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A350: Will It Get 'chevron' Shape Engine Nacelles?  
User currently offlineBoeing777/747 From Belgium, joined Dec 2001, 643 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 14573 times:

The Boeing 787 Dreamliner design shows engines with chevron shape nacelles. Will the Airbus A350 get such same engine nacelles (their design doesn't show it)?



28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 14549 times:

It depends - as I found out in a Tech/Ops thread (which completely and utterly proved a belief of mine wrong!), the chevrons are for noise reduction purposes so I guess it all depends on how loud the engines are. Since RR are producing a new engine just for the A350 (currently, it remains to be seen if it will appear on other aircraft), noise reduction may be something the new engines can do on their own. The chevrons actaully increase drag somewhat, so if the actual engine can be made quieter to the point where they arent needed then its a positive for performance as well.

The massive A380 engines are LHR QC2 compliant so it all depends on exactly how quiet the A350 engines have to be!

As I said, it all depends  Wink


User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 28
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 14543 times:

The 748 will also get these.

I also noted that the A350 does not illustrate it. Isn't the A350 supposed to share the same engines with the 787?

Good observation Boeing777/747...



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User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 14472 times:

Quoting DIA (Reply 2):
I also noted that the A350 does not illustrate it. Isn't the A350 supposed to share the same engines with the 787?

No, the old pre-XWB iteration did but the XWB version has RR producing a Trent model specifically for it. GE may offer the same GEnx but that isnt firm yet.


User currently offlineNorCal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2459 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 14433 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 3):
No, the old pre-XWB iteration did but the XWB version has RR producing a Trent model specifically for it.

I thought it was a derivative engine not a whole new engine


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30537 posts, RR: 84
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 14401 times:
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Quoting NorCal (Reply 4):
I thought it was a derivative engine not a whole new engine...

I imagine it's based on the original Trent 1000 A350 powerplant with improvements in the core and larger fan diameters and such to provide the extra thrust needed (especially for the A350x-1000/A350-900R/A350-900F).

[Edited 2006-12-27 18:01:33]

User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3476 posts, RR: 67
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 14374 times:

Quoting Boeing777/747 (Thread starter):
The Boeing 787 Dreamliner design shows engines with chevron shape nacelles. Will the Airbus A350 get such same engine nacelles (their design doesn't show it)?

I believe the chevron design is subject to a Boeing patent that would require Boeing approval for Airbus to use.



Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 14365 times:

Quoting NorCal (Reply 4):

I thought it was a derivative engine not a whole new engine

All engines are derivative engines, there hasnt been a 'whole new engine' in 20 odd years (I think I had this discussion with someone in another thread a week or so ago).

The Trent 1000 is an RB211 lineage, the GeNX is derived from the GE90 etc etc. Sure, the newer models arent anything like the original models, but neither manufacturer went back to the drawing board with a blank sheet of paper for either engine - they took what they had and improved it.

Pratt was going to offer a cleansheet design for the 787, but was dropped.

Rolls Royce are offering a new Trent iteration for the XWB, not the Trent 1000 adaption that they were offering for the original A350 design.


User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1596 posts, RR: 18
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 14365 times:

Those chevrons also decreased the amount of insulation used and thus increased interior width and decreased weight.

I believe it was inspired by GE/NASA/Boeing technology.... I am sure Airbus can use the same technology as long its available for use by other manufacters...



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineOwlEye From Netherlands, joined Feb 2006, 957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 14338 times:

For the 1st quarter wall paper calendar we have illustrated the A350 with 'chevronized' engine cowlings, to find here:

http://www.liladesign.com/liladesign...%20Lila%20Design/myliladesign.html



User currently offlineRheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1968 posts, RR: 52
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 14269 times:

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 8):
I believe it was inspired by GE/NASA/Boeing technology.... I am sure Airbus can use the same technology as long its available for use by other manufacters...

Otherwise chevron nozzles will be subject to WTO ruling on 'unfair' subsidies creating a competitive advantage (which is plain stupid, because that's exactly what research money should be spent for)


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 960 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 14257 times:

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 10):

Otherwise chevron nozzles will be subject to WTO ruling on 'unfair' subsidies creating a competitive advantage (which is plain stupid, because that's exactly what research money should be spent for)

NASA funded research enters the public domain once the results are published. It's not for "American Eyes Only."  Wink


User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1596 posts, RR: 18
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 14246 times:

NASA technology that has a non military use is for public knowledge. GE and/or Boeing could have a patent though.


Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineHimself From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 62 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 14216 times:

Quoting OwlEye (Reply 9):
For the 1st quarter wall paper calendar we have illustrated the A350 with 'chevronized' engine cowlings, to find here:

The .PDF image below that shows the A350 with straight-edged cowlings.

http://www.liladesign.com/downloads/LilaDesignSIAA350.pdf


User currently offlineRheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1968 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 14152 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 11):
NASA funded research enters the public domain once the results are published.

in many cases that seems to happen, yes. But what about, for example, the NASA/Boeing "21st Century Wing" research program which seems to be quite elusive whenever one tries to dig up respective report papers?

http://www.alphastarcorp.com/right/research.html
NASA/LaRC, and Boeing Jet Cruiser - 21st Century Wing
Key Accomplishments: Predicted reliability increase by a factor of 100. Reduced the weight by changing internal structure (i.e spar, height, width, skin thickness).


http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...7/134122/Cutting+to+the+bone+.html
...[NASA's] Aerospace Vehicle Systems Technology (AVST) base research programme, which includes such projects as the 21st century wing, revolutionary airframe concepts and inherently reliable systems.

Any hint on further information on "21st Century Wing" research would be greatly appreciated  

But back to topic: Fitting chevrons to fan and maybe core nozzles as well is one thing, but having the knowledge to design them is another. QTD yielded the know-how to tailor chevron setup and geometry to measured interior noise in three dimensions, leading to non-uniform dispersal and shaping of chevrons. This reportedly also reduces cruise drag to an extent that a need for more complex variable geometry chevrons may be obviated.

[Edited 2006-12-27 18:43:41]

[Edited 2006-12-27 18:44:19]

User currently offlineGaut From Belgium, joined Dec 2001, 344 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 14061 times:

Hello Guys,

The chevrons are not that new, it is used on the GE's CF34 nozzles (see pictures). However in the B787 case, the chevrons are on the cowls so it's maybe patented by the nacelle manufacturer (Goodrich)...



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Photo © Alex G.-Denicourt - Contrails Aviation Photography




«Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae.»
User currently offlineOwlEye From Netherlands, joined Feb 2006, 957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 13912 times:

Quoting Himself (Reply 13):
The .PDF image below that shows the A350 with straight-edged cowlings.

Fixed!


User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4681 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 13820 times:
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Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 6):
I believe the chevron design is subject to a Boeing patent that would require Boeing approval for Airbus to use.

IIRC I read somewhere that Airbus considered it on the original A350 but chevrons actually increase fuel comsumption so they dropped the idea but it seemed it was available to them.


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 960 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 13767 times:

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 17):
IIRC I read somewhere that Airbus considered it on the original A350 but chevrons actually increase fuel comsumption so they dropped the idea but it seemed it was available to them.

Yes, cheverons typically result in a minor increase in fuel consumption.

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 14):
Any hint on further information on "21st Century Wing" research would be greatly appreciated

ASAIK, those were both conceptual studies that went no where. NASA and a co-operative effort between Boeing and LM did some work on a potential SST in the late-90s, but the only means to reduce noise and air pollution were wildly impractical. I suspect there is very little information available because the project didn't go very far.

In terms of real world projects, keep in mind that the super critical airfoil (which Airbus used extensively) was pioneered at NASA's Langley Research Center. Fly-by-wire and other digital instrumentation that both Airbus and Boeing utilize were also NASA innovations.


User currently offlineBeech19 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 936 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13641 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 3):
GE may offer the same GEnx but that isnt firm yet.

Tell that to GE.
http://www.geae.com/engines/commercial/genx/index.html
They list is being used one the 787, 747-8 and A350.

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 6):
I believe the chevron design is subject to a Boeing patent that would require Boeing approval for Airbus to use.

I'd be surprised if Boeing, GE or Goodrich didn't have one.



KPAE via KBVY
User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4681 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13632 times:
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Quoting Beech19 (Reply 19):
Tell that to GE.
http://www.geae.com/engines/commercial/genx/index.html
They list is being used one the 787, 747-8 and A350.

I believe the website is referring to the old A350 of which GE was the launch engine. But on the XWB A350, RR is the first , and so far only firmly committed engine.


User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13594 times:

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 19):
Tell that to GE.
http://www.geae.com/engines/commercial/genx/index.html
They list is being used one the 787, 747-8 and A350.

Thats the old A350, pre XWB.

Quoting from Flight Global:

R-R remains the only manufacturer to have signed up to be on the A350. Airbus is adamant that it is close to finalising a deal with General Electric to put the GEnx on board the A350, but whatever happens, R-R will be the lead engine supplier for service entry

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...s+an+in-depth+look+at+the+new.html

Quoting from Flight Global:

The previous version of the A350 was to have been powered by the General Electric GEnx turbofan and the proposed Rolls-Royce Trent 1700.

Airbus has yet to secure a commitment from a second engine supplier for the A350 XWB. The new aircraft is expected to enter service in 2013.

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...pment-of-trent-xwb-powerplant.html


User currently offlineBeech19 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 936 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13565 times:

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 20):
I believe the website is referring to the old A350 of which GE was the launch engine. But on the XWB A350, RR is the first , and so far only firmly committed engine.



Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 21):
Thats the old A350, pre XWB.

Maybe i should have made my slightly sarcastic post more obvious... i know its talking about the previous model. I mean't literally "Someone should tell GE that." so they can fix their site.  

I have a nicely worded email out to the appropriate people at GEAE inquiring if the GEnx has been signed on by Airbus for the A350XWB or if this is in error.  Smile

[Edited 2006-12-27 21:45:46]


KPAE via KBVY
User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4681 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13535 times:
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Quoting Beech19 (Reply 22):
I mean't literally "Someone should tell GE that." so they can fix their site.  

can you tell them while you are at it to check their specs table, the A4 version of their CF680E1 has a different fan diameter to all the others. There are probably other errors too!  Smile


User currently offlineBeech19 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 936 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13511 times:

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 23):
the A4 version of their CF680E1 has a different fan diameter to all the others. There are probably other errors too!

Well i don't know about the specific A4 version but the CF680E1 does have a 8" larger diameter fan than the other CF6-80C2 and others.
Similar to the way that the GEnX used on the 787 has a 111" diameter fan and the GEnX used on the 747-8 has a 105" diameter fan. Same motor basically though.



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25 Zvezda : Correct. They work by causing sound pressure waves to cancel each other. I thought the latter had a 104" fan diameter. No?
26 Post contains links Beech19 : The GE CF6-50 (Airbus A300B, DC-10-15/-30 Boeing 747-200/300, KC-10, E-4) and the CF6-80A (Airbus A310-200, Boeing 767-200) had 105" diameter. The CF
27 Post contains images Glideslope : GE will never offer a GE90 derivative on the 350. Period.
28 Beech19 : Um... hate to disspoint ya. The GEnX was already on board for the previous A350. Granted the GE90 will never show up on the A350, the 3.5ft smaller d
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