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China Airlines To Order 10 747-8 Replace 343/744  
User currently offlineJimyvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 4 months 20 hours ago) and read 21657 times:

http://udn.com/NEWS/FINANCE/FIN1/3660797.shtml (Chinese Big 5 code required)

Taiwan's Economic Daily (member of UDN News) on 25DEC06 is reporting that China Airlines has launched the fleet renewal plan, with Boeing 747-8I likely to be in the winning league.

The airline will hold a special fleet renewal meeting in coming weeks presenting its study report. In mid-January, there will be board meeting discussing the study report.

Sources close to the airline says the airline is likely leaning to order at least 10 747-8I to replace 340-300 and its 2nd generation 747-400 (delivered between 1997-2000), which values at USD$2.5billion

China Airlines spokesperson declined to comment on the reports.

Previously due to the bitter Taiwan and US relations, forced China Airlines to postpone the 747 order in April 2006. However, US seems to be pressuring Taiwan recently, leading to the revival of the order. (China Airlines claims the postponed order was due to high fuel price which erodes its profit)

China Airlines currently flies 67 jets, average age 5.0 years. The last A300-600R will be retired and 7 A340-300s will be phased out soon, due to its age. The poor performing A340-300 leads to the dis-satisfaction and also, the order for A340 family is pretty close to its deathbed.

[Edited 2006-12-25 03:24:26]

[Edited 2006-12-25 03:25:52]

73 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineERAUgrad02 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1227 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 4 months 20 hours ago) and read 21636 times:

Wow this is awesome. good for the project. I assume this was one of the 3 serious airlines boeing was spealing with.


Desmond MacRae in ILM
User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (7 years 4 months 20 hours ago) and read 21610 times:

Merry Christmas Boeing if this pans out.
It is only 1023am local time in Taipei, so hopefully there is more news on this to come today...

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
(Chinese Big 5 code required)

Is that to translate the page? Since none of that made ANY sense to me!

Still, another Blue Chip airline for the airplane many considered to be a dinosaur.

That Boeing company sure builds some incredible, long lasting airplanes, like the B-52, by the time the last 747 leaves the skys, it could very well have had a service life of almost 100 years!



Delete this User
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 11856 posts, RR: 18
Reply 3, posted (7 years 4 months 20 hours ago) and read 21595 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Looking forward to an announcement now. Will the 10 be firm or a mixture of firm and options?

User currently offlineJimyvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 4 months 20 hours ago) and read 21571 times:

Quoting Stirling (Reply 2):
Is that to translate the page? Since none of that made ANY sense to me!

Because original article is in Chinese only :-P


User currently offlineZoom1018 From Vietnam, joined May 2005, 228 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 4 months 20 hours ago) and read 21560 times:

Quoting ERAUgrad02 (Reply 1):
Is that to translate the page?

That is to read correct Chinese traditional characters.

Oh and I love to see this happen! Love 747s!


User currently offlineCX flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6535 posts, RR: 55
Reply 6, posted (7 years 4 months 19 hours ago) and read 21483 times:

Yesterday one of their 744s visited HKG on a normal scheduled flight but wearing an US registration N168CL. Does anyone know the fate of this aircraft and why it has been reregistered? The thread says the 744s will be replaced, but not so soon surely!!!

User currently offlineAirTran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3692 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (7 years 4 months 19 hours ago) and read 21438 times:
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Merry Christmas Boeing.



filler



Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1596 posts, RR: 18
Reply 8, posted (7 years 4 months 19 hours ago) and read 21435 times:

false alarm here... well, according to this source:

http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/afx/2006/12/24/afx3281204.html



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offline747400sp From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3301 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (7 years 4 months 19 hours ago) and read 21410 times:

YES! The last of the Pan Am land super clippers will live longer. For any body that do not understand what I said. The Boeing 747 was the last giant Boeing land airliner built for Pan Am needs. It follow the Boeing 307, 377 and 707 in this tradition. It is good to see such an airliner stay around longer.

User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 10, posted (7 years 4 months 19 hours ago) and read 21392 times:

Great news for the 747-8I programme! Combined with LH's order, the Intercontinental is starting to gain some serious momentum in the market. I'm guessing the 744s that will leave CI will be the oldest they've got (I recall they have a few of the very last 744 PAX built).

Now we need BA and CX to order a few of those 747-8Is. Big grin


User currently offlineBrenintw From Taiwan, joined Jul 2006, 1569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 4 months 19 hours ago) and read 21389 times:

Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 6):
Yesterday one of their 744s visited HKG on a normal scheduled flight but wearing an US registration N168CL

Might be going back to the lessor? The registration belongs to Wells Fargo.

EDIT: or entering the CI fleet -- the certificate is valid until mid-January according to the FAA registry.

[Edited 2006-12-25 04:01:06]


I'm tired of the A vs. B sniping. Neither make planes that shed wings randomly!
User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4497 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (7 years 4 months 19 hours ago) and read 21330 times:
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makes no sense to order only 10 747-8s to replace 6 A343s and up to 11 744s.

there will be no political pressure on CI from the ROC government to order Boeings, not when Boeing are in deep dodo with the present administration in Taipei for
1. insulting the Taiwanese VP by Boeing cancelling a visit to Everett by the VP at the last minute under pressure from Beijing
2. Boeing IDSs refusal to discuss industrial offsets for the Apache Longbow till ordered to do so by the Pentagon (again to keep Beijing happy) when Bell and Sikorsky are tripping over themselves to send work to Taiwan

I do feel they will eventually order 747-8s to replace the Pratt powered 744s but only because it really is the best solution for them. 747-8Fs in a few more years may also make sense to replace their 21 744Fs. I think the A343 replacement is a different program altogether.

UDN are not very reliable


User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4497 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (7 years 4 months 18 hours ago) and read 21163 times:
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Quoting Brenintw (Reply 12):
Might be going back to the lessor? The registration belongs to Wells Fargo.

EDIT: or entering the CI fleet -- the certificate is valid until mid-January according to the FAA registry.

hmmm, interesting, it was registered by FAA only 4 days ago. its c/n 29906 which entered service in 99 with CI. maybe they are doing a selling and leaseback deal. they haven't done that for a few years


User currently offlineJimyvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 4 months 18 hours ago) and read 21153 times:

Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 6):
Yesterday one of their 744s visited HKG on a normal scheduled flight but wearing an US registration N168CL. Does anyone know the fate of this aircraft and why it has been reregistered?

This is for maintainance purposes because for some unspecified reason when encoutering with FAA.

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 8):
false alarm here... well, according to this source:

Of course, China Airlines says there's no timetable, like any other airlines.


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8092 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 months 18 hours ago) and read 21078 times:
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China Air needs the planes and Boeig needs the order. Every body gets something they want. Though not the first Asian airline I would seek an endorsement of for the 748, China Airlines is Asian launch custimers for the type.

User currently offlineNorthstarBoy From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1812 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 4 months 14 hours ago) and read 20462 times:
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all i can say is good riddance to those CI A340s, it was, without a doubt the most physically uncomfortable airplane i've ever flown on. maybe in the meantime, while they wait for their 748s, they can spend some money on things like changing the coach seats on their current A340s to something that's um Comfortable!


Why are people so against low yields?! If lower yields means more people can travel abroad, i'm all for it
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 4 months 14 hours ago) and read 20412 times:

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 22):
while they wait for their 748s, they can spend some money on things like changing the coach seats on their current A340s to something that's um Comfortable!

Are´t A340 sets significant wider then 747-8i economy seats and isn´t 2-4-2 significantly more comfortable then 3-4-3?

Apart from that A340 provide one of the most silent smooth rides in the industrie.

Has CI done something strange with their A340s ?


User currently offlineBluewhale18210 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 237 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 4 months 12 hours ago) and read 20040 times:

Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 6):
wearing an US registration N168CL.

N168CL-Previously B-18209
Registration was changed on 20DEC06, due to a need of an in-house U.S. registered aircraft to help the CI Maintenance keeping their FAA repair station certificate. Otherwise the aircraft remains owned by CI.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 22):
they can spend some money on things like changing the coach seats on their current A340s to something that's um Comfortable!

All the A340s in CI (except for B-18851) had gone cabin refit already. They all had 2-class service and PTV for everyone. I'm sure they are as comfortable as they come in cattle class.


If I had something concrete I will bring your attention. In the meantime I'll poke around some high-level managers to see if they heard anything. Since CI was obsessed NOT to complicate their fleet simplicity, 748i would be the only choice in replacing long-haul aircraft. The question would then be what they would do with the capacity gap between an A340 and a 744/748i?



JPS on A300-600RF A319/320 B737-400/800 B757-200F B767-300F CRJ-200/900. Looking to add more.
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 19, posted (7 years 4 months 12 hours ago) and read 19884 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 23):
Are´t A340 sets significant wider then 747-8i economy seats

No.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 23):
isn´t 2-4-2 significantly more comfortable then 3-4-3?

Yes.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 23):
Apart from that A340 provide one of the most silent smooth rides in the industrie.

No and no. The A340 is relatively quiet, but it is not silent. The B777 and B747 are both smoother through turbulence.


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 20, posted (7 years 4 months 12 hours ago) and read 20459 times:

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 22):
all i can say is good riddance to those CI A340s, it was, without a doubt the most physically uncomfortable airplane i've ever flown on.

The about 15 colleagues of mine that have used CI within the past 12 months all beg to differ - each and every one, separately, commented on how comfortable those A340s were.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 25):
No and no. The A340 is relatively quiet, but it is not silent.

Silent? True, that it is not. However, it does remain significantly less noisy than the B777 or B747 or A330.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 25):
The B777 and B747 are both smoother through turbulence.

Based on my personal experience, I beg to differ.



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 4 months 12 hours ago) and read 20441 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 25):

pls clarify, assuming 8 abreast on a340 (5,28m), 10 abreast on 747 (6,1m) and same width aisles (min 46 cm), the apples to apples avialable width per seat on the a340 comes out higher..


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12065 posts, RR: 52
Reply 22, posted (7 years 4 months 11 hours ago) and read 20278 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 23):
Apart from that A340 provide one of the most silent smooth rides in the industrie.

That's only because when you spend that much time on the runway (A-340-300), you have solid ground below you, and the hairdryer engines don't make much noise at full thrust (both pounds).

On a hot summer day (100 degrees +, F, at DFW) the daily LH A-340-300 uses 11,000'+ of our 13,400' long runways. It seems like they will drive all the way to FRA.


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 23, posted (7 years 4 months 11 hours ago) and read 20255 times:

Quoting Leskova (Reply 27):
it does remain significantly less noisy than the B777 or B747 or A330.

Yes, I wrote that the A340 is relatively quiet.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 27):
Based on my personal experience, I beg to differ.

What sort of weather you encountered is not relevant to how smooth an aircraft is through turbulence. The B747 is smoother through turbulence simply by virtue of having more mass. The B777 is smoother (in the vertical component only) by means of a clever feature of the autopilot system. The A350 and B787 will be yet even smoother by using a more advanced system (that will work also in the horizontal component).

Quoting Keesje (Reply 28):
pls clarify, assuming 8 abreast on a340 (5,28m), 10 abreast on 747 (6,1m) and same width aisles (min 46 cm), the apples to apples avialable width per seat on the a340 comes out higher..

Standard seat width on a B747 is 17.2" and on an A340 17.5". You asked whether the difference is significant. It's not, in the sense that the difference in seat width between the A320 and the B737 is significant. If you want to argue that the A340 is more comfortable in Y than the B747, stick with the fewer middle seats argument.


User currently offlineCobra27 From Slovenia, joined May 2001, 1003 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 4 months 11 hours ago) and read 20095 times:

Boeing just can't stop getting widebody orders. Last year more than 400, this year more than 300.

25 Zvezda : As the backlogs grow in time, it becomes more and more difficult to secure new orders. Boeing will have difficulty selling more than about 250 widebo
26 Dutchjet : Let avoid the politics (again)..... China Airlines has always been one of the airlines that was considered to be a prime candidate to launch or order
27 EI321 : I dont get this. A340 has 18inch wide economy seats and the A340 has one of, if not THE the quietest cabin currently in service, and 2-4-2 layout. Th
28 Post contains images Revelation : Outside of this making you personally uncomfortable, it's not a problem till it starts taking more than 13,400'. You do realize there are many variab
29 JAL : Interesting turn of events! Looks like another win for the 747!
30 777FlyGuy : Why do people always blame the airplane? Airlines configure them to their own specs (type of seats, width, pitch, etc). It's not the manufacturer's f
31 Trex8 : I have not seen any credible reports that CI are not happy with their A343s except that they can't do JFK-TPE with full load year round. As for their
32 Trex8 : how does AF get a seat 1 in larger than everyone else?? do they have narrower aisles or is this just a function of differences in where you are measur
33 CX flyboy : Thats very interesting. So it will not be registered like this for long then. Does anyone know of other airlines which have to go through this proced
34 Trex8 : wouldn't they need to maintain a N registered plane at all times for this FAA certificate? is this requirement true for other certifying authorities
35 Warreng24 : Most of the China 744 fleet is PW powered, and chance that UA could pick up some of those birds for added capacity?
36 Stitch : If they offer them cheap enough via lease, could be...
37 UAL747-600 : How about a combination 747-8 and 787-9/787-10 to replace 747-8 and A343-300?
38 Glideslope : Good question. IMO, once the UA/CO deal is done there will be a large 748 offer form them.
39 Jimyvr : An inferior aircraft will always be inferior no matter how you use it right. Well, the airline said it. If it's only one report we can shrug it off.
40 PlaneHunter : Keejse talked about comfort and not fuel efficiency. What - that it's "not comfortable enough"? PH
41 CX747 : As always, I will wait till the 747-8I is rolling down the active painted in CI colors for its first revenue flight. With that being said, congrats on
42 Jimyvr : The airline in the article says the technical-wise is not up to their expectation, also inferior aircraft in the days of high fuel price. The other p
43 PlaneHunter : Both users you quoted in post 62 talked about comfort, while you replied with a reference to technical issues. PH
44 Post contains images 11Bravo : Conversly, if it were an efficient aircraft, which it clearly is not by current standards, Airbus could still sell them beyond the small handful of o
45 Post contains images PlaneHunter : The A343 is outperformed by the competition - but that still doesn't make it "inefficient" - otherwise it would be parked in significant numbers in t
46 Trex8 : someone somewhere must have data for eg AF A343 and 772ER flights and how fuel burn compares on similar routes.
47 NorthstarBoy : Trex8 described it perfectly in another post, it was like the seat was made of wood, or preformed cardboard, with no cushion, hence my description of
48 SailorOrion : And that relates to the aircraft itself how? Ok LH has rather hard seats, and I like it. Nothing annoys me more than a soft seat (be it in a car, a tr
49 Zvezda : Airbus don't make the seats. A variety of manufacturers do. It is up to each airline to select the seats. Whichever seats you didn't like are probabl
50 Post contains images RJ111 : It's funny observing how much the A340 offends some people. Clearly a sign of affection. Merry Christmas.
51 Trex8 : LH 2000 financial reports 744 is 4.3liters per passenger per 100km A343 is 4.0
52 CX flyboy : So this FAA thing is a new capability for China Airlines I assume?
53 Trex8 : if its FAA certification for mx, they have had that for years , unless this is some new rule or they lost it and just got it back. LH group 2005 flee
54 KC135TopBoom : ????? I assume you mean a combination of B-747-800Is and B-787-900/-1000s to replace B-747-400s and A-340-300s?
55 Post contains images FlyingHippo : I think it's time to put in my two cents... I've flown with CI's 343 a few times, in both J and Y class, and I have to say it is one of the nicest rid
56 Trex8 : these ranges are not real, if they were they would have flown the A343 JFK-TPE non stop all the time. A realistic max range for a A332 is only 5000nm
57 ERAUgrad02 : So is there really going to be an announcement or will this end up being a rumor thread?
58 Jimyvr : As early as January or February, there should be a formal announcement, unless there's more twist.
59 Post contains images Ikramerica : Depends entirely on the airline. Before Sabena went away, I flew their 340 and 747 on the same trip. The 340 was one of the worst flights I've ever b
60 PanAmOldDC8 : Finally someone who agrees with me. I have been blasted from here to kingdom come over my dislike of the A340, but I will always maintain it is one o
61 Zvezda : Most of what determines the comfort of an airliner is the airline's configuration choices. Very little about comfort (especially with widebodies) is
62 Jimyvr : No. The next RFP will be most likely to cover 330 or additional long-haul expansion. 343 will be replaced by 333 and 748.
63 Stitch : In a 3-3-3 config (ABC DEF GHI) you have a 66% chance of not sitting next to someone since they can fill the A, C, D, F, G and I seats first, leaving
64 A342 : Does CI operate their A343s at 275 tonne MTOW ?
65 Post contains images BoomBoom : So you use a Ouija board?
66 Trex8 : so they will put a 747 on the SEA/IAH route where they are already not doing well on the IAH segment??? Will the Germans or the Italians let them run
67 Jimyvr : FRA wouldn't be the problem if they go back to one-stop and eventually 333. FCO used to get 3 weekly 744 so wouldn't be surprised if this comes back
68 FlyingHippo : If they retire 343s, they'll be forced to use 744s on TPE-SEA-IAH route since they don't have any planes in their fleet that could reach SEA economica
69 A342 : Why shouldn't they ? The airport would be happy about the higher landing fees !
70 Trex8 : air service agreements between countries which are not "open sky" ones often have limits to the number of seats allowed and/or number of flights. the
71 Post contains images Blackbird1331 : My guess is that only 10 were ordered because they are waiting for the A380 to wring out its problems. Comfort on the A340? Do you think the decision
72 Viscount724 : Nobody has yet mentioned that the 747 (all models) is significantly faster than the 340 (and 330), as is the 777 which is slightly slower than the 747
73 Ikramerica : It also could mean that a 744 can do 2 roundtrips across china a day, while the 340 might not be able to. Even on a 5 hour run, the 744 can do it in
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