02:01:48]
110 LAXdude1023 : Provide proof of this. I havent seen any of your predictions come true yet.
111 Post contains images USAirPlatinum : Patience, my friends, patience. I'm looking forward to welcoming you into the US Airways family.
112 777FlyGuy : These US/DL threads are getting tiresome. Obviously the US Koolaid boy on a.net isn't going to change his mind, so why bother? It's like arguing with
113 USAirPlatinum : Because I make the note that Parker's plan has a better chance of succeeding than DL's business-as-usual plan, I'm a "Kool Aid boy" -- but those who i
114 Delta787 : They must not have been making a hell of alot of money at those other destinations since Delta did manage to make money in the third quarter.
115 USAirPlatinum : Delta squeaked out a small profit during the summer due to seasonal demand to Europe. Pan Am and TWA in their last days commonly managed to do the sam
116 Delta787 : Actually, I remember reading that Delta's domestic system was also profitable during the period.
117 USAirPlatinum : Delta's domestic system was the only profitable part of the company. The losses from international declined during the summer months, allowing the fir
118 Delta787 : I would like to know why in you opinion USAirPlatinum, why you believe Delta will fail within a certain amount of time after exiting bankruptcy compar
119 Delta787 : Also, you keep talking about Doug Parker's proven track record with mergers. He has only ever lead one merger and that one still hasnt been a complete
120 Post contains images OA412 :
121 Supa7E7 : You're generalizing, but so what if you're right? Running 3 airlines as a collusive mob is definitely going to be more profitable than 3 airlines com
122 USAirPlatinum : Doug doesn't need to have a complete success. He just needs a general one. Only the most drug-induced analyst would argue that US Airways isn't succe
123 Delta787 : Delta isnt either. They've cut several Peurto Rico routes that werent working. They also cut MAA. So for you to say that Delta isnt cutting routes th
124 Jacobin777 : In fairness to UA, UA was coming out of a situation when aviation travel was very depressed...DL is attempting to come out of bankruptcy with record
125 LAXdude1023 : You said: PROVE IT. You can talk out your ass all you want. You said everything is coming just like you said. PROVE IT WITH SOMETHING REAL like a pre
126 Supa7E7 : Yeah I am not real sure DL and US will merge either. But maybe. Doug is smart. So are the DL managers. The difference is, US running DL can cut manage
127 Okie73 : the very fact that you say this shows you know nothing about Delta. The only top management person who was here was Grinstein, and he was not in mang
128 TL8490 : The only benefits people can really turn to is the cutting of costs and the resulting profits....All the assumptions are based on cutting to profitabi
129 DeltaGuy : Does anyone see a problem with these two statements made right after each other? I mean, I'm confused. Which is it? DeltaGuy
130 SESGDL : Yes, there is a problem. It's USAirPlatinum talking, that's a problem in itself. He's demonstrated through his posts that he knows little about DL or
131 Jacobin777 : Or about other subjects (such as BA/LHR/Bermuda-II)....
132 WorldTraveler : USAir Platinum is nothing but a scared US employee who knows US has no strategic future and can only hope for this merger to save his and Parker's hid
133 Supa7E7 : I think that may be true. US is running things differently. US hubs are uniformly sub-prime. LAX,ORD,ATL,JFK,MIA,DFW,IAH,IAD are the nation's prime a
134 Jacobin777 : In fairness....1)that might be one of the reasons Parker wants to buy a "majour" so that he can get a hub at one of the larger airports 2)US does hav
135 NW748i : I think that's true and is thus it logically follows that US would make a move against Delta (or any airline 'too close' to them and that has what US
136 DAL767400ER : The DOJ doesn't really care about level playing fields among the Big 6. What they care about is competition at the large hub and focus airports, some
137 NW748i : Well that's my point. US doesn't have that presence. While I would expect DoJ to make the 'New Delta' to give up slots, it would allow them (US) into
138 DAL767400ER : And again, the DOJ could care less whether US has that presence or not. That's the choice US made years (or decades) ago, not something the DOJ choos
139 USAirPlatinum : I had an extensive thread on the issue where I don't believe you contributed any content. I'm not going to double-post everything from there over her
140 Post contains images DAL767400ER : And obviously you don't feel the need to provide the link to that supposed "proving thread" either, what a coincidence, right ?
141 Silentbob : Every time I saw an exec leave over the last few months, US didn't replace them. They have spread those duties over the remaining execs and that has
142 Agill : Well if they make money on the domestic routes and loose less than normal on the european routes "due to seasonal demand to Europe", they could make
143 USAirPlatinum : I'm not in the business of spoon-feeding lazy Delta fanboys. The thread is on the front page and is entitled "Surveying US Airways' Investor Presenta
144 LAXdude1023 : Dude, the problem is that you have made a lot of bold statements and have provided nothing to back it up. You can speculate and thats fine, but dont
145 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Better to be the biggest fish in a small pond than a small fish in a big pond...
146 Post contains images USAirPlatinum : I've provided plenty to back it up -- links and citations to court documents, forms 10-Q, etc. The problem isn't that I haven't provided evidence (ev
147 LAXdude1023 : Dude, your just speculating like the rest of us. You dont know whats going to happen any more than I do or anyone else. You dont know what the credit
148 USAirPlatinum : I don't recall claiming that I had any special knowledge. I simply pointed out a POV that's unpopular amongst DL folks, but rooted in the reality of
149 TVNWZ : Dude, Gordon Bethune just entered the fray. All bets are off. Not good for DL. The official creditor's committee wants to hire him to evaluate the off
150 Post contains links USAirPlatinum : Last I'd heard, he'd not yet formally accepted. Here's an article on it: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/4422317.html
151 TVNWZ : Doesn't matter. I think this is a big message to DL management by the committee. If I was Grinstein, I would consider it such.
152 Silentbob : Didn't Bethune comment on this merger a while ago? I seem to recall his comments were not all that favorable when Parker went public, but I could very
153 DAL767400ER : And just because of that you think he would be in favor of this merger? Bethune might be for consolidation, but he is a business man, and if he sees
154 Post contains images 777FlyGuy : I agree. The HP/US marriage has probably only delayed what was inevitable with US several years ago, liquidation. (As I've said before), my brother i
155 Post contains images NW748i : I agree and think that would be great. I would push a bit further and say that some of the hubs that DoJ might be concerned about in the 'New Delta'
156 LAXdude1023 : Indeed he is pro-merger, but that doesnt mean hes pro-every merger. If WN tried to buy out AC or something wierd like that, I dont think he would be
157 Post contains images SLCUT2777 : USAirPlatinum just wants to grab DL's International routes, especially those to Latin America (including the Caribbean), not to mention Europe. That
158 WorldTraveler : How laughable. Other network airlines have better IT depts to support their ongoing non-merger network than US has to support one they are trying to
159 FlyPNS1 : Congress has no direct say in the merger. They can hold hearings and they can apply pressure, but in the end, Congress has no say. I really hope DL m
160 WorldTraveler : you would have to rip out half of DL/US' combined capacity at all of its east coast hubs in order for competition to no longer be harmed.... and at th
161 AvConsultant : Market share does not guarantee profits. This has been a issue with DL management Well said, PHL is HORRIBLE without a hub operation.
162 Post contains images SLCUT2777 :    I think "Dougie" wants to do exactly this, and get rid of SLC in the west even though right now he would never publicly admit to such a scheme.
163 Supa7E7 : Operationally US is probably a snakepit. But they definitely have a way cheaper, brand new, antique-free IT structure (or let's hope so) courtesy of
164 Supa7E7 : Doug may hope for that but actually, he is more of an intelligent cost-cutter. He did preserve all of the US Airways high RASM, but he cut out manage
165 DLPMMM : Just like they were on to something with the telecoms, Enron, Worldcom, and ZZZZbest. Wall Street is very biased toward short term monetary gains. Th
166 Okie73 : then why has LCC stock been trending down since an initial pop after Parker went public?
167 OA412 : Absolutely agree with this! Despite Parker's continued reassurances that LAS, PHX, and SLC will all remain hubs of the "new" DL, I simply don't buy i
168 FlyPNS1 : I'd love to see where this analysis comes from. Where did you get this half capacity value? Don't you think giving up some slots/gates at constrained
169 DLPMMM : I don't know that the DL plan is so strong, but the LCC offer is certainly weak. $4 billion in cash borrowed against the DL unsecured assets plus som
170 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Besides AA @ DFW not one carrier is immune......even DL has some competition at ATL with FL.... Also, the HP/UA's share aren't shrinking all that muc
171 Vega : Well if it was indeed true that PHL is as you say (which it is not), then it is a fact that Delta and Atlanta are far worse: October 2006 DOT Statist
172 DeltaGuy : Isn't it interesting that anyone someone wants to show how horrible of an airpiort ATL is, the only thing they show is information that is 3 months o
173 WorldTraveler : Vega is representative of all that US tries to do to paint itself well when compared with DL - manipulate data and ignore any piece of data that doesn
174 Post contains images SLCUT2777 : The only secondary creditor that wants the deal with Parker and US to go that I've heard is Wells Fargo Bank. But from what I'm hearing is that the m
175 FlyPNS1 : So you're telling me that a few dozen cities that hardly anyone flies out of are going to stop this merger? Get real. DL has been losing marketshare
176 Post contains links DeltaGuy : You just told me in another DL/US thread that DL and US had different plans. While DL lowered capacity(a whopping 3%) to "help" US, they were focusin
177 Post contains links KarlB737 : Courtesy: Arizona Republic USAirways Sticking To Delta Takeover Bid http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepu...s/articles/1229biz-parker1229.html
178 Silentbob : There's no way the DoJ will force them to give up DCA or anything even remotely that drastic. Going that far would be far beyond what is necessary an
179 Post contains images SLCUT2777 : Actually the DoJ will be VERY concerned about any slot controlled airport such as DCA or LGA. With smaller/newer LCCs chomping at the bit to get in,
180 Vega : Actually it is you who consistently provides banter with little or no proof - just review your countless, repetitive posts like the above. What most
181 Silentbob : I agree that they will be required to sell off some slots at controlled airports, at least they very well should be required to do so. I don't believ
182 DAL767400ER : And yet Delta still has almost 3/4 market share in ATL, currently YTD at around 73,4%. That's a percentage US only can dream of at their Southwest-in
183 USAirPlatinum : There are no "DL unsecured assets." Delta's debt far exceeds its assets, and any bankruptcy resolution would either liquidate or secure those assets
184 Airzim : Very nicely put.
185 Post contains links Xflyer : Update from the author "Airline Without a Pilot, Lessons in Leadership, from the success, decline, survival and rebirth of Delta Air Lines" by Harry L
186 NW748i : With the FAA's concerns about stress being put upon the NAS and funding challenges, reduced frequencies on larger craft are strongly encouraged anywa
187 SLCUT2777 : Actually this is something that Parker, Kirby and the boys haven't looked into as thoroughly as they should have before proposing this. It will be si
188 WorldTraveler : Except its DOZENS of cities. And it is the federal government's responsibility to protect ALL America - several dozen cities are not going to be thro
189 FlyPNS1 : Sorry but this is just desperation on your part. Virtually every merger in America is bad for at least some consumers. So by your logic, mergers shou
190 LawnDart : You bring up an interesting point. Andrew Nocella, , Senior Vice President of Schedule Planning and Alliances at USAirways, suggested recently in a l
191 WorldTraveler : Funny how US wants to be GSO's savior after cutting thousands of jobs and dozens of flights there. I'd like to see the data for that.... I don't belie
192 Supa7E7 : Huh? Network carriers compete daily on price. Nobody is more or less expensive than the others. It is only when flights fill up that the weaker playe
193 FlyPNS1 : What??? You are kidding me. A merger of NW/DL would mean hefty losses for consumers in both the midwest and the south. In many midwest markets, the c
194 Supa7E7 : Breakfast cereals have 2 main players nationwide. Do you really think cereal costs $4 to make per box? Try 40 cents. Think about that monopoly for a s
195 DAL767400ER : 2 airline town perhaps, but DL used to be way more dominant. Going by ATL's statistic, in 2000 for the full year DL had a marketshare of 78.26%, of w
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