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757 Partial Cause For Song Failure?  
User currently offlineJetSet777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 33 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8201 times:

Southwest is still growing with an all 737 fleet and obviously they went with the perfect sized A/C for their routes and loads. Could the 757 have just been too large of an A/C for a LCC like Song?


Engines Turn Or People Swim
41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 941 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8189 times:
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First of all, Song was not a failure. The essentials which made Song unique are now being applied across much of mainline Delta... live TV, video on demand etc.

Song was a marketing concept... an "airline" within an airline. It operated under DL's operating certificate, DL's pilots, DL's maintenece and Song flights were called DL 2xxx by ATC.

What did not work with Song was the lack of recognition for medallions, DL's best customers, and the lack of FC cabin. DL essentially used Song to test some concepts and is now well underway towards applying these concepts across much of the mainline carrier.


User currently offlineJetSet777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8171 times:

There are plans to integrate Song's 57's into the DL mainline fleet.


Engines Turn Or People Swim
User currently offlineDw9115 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 449 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8155 times:

I flew Song many times and loved it absolutely loved it and Delta should make all mainline flights like Song. the 737-800 would have been a much better aircraft for song though.

User currently offlineOttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8163 times:

Quoting JetSet777 (Reply 2):
There are plans to integrate Song's 57's into the DL mainline fleet.

Already done and complete.

Quoting Dw9115 (Reply 3):
Delta should make all mainline flights like Song. the 737-800 would have been a much better aircraft for song though.

They already are.



OttoPylit


User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 941 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8020 times:
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There are still some 757s with the Song paint job, but all the interiors have been converted to 2 cabin aircraft with a 26 seat FC cabin. There are no longer any all coach 757s in the DL fleet.

User currently offlineJfrworld From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 365 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8012 times:

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 1):
Song was a marketing concept... an "airline" within an airline.

Was Song really a marketing concept? I know Delta called it an experiment once they decided to end the Song concept and re-intergrate it into mainline Delta, but I still have a hard time believing that they would have the intention of launching Song and growing it as big as they did just for an experiment.

I still think song was meant to stand alone under its own business model, but once it was determined that it could not, Delta decided to end it and use it as a lessons learned and incorporate the "Good" leassons into mainline Delta.

I'm not saying that it wasn't good for them to figure out what worked and incorporate it into mainline, but I just don't believe that it was launched and intented to be a marketing experiment.


User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 47
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8012 times:

Song was a marketing concept... an "airline" within an airline

Yup. Totally, very unique concept. Just like Metrojet, Shuttle By United, Continental West, New York Air, Continental LITE, Delta Express, and Ted.


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7959 times:

There was a Frontline special from 2004 about advertising that had a pretty good profile of Song and what they were trying to do. Delata going into the shitter didn't help things much.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl.../shows/persuaders/etc/shaping.html


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26449 posts, RR: 75
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7902 times:

The 757 was the perfect for Song. The reason being that DL's main competitor on Song routes, jetBlue, had a much lower cost base to start with. What DL did is use a larger aircraft (at the time, 37 more seats) to bring Song's CASM down to a level competitive with what B6 offered using the A320 so they could compete on a fare level without losing even more cash than they already were.


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineLitz From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1764 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7742 times:
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Quoting JetSet777 (Reply 2):
There are plans to integrate Song's 57's into the DL mainline fleet.

Plan? Err ... Considering DL's plans for their fleet (IFE, redressed cabin, etc.) those 757s are now the LEAD aircraft in the fleet !

The rest of the fleet (sans the MD80/MD90s) are simply going to join them.

Not bad for a "failed" concept, eh?

 Smile

- litz


User currently offlineScalebuilder From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7720 times:

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 1):
First of all, Song was not a failure. The essentials which made Song unique are now being applied across much of mainline Delta... live TV, video on demand etc.

I thought that the introduction of Song was such a success that there were real "learning lessons" made for Delta mainline. I guess this is what you're stating. Right?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):
The 757 was the perfect for Song. The reason being that DL's main competitor on Song routes, jetBlue, had a much lower cost base to start with. What DL did is use a larger aircraft (at the time, 37 more seats) to bring Song's CASM down to a level competitive with what B6 offered using the A320 so they could compete on a fare level without losing even more cash than they already were.

What you say makes a lot of sense. However, I am somewhat confused as to whether the Song concept will be as recognized and appreciated under the regular Delta brand. The economics may exist on paper, but the market recognition of this great stunt may simply be gone with the phasing out of Song. I think the "Song" brand name enjoyed better and more favorable brand recognition than its parent ever has enjoyed lately.


User currently offlineBoston92 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7718 times:

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 1):

Exactly, an airline within an airline; but Song was useful, unlike TED with United.



"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7634 times:

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 12):
Exactly, an airline within an airline; but Song was useful, unlike TED with United.

..but Song is gone and TED still exists..maybe TED is working...



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineBoston92 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7590 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 13):
..but Song is gone and TED still exists..maybe TED is working...

I never said TED is not working but:
TED took over UA routes with UA a/c, re-done cabin, and all econ seats.

SONG opened entirely new routes with entirely new product with DL a/c. Those routes would not have happened if Song had not happened, and to this day I believe all of the Song Routes are still there.

I never said Ted is not working, I just said it is useless, all it is a new livery while Song was different than DL.

BTW, the reason Song is not there anymore was to make DL a better airline, not because Song was not working.



"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7582 times:

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 14):

I never said Ted is not working, I just said it is useless, all it is a new livery while Song was different than DL.

If its working (i.e.-generating positive ROI), then why would it be considered "useless"?



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineFloridaflyboy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2010 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7570 times:

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 14):
and to this day I believe all of the Song Routes are still there.

They sure are! Some of them have been downgraded to a smaller aircraft with capacity reallocation, but they're all still running.



Good goes around!
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7500 times:

The problem is this - by moving to all Y aircraft, the legacies lost out on their C traffic and C customers, I think the idea of running the Song/Ted aircraft on routes in parallel to conventional routes, or with a first class cabin. It did help DL hone what pax wanted in Y, and as a result, they are prepared to let out the premier, most luxurious and innovative domestic Y of any major airline in the US.


"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12138 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7215 times:

Song was not a "failed concept". DL had to ground Song, and reintrgate the B-757s back into the DL fleet. There are still several B-757s flying with the Song livery, but, as they go through their "C" or "D" checks, the airplanes get striped and repainted in DL livery. You may have noticed, all of the "Song birds" kept the original DL registration tail numbers. But, DL did learn a lot from Song, and is still incorperating these concepts throughout the airline.

For DL, Song was their best pre-bankruptcy idea in years.


User currently offlineZenarcade From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 85 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7141 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 8):
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl.../shows/persuaders/etc/shaping.html

Thanks so much for the link Dougloid!

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 12):
think the "Song" brand name enjoyed better and more favorable brand

DL shot them selves in the foot on this one. Sure you can change layouts, entertainment, etc but you can not easily change that in the consumers mind your still just DL. I think they need focus a little harder on brand image, starting with the livery!  Wink



If a plane falls on the tarmac and no one is there, does it make any sound? - Starlionblue
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 6912 times:

Quoting Matt D (Reply 7):
Yup. Totally, very unique concept. Just like Metrojet, Shuttle By United, Continental West, New York Air

New York Air was not an airline within an airline like the ones you mention, but rather a subsidiary of Texas Air.

TED, SONG, CO West, etc, all used mainline crews, maintenance, infrastructure, etc, where as NY had it own operation seperate from CO under the umbrella of Texas Air.

NY was a seperate Airline.

True, some of the original DC-9-30's came from Texas Air, most of NY's fleet was owned and operated by NY.

http://www.nya-reunion.org/ProjectAlpha.htm


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 6869 times:

Quoting Zenarcade (Reply 19):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 8):
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl.../shows/persuaders/etc/shaping.html

Thanks so much for the link Dougloid!

It was nothing, m'good fellow-a mere bagatelle.



Funny thing is, it was on a Frontline here this past week....imagine my amazement in this show about marketing they start talking about this waaaaaaaaay out there airline idea....which, it seems, still excites passionate believers.
I am willing to bet it was a fun place to work...plus the CEO was hot.
 Wink  Wink


User currently offlineBoston92 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6665 times:

Quoting Zenarcade (Reply 19):
think the "Song" brand name enjoyed better and more favorable brand

DL shot them selves in the foot on this one. Sure you can change layouts, entertainment, etc but you can not easily change that in the consumers mind your still just DL. I think they need focus a little harder on brand image, starting with the livery!

What are you quoting me on? I never even wrote that!

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 15):
If its working (i.e.-generating positive ROI), then why would it be considered "useless"?

It is useless because if Ted was not there, United would be making just as much as they are now because no new routes were attained. UA probably lost money by changing the livery and the cabin of the Ted A320's.



"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4110 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6645 times:

Quoting Jfrworld (Reply 6):
Was Song really a marketing concept? I know Delta called it an experiment once they decided to end the Song concept and re-intergrate it into mainline Delta, but I still have a hard time believing that they would have the intention of launching Song and growing it as big as they did just for an experiment.

I still think song was meant to stand alone under its own business model, but once it was determined that it could not, Delta decided to end it and use it as a lessons learned and incorporate the "Good" leassons into mainline Delta.

I'm not saying that it wasn't good for them to figure out what worked and incorporate it into mainline, but I just don't believe that it was launched and intented to be a marketing experiment.

I agree completely. I think it's disingenuous to say, after the fact, that Song was nothing more than a 'marketing concept.' Was there clear agreement beforehand that it was a marketing concept rather than a full-fledged airline-within-an-airline? I don't believe there was.

In this day and age of airlines awash in red ink, how many stockholders would have agreed with going THAT far into something that was merely a 'marketing concept?' You can get a 'marketing concept' without doing 90% of what they did to launch Song.

It's nice, with 20-20 hindsight, to say that this is all it was. But I'm not buying it.

Chris in NH


User currently offlineMiCorazonAzul From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6593 times:

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 1):
First of all, Song was not a failure.

RRRIIIIGGHHHTT......

If Song wasn't a failure? why is it not around anymore? Of course they chose to integrate the product into mainline because the planes already HAD the TVs etc. The product itself was successful....who doesnt love TV's on the plane etc? However, SONG as a whole was a big failure and that's why those lime green airplanes are slowly disappearing and being painted in Delta colors.

Quoting Jfrworld (Reply 6):
Was Song really a marketing concept? I know Delta called it an experiment once they decided to end the Song concept and re-intergrate it into mainline Delta, but I still have a hard time believing that they would have the intention of launching Song and growing it as big as they did just for an experiment.

Exactly. Song was made to be an airline by itself. F/A's had different uniforms etc etc. It was totally seperate from Delta. For example, Ted by United is CLEARLY connected to mainline. F/A's wear the same uniform and they make it clear that it is part of United.


25 Coa747 : I'm not buying it either. Because it was an airline within an airline and used all Delta mainline equipment, pilots and the like it is also very diffi
26 Jacobin777 : Considering TED is still around would lead one to believe that it is a profitable endeavour.......for now, it seems as if TED is serving its purpose.
27 Post contains images Richierich : There have been many threads regarding Song and what it meant for DL. Trust me, we could go on for hours discussing what worked and what didn't work.
28 MaverickM11 : I remember a lot of analysts saying this and I always thought it was such crap. For starters, for a long time B6 wanted a bigger A320. Also, in price
29 Post contains images BostonGuy : I agree. This "marketing concept" excuse is a huge spinning shovel spreading you know what
30 Boston92 : The only reason Ted is still around is because there would be no point to converting it back to UA, they would still be making the same amt of money
31 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I guess we'll agree to disagree (for now) then...
32 AvConsultant : Neither a success, you do not need a rebranded product for a testbed. One of the problems with Song- Delta's nicest and most advanced product was it'
33 Post contains links DTW757 : I flew onboard a Song aircraft last week, N609DL from SNA-ATL and I really enjoyed it. The fact that we had the PTV's along with 2 snacks on the fligh
34 Post contains images Boston92 : I concur
35 DeltaJet757 : The only thing I didn't like about Song was the interior colors but the paint job was okay but no great. Other than that it was very nice.
36 SRT75 : Am I the only one that thinks this statement is dripping with irony? How can a concept be "good" or "best" if it leads to (or ultimately contributes
37 Post contains images Floridaflyboy : Not at all. I knew before I even looked at your profile that you must work at another east-coast LCC In fact, song was very successful from a busines
38 Bond007 : You don't create an airline for only 2 years, just "to test some concepts ", please. It failed, and they are taking some of the things that worked an
39 AvConsultant : Very true, a great product offering and the 757 is an expensive platform to operate a LCC. What amazes me is DL & UA dissolve there "airline in an ai
40 RobertS975 : Chris, what I meant is that Song was a paint job and marketing... it never had its own operating certificate, pilots, maintenence, dispatch etc. It w
41 Garri767 : My gosh folks! (sorry, had to show some texan there :P) DL said from the start Song was not here to stay. They said that they plan to integrate Song i
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