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STL Who Is The Top Dog Now  
User currently offlineJetJeanes From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4515 times:

After Aa bought Tw, AA was going to make stl a hub but obviously that didnt happen. but has anyone stepped up to the plate to make this a hub for them yet or any negotiations going on?? Wn seems to have a decent little ops their but is anyone like Tw looking at it


i can see for 80 miles
24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineLambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2074 posts, RR: 36
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4470 times:

Quoting JetJeanes (Thread starter):
After Aa bought Tw, AA was going to make stl a hub but obviously that didnt happen. but has anyone stepped up to the plate to make this a hub for them yet or any negotiations going on?? Wn seems to have a decent little ops their but is anyone like Tw looking at it

It was a large hub for about 3 years, then in November of 2003 cutbacks were put in place. Ever since then AA's presence in St. Louis has been about 200-210 flights a day (60 mainline/140 regional affiliate).

WN and AA peacefully coexist in St. Louis, as for the most part, they sort of let each other have markets.


User currently offlineCIDflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2285 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4391 times:

Quoting JetJeanes (Thread starter):
AA was going to make stl a hub but obviously that didnt happen. but has anyone stepped up to the plate to make this a hub for them yet or any negotiations going on??

AA still has a hub at STL, it is still top dog in STL at about 210 daily flights (mainline and connection) while SWA has about 70 I think. AA's hub pre Nov 2003 was about the same size as the ORD hub. There had been some talks about JetBlue opening up a hub there this year but nothing has ever become of that. AA seems happy there with the cutbacks they have made and continues to tweak its schedules here and there. If for some reason merger mania takes place in the industry they could ramp up there again now that they have added capicity via the new runway.


User currently offlineSkyexRamper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4207 times:

I mean someone needs to make use of the brand new billion dollar runway.

User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5073 posts, RR: 21
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4060 times:

Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 3):


I mean someone needs to make use of the brand new billion dollar runway.

Not to mention the essentially empty Concourse B and Concourse D.



Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently offlineSkyexRamper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3991 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 4):
Not to mention the essentially empty Concourse B and Concourse D.

I was in the C concourse for the 1st time 2 the other week.....not a pleasant looking interior. I've only used the charter gates on the East Terminal but I didn't realize the rest of the airport was like a warehouse. yuck...should've spent that runway money and remodeled the entire airport.


User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3980 times:

I would guess the "top dog" is WN in boardings and AA in departures when you
factor in all those turboprops and minijets.
If there was a city in the USA that needs a new terminal, its STL. That main building was there in 1957 when I flew in on a TWA connie and out on another TWA connie to LGA.
The downstairs area reminds us of dark dingy dungeon.
Any of you STL folks know if there is a move to build a new terminal?
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3910 times:

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 6):
I would guess the "top dog" is WN in boardings and AA in departures when you
factor in all those turboprops and minijets.

American (not including AE) still is "top dog" in passenger share with around 31% to WN's 26%...its close and the data might have changed the past few months...

Top destinations are (in numerical order)

ORD
DFW
DEN
PHX
MDW

besides PHX, all have seen an increase in pax count over the past year.

Cheers.



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineHPAEAA From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3890 times:

I don't know the validity of it, but I was talking to a mechanic in STL a few weeks ago, he told me that almost all of the un-used gates would have to have jetbridges replaced if another carrier came in to use them... I guess AA has been pirating parts for a while and left most unusable. Anyone know how true?


Why do I fly???
User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5692 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3877 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 7):

Top Destinations on AA from STL? Or just from STL alone including the airlines?

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3833 times:

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 9):

Top Destinations on AA from STL? Or just from STL alone including the airlines?

All inclusive with all carriers...given how AA/WN compete at STL and what routes they fly, its possible to calculate approximate route control.

For example, WN doesn't fly to ORD, so most of the % on STL-ORD would be with AA....

Same with STL-PHX..where AA/EA doesn't fly to...so one could deduce most of the route is controlled by WN..

Cheers...



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineBoeing nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3803 times:

Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 3):
I mean someone needs to make use of the brand new billion dollar runway.

It gets plaenty of use.  Yeah sure

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 6):
Any of you STL folks know if there is a move to build a new terminal?

Nope.


User currently offlineMrSTL From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 468 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 3793 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 7):
Top destinations are (in numerical order)

ORD-- HUB AA/UA
DFW-- HUB AA
DEN-- HUB UA/F9
PHX--HUB WN/HP-US
MDW
-- HUB WN


Lot's of connecting passengers, we could easily support more non-stop service to key destinations. I do not think AA will not be the one providing it though.

Merry Christmas

[Edited 2006-12-25 21:48:02]

[Edited 2006-12-25 21:49:30]

[Edited 2006-12-25 21:50:42]

User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5413 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3729 times:

Quoting Boeing nut (Reply 11):
It gets plaenty of use.

Sure, with 1/3 of the movements that the airport had in mind when building the new runway, I bet it's really busy.

In fact, "Between its April 13 opening and Sept. 30, the runway handled about 5 percent of departures and landings".

Not bad for $1 Billion ...some of which has be paid by every STL passenger/carrier!

The runway was built based upon increasing the current arrival rates in bad weather by around 50% .... unfortunately the traffic went down by 50%.

When it was busy, almost in the top 10 airports, weather delays made a big difference. Now, when it's #29 in terms of movements, it seems little more than a huge waste of money.


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3682 times:

Quoting MrSTL (Reply 12):
Lot's of connecting passengers, we could easily support more non-stop service to key destinations. I do not think AA will not be the one providing it though.

If the markets are there, I think AA will expand again..it would be nice to see STL be what it once was!



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineBoeing Nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3536 times:

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 13):
unfortunately the traffic went down by 50%.

Which had absolutely nothing to do with the decisions that were made by the FAA and STL Airport Authority to build 11/29. It would have been absolutely ridiculous to cancel the 11/29 project because of two things that were totally unforeseen during the project - 9/11 and AA cutting and running. It would have been tragic to stop construction and to have former Bridgeton residents to have nothing to show for being kicked out of their homes.

And there is more to it than that, it comes down to ATC being a factor as well, which is no fault of theirs. They don't have extra personnel in order to conduct 11/29 operations as much as they want because of cutbacks in operations at STL, thank AA for that one.  irked  The new runway is essential for STL to survive and it does get used, even in low visibility, contrary to what some local media says.


User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5413 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3484 times:

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 15):
Which had absolutely nothing to do with the decisions that were made by the FAA and STL Airport Authority to build 11/29. It would have been absolutely ridiculous to cancel the 11/29 project because of two things that were totally unforeseen during the project - 9/11 and AA cutting and running

What I said was correct!

The runway was built to be capable of handling 3 times the traffic of today - whether the FAA and the Authorities could forsee that, is another discussion.
Let's not blame everything on 9/11 - that had little or nothing to do with it.
AA/TWA, of course that was the huge impact....BUT, today, it is still a waste of money - regardless of who's fault it is or just bad luck.

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 15):
It would have been tragic to stop construction and to have former Bridgeton residents to have nothing to show for being kicked out of their homes.

Oh, LOL, what a great reason for continuing a billion dollar project - please!


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3461 times:

I think STL would make the perfect hub for JetBlue. Not too far East or West, not too far North or South--smack dab in the middle of the country.

User currently offlineBoeing Nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3410 times:

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 16):
AA/TWA, of course that was the huge impact....BUT, today, it is still a waste of money - regardless of who's fault it is or just bad luck.

So is the war in Iraq, so is welfare, so are many other government programs.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 16):
Oh, LOL, what a great reason for continuing a billion dollar project - please!

It was paid for, and the process was well underway. Are you suggesting that they bust up 11/29 and rebuild the houses? I have a feeling you used to live in Bridgeton.

The FACT of the matter is, what's done is done and there is no going back. As I said before, 11/29 is essential to STL's survival. It will support the conditions you mentioned to attract new airlines, and could have supported all AA flights if they hadn't castrated them in the first place.


User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5413 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 3325 times:

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 18):
So is the war in Iraq, so is welfare, so are many other government programs.

Uh, yes, so it doesn't make it OK, and it doesn't make it the right decision.

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 18):
As I said before, 11/29 is essential to STL's survival. It will support the conditions you mentioned to attract new airlines,

Well, they've got a LONG way to go to justify the cost. It isn't going to happen I'm afraid.

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 18):
I have a feeling you used to live in Bridgeton.

No, I was specifically replying to this comment:

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 15):
It would have been tragic to stop construction and to have former Bridgeton residents to have nothing to show for being kicked out of their homes.

You don't spend a billion bucks just to have former Bridgeton residents smiling.

Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineSphealey From United States of America, joined May 2005, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 3302 times:

> It would have been absolutely ridiculous to cancel the 11/29
> project because of two things that were totally unforeseen
> during the project - 9/11 and AA cutting and running. It
> would have been tragic to stop construction and to have
> former Bridgeton residents to have nothing to show for being
> kicked out of their homes.

That is known as the Sunk Cost Fallacy, and it has destroyed entities as large as empires much less 2nd-rank cities.

That said, the new STL runway could still be justified as a bet on the upside of whether or not the population and total wealth of North America will continue to grow. If they do, then it is reasonable to assume that air travel will continue to increase in volume, ORD will eventually max out and airlines will need another centrally-located hub. STL is as good a location as any for that hub.

On the other hand, if oil price, environmental, bird flu, war, or other factors stop and/or reverse the growth of North America, and air travel declines, then the bet is lost.

Since there isn't much profit in being a pessimestic politician the St. Louis area powers-that-be naturally decided to take the upside of the runway bet. But they didn't explain it to the voting public that way  Wink

sPh


User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 3263 times:

Quoting CIDflyer (Reply 2):
AA still has a hub at STL

Is the STL "hub" structured in banks, or is it mostly for the local market with any connections resulting due to coincidence rather than design?


User currently offlineBoeing Nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3210 times:

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 19):
Uh, yes, so it doesn't make it OK, and it doesn't make it the right decision.

But at the time, it was the right decision. As I said, what's done is done and there is no point of crying over spilled milk.

Quoting Sphealey (Reply 20):
That is known as the Sunk Cost Fallacy, and it has destroyed entities as large as empires much less 2nd-rank cities.

Hind sight is a b*%#h, ain't it?


User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5413 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3200 times:

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 22):
no point of crying over spilled milk.

No crying, just stating some facts.




Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineBoeing Nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 3135 times:

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 23):
no point of crying over spilled milk.
No crying, just stating some facts.

That's the thing about facts - there's nothing we can do to change them.

Regards


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