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Virgin America Denied  
User currently offlinePgtravel From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 446 posts, RR: 2
Posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 20553 times:

It's official. The DOT has issued its order (pdf) saying that Virgin America is foreign controlled and won't be allowed to fly.

Check out the appendices in the back of the order where they have diagrams of the ownership structure. (I also included a copy of the first diagram in my blog if you'd rather not open a PDF.) That is one heck of a confusing structure that was probably just begging to be shot down.

They also say that the license agreement to use the Virgin America name is too restricting on the business so that it gives Branson some measure of control that he can't have.

232 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJetBluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2971 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 20538 times:

LOL.  Smile

JetBluefan1



Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
User currently offlineJetBlueAUS From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1145 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 20536 times:

In all honestly, we don't need another air carrier in the United States. I back the DOT's decision 100%.


Not all of us can be heroes, some of us can only stand on the sidewalk and clap as they go by.
User currently offlineJetBluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2971 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 20500 times:

Being serious now, what's going to happen to the planes that they've already received and the people they hired?

JetBluefan1



Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
User currently offlineEagle11 From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 170 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 20503 times:

This is very interesting.

Surely it's time for the lawyers to get involved now...



"The Eagle has landed"
User currently offlineDL4EVR From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 641 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 20447 times:

And justice prevails  Smile


We Love To Fly And It Shows.
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 20449 times:

Well hate to say I told you so, though I told you so.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineEatmybologna From France, joined Apr 2005, 412 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 20405 times:

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 2):
In all honestly, we don't need another air carrier in the United States. I back the DOT's decision 100%.

I for one, believe that in no way should fair competition be supressed.

Regards,

E-M-B



Isn't knowledge more than just the acquisition of information? Shouldn't the acquired information be correct?
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2691 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 20369 times:

Quoting Pgtravel (Thread starter):
Check out the appendices in the back of the order where they have diagrams of the ownership structure.

Holy confusing...

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 2):
In all honestly, we don't need another air carrier in the United States.

I totally agree.

I doubt that Virgin America will give up with this ruling. I would bet that they would change their structure of ownership to comply...

What is the bottom number of how much of the company is owned by US Citizens?

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 7):
I for one, believe that in no way should fair competition be supressed.

I agree as long as they follow the laws...they didn't...

[Edited 2006-12-27 20:38:47]

User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4085 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 20331 times:

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 2):
In all honestly, we don't need another air carrier in the United States. I back the DOT's decision 100%.

Well, while we're being honest, we don't need all the ones that DO have licenses either.

I wasn't on either side of this Virgin America thing, but it's kinda funny hearing all the 'woo-hoo's' from people who work at some of the carriers that would be better off deceased or otherwise swallowed up.

Chris in NH


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 20289 times:

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 2):
In all honestly, we don't need another air carrier in the United States. I back the DOT's decision 100%.

Maybe we should have said that about B6 back in 1999/2000.....its a free country.... sarcastic 



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineJayDub From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 20208 times:

Ahhh, The US of A, the land of opportunity... white 

User currently offlineJetBlueAUS From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1145 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 20205 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 10):
Maybe we should have said that about B6 back in 1999/2000.....its a free country....

And yet this is a Virgin America thread. Its amazing how JetBlue works its way into every discussion.  duck   stirthepot 



Not all of us can be heroes, some of us can only stand on the sidewalk and clap as they go by.
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 961 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 20205 times:

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 2):
In all honestly, we don't need another air carrier in the United States. I back the DOT's decision 100%.

Says the new kid on the block?  eyebrow 

The DOT is not making a statement regarding airline (over)competition but about ownership regulations that Virgin America needs to prove they comply with.

If Virgin America can show they are in compliance with federal cabatoge rules, they are fully entitled to fly domestic passengers.


User currently offlineMikey711MN From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1397 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 20154 times:

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 3):
Being serious now, what's going to happen to the planes that they've already received and the people they hired?

Very good question. But surely they knew this was coming...



I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
User currently offlineKPWMSpotter From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 432 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 20158 times:

What can Virgin America do now?

I really doubt that they are going to just give up on their planes and investments they've made so far. Can they appeal the decision, or will they have to re-organize their staffing structure and give it another go at applying?

Even if the market and the business community has shown that it is not supportive of a new airline, I don't see Branson as one to just give up...



I reject your reality and substitute my own...
User currently offlineJetBlueAUS From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1145 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 20157 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 13):
The DOT is not making a statement regarding airline (over)competition but about ownership regulations that Virgin America needs to prove they comply with.

Let me rephrase: I back the DOT's decision 100% regarding foreign control. However, I am expressing my own opinion when it comes to another receiving the OK for them to start operating in the United States



Not all of us can be heroes, some of us can only stand on the sidewalk and clap as they go by.
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 961 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 20079 times:

Quoting KPWMSpotter (Reply 15):
What can Virgin America do now?

They can reorganize their investment capital such that controlling interest are within federal cabatoge regulations. After which point, they can make a reapplication.

This is hardly the "end" of Virgin America, but it does not help them one bit. It will likely delay the start of revenue service by several months.


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 38
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 20052 times:

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 12):

And yet this is a Virgin America thread. Its amazing how JetBlue works its way into every discussion.

And the second you jumped into the thread you guaranteed that would be the case given your user name.  Wink



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 850 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 20029 times:

We don´t have american LCC (?) flying in Europe, so I guess it´s fair, let´s see what LRB will do next...intresting!

Just my   

Micke// 

[Edited 2006-12-27 21:00:02]


Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineFA4B6 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 20025 times:

Here are the news stories:

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&ie=UTF-8&q=virgin+america

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...601103&sid=agpl_rf9il98&refer=news


User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 19991 times:

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 7):
for one, believe that in no way should fair competition be supressed

If 9-11 would not have happened, the airlines would be prosperous and VA
would be allowed. Note all the upstarts since de-reg. Most, of course, are gone but there has been quite a few to take to the skys since 1978.
All the carriers have been into hard times least WN. I see now that AA is going to take a loss in the fourth Q of 2006, so this no to VA thing is not a surprise.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineGh123 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 19961 times:

Its proof of the fact that it is time for the US to get a grip of itself and get with the program. Open skies are the future and the sooner this is recognised the better.

US airlines need some serious competition and motivation (domestically) if they don't then they will continue to deteriorate as they are.


User currently offlineDL4EVR From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 641 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 19902 times:

Quoting Gh123 (Reply 22):
Its proof of the fact that it is time for the US to get a grip of itself and get with the program. Open skies are the future and the sooner this is recognised the better.

US airlines need some serious competition and motivation (domestically) if they don't then they will continue to deteriorate as they are.

...says the Brit.



We Love To Fly And It Shows.
User currently offlineMrocktor From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1668 posts, RR: 50
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 19885 times:

Message clear: don't invest your filthy foreign money in this country!

So much for free enterprise.


25 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...and some are expressing their own opinion about your comments and about B6...
26 ORDagent : The U.S. domestic market is extremely competitive already. We have so many LCCs already and many of them compete on on board product already such as
27 OH-LGA : As long as you make it clear that the two are separate, as you just did. Otherwise you're putting words in a government authority's mouth - which is
28 Scbriml : However, unless I'm mistaken, there is absolutely nothing to stop Joe Schmoe from starting an airline in Europe and maintaining complete control of i
29 DeltaGuy : No, more available seats are just going to saturate an already competitive market and further screw things up. Good job DOJ- screw you Fred Reid. Del
30 BoeingBus : deteriorate? what was so revolutionary with Virgin America? Look, you may not agree with the law, but the law is the law. Virgin should have known be
31 VonRichtofen : Anybody else find it funny that the B6 kool-aid drinkers who always accuse the majors of being afraid of competition are now saying "Good for the DOT,
32 UAL747-600 : What does airline ownership have to do with open skies? The Europeans have added airline ownership to the open skies equation, where it wasn't ever a
33 Post contains images ENU :
34 Post contains images JetBluefan1 : I find it funny that B6 was started before the dot com bust and 9/11 - where more capacity was needed and profits were at an all-time high. And B6 is
35 Halls120 : Can a US company own an airline that operates within Europe? If so, our laws ought to be changed to permit foreign ownership of a US-based airline. W
36 Joelfreak : As I have said before, anyone who thinks VA was not prepared for this, and wont have either a lawsuit or a new ownership organization within a week is
37 Sllevin : I don't believe that's true at all. I believe that certain US airlines had certain rights grandfathered in (some as a result of the second World War)
38 Ken777 : I think that RB is smart enough to understand that his preferred option wouldn't fly. Option 2 is probably ready to go, maybe even Options 3, 4 & 5.
39 Post contains links Concorde001 : Quoting DL4EVR (Reply 23): ...says the Brit. With the exception of Bermuda II, Britain has embraced globalisation and free global trade more so than a
40 OA260 : Exactly what I was thinking. They want all the freedoms when they are in Europe but when Europeans want to enterprise in USA its closed doors!!! Bran
41 JetBlueGuy2006 : If they do (which I suspect) do they only have to make a reapplication to the DOT, or do they have to make a reapplication to the DOT and FAA?
42 CentPIT : Maybe those laws should be changed to match the DOT's laws for aviation?
43 Incitatus : No, most European airlines do NOT want access to the US domestic market. Ownership rules is just a distraction thrown on the table by British negotia
44 USADreamliner : Ha,ha,ha! Oh,men, finally somebody with some common sense. 100% with you. Well, you know, in this country the foreigner is always the bad boy. Xenoph
45 Post contains images Solnabo : There´s no way an american carrier could survive in Europe, almost every country have their own LCC Micke//  [Edited 2006-12-27 21:56:18]
46 Post contains images Gary2880 : What? you don't like us sticking our noses in your affairs? What a stupid inane law to have. Whats the point?
47 FlyKev : As much as I saw this coming, I don't think this is the last you will bwe hearing of Virgin America. They will fly with passengers eventually. Kev.
48 Atmx2000 : Exactly what freedoms do US airlines want in Europe?
49 BHXFAOTIPYYC : As I've said before on VA threads, the arguments that were originally put to the DOT by CO (and others possibly) worked on this occasion. That means f
50 Concorde001 : I don't agree. Yes there are benefits of maintaining Bermuda II, but in the long term? You need to understand BA's long term strategy AND the changes
51 FA4B6 : Exactly. To me, its like a car company. I prefer imports over American cars. If America produced what I felt was a superior car, Id be inclined to co
52 Post contains images Abrelosojos : This is a really sad day for competition. U.S. consumer have lost. However, I find it funny that Europeans are defending the right to competition. Hop
53 Bobnwa : Chris, Please give a list of the people who are saying" woo-hoo" and the carriers they work for, that would be better off swallowed. I know certain p
54 Fewsolarge : Score 1 for entrenched unions and stockholders of carriers in protected markets, and 0 for the consumer. We need a law specifically forbidding protect
55 JetBlueNYFL : First, jetBlue is a "major" due to generating revenues of $1 billion and over annually, as defined by the DOT. JetBlue was the fastest startup in his
56 USAirPlatinum : Virgin America should be allowed to fly and the idiotic foreign ownership laws should be scrapped. Why should American travellers be forced to pay muc
57 USAirPlatinum : JetBlue also operates an all-European fleet. The same idiotic nationalism that the JeeBees are using to slam Virgin America was used by TWA, Delta an
58 Monteycarlos : From what I understand thats not the problem at all. With respect, Virgin America was denied purely on ownership grounds, and not due to the capacity
59 Jfk777 : It is very sad for Anglo-American relations to live with Bermuda II. Its a relic of Jimmy Carter's presidency for Delta to fly to LGW from Atlanta in
60 JetBlueNYFL : I LOVE how every thread mentions jetBlue in one way or another Actually, jetBlue's fleet comes from Brazil AND France. Just because jetBlue does not f
61 Post contains images USAirPlatinum : Oh c'mon. The JetBlue fan contingent is clearly cheering this decision, and with names like "JetBlueForever," you're bound to get some mention of Jet
62 Byronsterk : Wich country was it, that always encouraged a completely free economy? Or are there certain exceptions to that rule...
63 VEEREF : So the British government or EU would have no problem with me starting up my own airline over there? Somehow I don't believe that for a second. A tru
64 Luv2fly : Really so why is BA and LHR so FIERCELY protected. Hello pot this is the kettle here, your black!
65 JetBluefan1 : This is a free enterprise economy. But a free enterprise economy doesn't mean that there aren't ANY laws concerning competition. The company has to be
66 Freedom747 : That's the RISK somebody takes with a start-up
67 USAirPlatinum : The assumption that folks posting from abroad are "non-American" is pretty dumb. For instance, I am a US citizen living abroad in the UK, and I agree
68 JetBlueNYFL : So, with names like "USAIRWAYSRULES" you're bound to get some mention of US Airways? It doesn't seem that way. It only seems that the hostility here
69 Galapagapop : I will say to back up his statement, is that at STARTUP B6 was all Airbus, and A had their hand in B6's pot either way you cut it. As for Virgin Amer
70 Ikramerica : Fair enough. It was obvious to anyone OBJECTIVE that VA was trying to skirt the law from day one. A nation that has given up their entire national id
71 Luv2fly : News flash they do fly International as well.
72 JetBluefan1 : It does not, but it should at least reduce the "unfair competition factor" that so many are having with this issue. Of course the US is a closed econ
73 USAirPlatinum : That's actually a rather protected market. Only five companies providing scheduled nonstop service between two of America's principal cities? Yep, an
74 Luv2fly : And you have a choice pay it or not. So your saying because you need cheap flights for a weekend fling one should be flying the route! OK that is rea
75 USAirPlatinum : I'm saying that I want *real* competition, because I'm an American who believes in a capitalist system of real choice and real competition -- not a s
76 Luv2fly : Where are these payments you speak of?
77 SeeTheWorld : What do you call Southwest? I pretty much agree with you, but unfortunately, the DOT was tasked with upholding the law. The only way to change the ar
78 USAirPlatinum : The government made repeated post-9/11 stabilization payments to every major carrier, and also bailed out several carriers with loans. Now it's busy d
79 USAirPlatinum : A non-entity in most of the places I fly.
80 Luv2fly : There is a difference between hand outs and loans, the loans had to be paid back and the airlines had to apply and be approved to get them UA for one
81 USAirPlatinum : There's not really much of a difference between a hand-out and a government loan. The government money was "loaned" to many carriers who clearly had
82 Luv2fly : Again if they had no ability to pay it back they did not get it, like UA did not get it. Do you get it?
83 USAirPlatinum : Are you trying to argue that US Airways circa 2004 was financially stronger than UAL at the same time?
84 Luv2fly : What I am trying to do and failing, is that airlines had to submit a plan in order to get the loans and there ability to repay them, UA failed to get
85 USAirPlatinum : You're claiming that the loans were provided based on the ability for the carrier to pay them off. US received a loan despite being in far worse finan
86 Skyexramper : The flow chart of ownership is crazy...all those Delaware corporations and cayman islands based funds. Oh well tooo bad that SkyBus will be launching
87 Luv2fly : WHATEVER!
88 JetBlueNYFL : Yes, jetBlue does fly to international destinations...after receiving the appropriate operating authority to do so. I meant that the company's office
89 USAirPlatinum : I accept your concession. I think his point was more that if jetBlue was suddenly denied access to its Caribbean markets so that Air Jamaica and othe
90 JetBluefan1 : Considering that 9/11 was an abnormal event in America, government loans seem to have been very appropriate. Would it have been better for 100,000+ p
91 Gh123 : The problem with the US is that they tend to always let emotion run before common sense. (Take the Dubai Ports deal as an example) The US needs foreig
92 Luv2fly : There is no concession I just have better things to do then to argue with the likes of you.
93 ULMFlyer : I agree with you that the law needs to be followed, period. And many countries (including Brazil, IIRC) have similar laws concerning foreign ownershi
94 Post contains images JetBlueAUS : I accept your ignorance. It seems like you'd be crying foul if US Airways stopped flying to London. The United States does not want any companies to
95 Rikkus67 : ...with the amount of Canadian companies that have been swallowed up by American interests, it is a shame that the reverse cannot be done in the US. T
96 Post contains links Luv2fly : USAirPlatinum Here is an article you might want to read! http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1006304-1,00.html
97 Post contains images Bingo : By fair competition do you mean the EU bailing out Airbus or NASA leasing the wind tunnel to Boeing? Before you all flip out, IM KIDDING!!!! Cheers M
98 Falcon84 : That's not what they're surpressing; they're supressing foreign ownership of what would be a U.S. carrier. Enough of this nations' businesses is owne
99 77411 : What? I would say the US domestic market has a ton of competition and that is one reason you have carriers in financial problems. Think about it they
100 Post contains images MIAMIx707 : Hopefully Skybus will pick up the A320s and give them some color. The ugly white scheme of Virgin America is not one I was looking forward to see
101 Post contains images Halls120 : you could make the same argument about the US automobile industry back in the 1960's. GM and Ford were certainly world economic powerhouses, they wer
102 Aither : I think the USA are communist !!! Sorry, just thinking what many would have said if this story was happening in France.
103 FlyDreamliner : The airlines in this country are at the moment, greatly improving their quality of service, and in some ways, have been the industry innovators. I've
104 Sllevin : Exactly. I'd prefer NOT to pay the broadly higher European airfares, and the broadly less consumer-friendly FF programes in Europe (BA being an excel
105 Halls120 : Hogwash. A US corporation is bound by US laws, no matter who or where its shareholders are based. So, a foreign owned VA would be subject to the Civi
106 Atmx2000 : Hey, Canadian companies have bought American companies (or subsidiaries). An example would be Onex buying what is now Spirit from Boeing. The way I w
107 ULMFlyer : After reading your thoughtful post, and agreeing with everything in it, I must say that the national security rationale (not only in the US) for bloc
108 Goomba : I for one am disappointed in this decision. Fair competition should not be oppressed in any business. I believe that Virgin America can bring somethin
109 Halls120 : The reason why the national security scenario escapes you is that there is none. Anyone want to take a look at the American flag merchant marine? If
110 Post contains images USAirPlatinum : Government loans simply propped up failed carriers and put strong, well-managed carriers like AA and CO into significant hardship as they were requir
111 USAirPlatinum : Actually, you are aware that the value of Canadian investments in the United States is considerably larger than the value of US investments in Canada
112 Flynavy : And what is Ryanair? Seems to me like that, extremely successful "European" idea was, in fact, American, and started in a place called Love Field. Ei
113 FCAFLYBOY : I know, and amazing how all the VA bashers are Jet Blue workers!! VA will come back with a vengence, I have NO doubt about that - and good 'on 'em!!
114 Post contains images USAirPlatinum : Ryanair is the sort of carrier that could do well in the USA as well. It's popular to bash RyanAir and EasyJet in Europe by people who imagine themsel
115 Glideslope : Exactly. VA will fly. They simply need to comply with the rules. We have different rules for national defence. Deal with it or go fly Coca in Bolivia
116 Luv2fly : News flash this has been going on just how long now!
117 USAirPlatinum : Oh, c'mon, Boeing is heavily subsidized too. Look at all the incentives they get from local governments to build plants and "create jobs." My employer
118 7cubed : Pepsi wants to buy Danon and half the French gov't goes off the deep end. Alcatel wants to buy Lucent and no one in the US cares. Hmmm, Lucent (bell
119 Post contains images Thomson735 : Why do you not need another carrier in the USA?? i see more airlines as a good thing, u have competition and just in general a better industry Or is i
120 Atmx2000 : Of course the incentives have been given because those local governments suddenly realized that Boeing was tired of being milked by them for decades
121 Luv2fly : Virgin Cola Virgin Sun
122 Post contains links LN-MOW : It ain't over yet - tha fat lady has yet to sing: Virgin America Statement Regarding DOT Show Cause Order BURLINGAME, CA — (December 27, 2006) — "
123 Vasu : GOOD! I know a lot of Americans are trying to "defend" their existing airlines... but seriously... The USA NEEDS competition with regards to the airl
124 DL4EVR : NEEDS competition?? As JetBlueNYFL stated earlier, VA's chief market, SFO-JFK already has 5 airlines serving it!! How is that not competition already
125 Micstatic : I agree with your statement in theory. However, how will Virgin America be able to deliver a far superior product, and not have the same pitfalls alm
126 USAirPlatinum : That's just silliness. What "interests" are served by having every airline US controlled, other than the "interests" of a couple of managers who get
127 Vasu : Hmm yes... I do understand what you're saying... Its just that I think every airline does deserve a chance. If they try to operate, and fail, then fai
128 TVNWZ : This turndown was expected. Virgin America was attempting to get the best possible ownership structure through the feds. They are/were fully aware tha
129 Post contains images VV701 : It has happened. Air Berlin was incorporated in Oregon in 1979. It was founded and owned by an ex-PA captain. Although it has always entirely operate
130 Thomson735 : Lets not get silly, now lest see if u can name the things that make virgin what they are...?? see this is what i hate sometimes about americans, i th
131 Luv2fly : Correction PA and TW did not "quit" they sold there rights for major money in return for the LHR slots!
132 Luv2fly : Now you said SRB has/had the golden touch with whatever he does, did you not.
133 Luv2fly : The USA government made available loans that the airlines had to apply for and get approved.
134 Luv2fly : And pay back the money in full with interest.
135 BoeingPride800 : they would have failed anyway. more competition is not good for the industry in this current state. legacies are already battling with making revenue
136 Atmx2000 : Are you sure this is the case? I think only agreements made after the EU formation are considered illegal. As long as UA flies to LHR from its other
137 AirframeAS : Ehhhh what?! Don't you mean WN? I agree with the DOT decision, hopefully the U.S. air carriers will finally wake-up and get with the program.[Edited
138 Thomson735 : Read it again, i didnt say exactly that no
139 Luv2fly : CLOSE real close. Also his reality tv show barely lasted one season here in the USA!
140 AirframeAS : LOL! I remember that! Saw one episode and was not amused. What was the name of the show again?
141 77411 : What part are you having a problem understanding? It has nothing to do with being scared or with anti-competitiveness it is all about following the c
142 Post contains images JetBlueGuy2006 : From all I have seen, they have done a lot to try to conform to the laws of ownership and it wasn't quite right, close, but not exact. They will defi
143 Dank : With your username and your comment, you brought that upon yourself. Your comments smell suspiciously of "it's ok to be a new carrier if you're jet b
144 MasseyBrown : VA is plainly guilty; but I wouldn't be surprised if VA had gotten a wink and a nod in the way of encouragement from some person or persons in the go
145 Sllevin : Air Berlin when US-owned operated from Berlin -- again, that was part of a result of World War II which did not allow German airlines to serve Berlin
146 Post contains links VV701 : I see what you are saying. But what I failed to express properly is that the resrictive nature of Bermuda 2 would make any similar agreement signed t
147 Ghost77 : What a shame! Bring Virgin Mexico and start flying Mexico-USA! ghost77 APM
148 Post contains images LTU932 : Or imagine if CM and TA get fresh meat competition if SRB decides to launch Virgin Centroamérica!  The planes would be Costa Rican registered and b
149 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : Where do you draw the line? If you cannot answer that, then your statement is baseless. Whatever. It's the law - get over it. If you want to invest y
150 77411 : I agree totally and it would not be any different in any other industry. No business in its right mind wants competition. Any business would take the
151 MasseyBrown : No, probably not; but a possible result of an impasse is the two-week old prediction of BA's Eddington: that LHR will simply be bypassed as an intern
152 77411 : Speaking of that isn't the current CEO of VA the one who helped run DL into BK. If so it doesn't bode well for the new entity if it takes flight. Pur
153 Atmx2000 : What you said was: If you mistyped and meant DL would receive JFK-LON rights via LGW, OK. But if you meant LHR then I will disagree because it is pla
154 EurostarVA : So in the same spirit, I expect Virgin Nigeria's application to be denied as well. Hail the US of America, at the forefront of "free trade" and global
155 MEACEDAR : Maybe move the planes to Virgin Blue or sell them. For the employees....well YOUR'E FIRED.
156 Sllevin : As I've said, why doesn't Europe just "lead by example" and allow US companies cabotage across the EU? If it's such a great thing, it sounds like the
157 EurostarVA : Looks to me like both sides should lead in trust gestures, for the sake of consummers. Instead, the US is acting all insecure. If you put this in the
158 Post contains images Gh123 : Well I wonder where a good deal of funding for the IRA's terror campaigns on the UK came from!
159 Post contains images Electech6299 : More bankrupt ones! Not even the same issue. Virgin Nigeria is applying to fly into the US as a foreign carrier, will all the restrictions that entai
160 Bn727 : Good....If I had Billions of foriegn money to attempt to kill US carriers....I too, could add capacity to a saturated US domestic market and make sure
161 JetJeanes : Make it Virgin America"s and put a hub over the mexcan border and fly to the U.S. and serve parts of South America as well
162 Post contains images Ptharris : Was that a wiring diagram for the A380? No wonder why they're having problems... both of them!
163 EurostarVA : Of course they are not exactly the same issue but surely the two topics are interrelated. The critical player here is Sir Richard Branson and it appe
164 Post contains images Kiwiandrew : well , UA and CO ( VSs current US partner ) are supposed to be 'talking' - maybe if they get together then VS will give up on Virgin America and final
165 RiddlePilot215 : I wonder which special interest group the DOT was playing to THIS time...Hmm...I just wonder..... This whole Virgin America thing is just ridiculous.
166 Post contains images Electech6299 : Yup, and robbing banks should not be seen as a crime, but a redistribution of wealth. The DOT has no right to address competition, that's a DOJ issue
167 Australia1 : Wow !!! Sounds like some US carriers arwe really running scared !!! Some political lobbyists must be working overtime & earning their money at present
168 Post contains images Gary2880 : It has to be said Virgin cola is the worst thing in a can.. Then you have nothing to worry about do you? you should be worrying for VA because your p
169 Post contains images Lightsaber : Wow... I know my comments will be lost in all this discussion... But quite frankly, I didn't realize VA's ownership structure was that complicated. Fa
170 SK736 : Well isn't that just typical of our American friends. Free marketeers when it suits them, protectionist when it doesn't. Your response underlines eve
171 Post contains images Keesje : So when will sir Richard strike back? Making his opponents look like rusty dinausours objecting progress and free entrepreneurship.. with a dozen came
172 TBCITDG : Isn't it time to open up the market as the US promotes to other countries in the world? Isn't it time for survival of the fittest to rule and we will
173 Post contains images Electech6299 : I'm going back to sleep. Wake me up when the EU changes their ownership rules and embraces free trade. Or at least when the people there realize they
174 Baron52ta : In reference to the many remarks about Virgin, given that it is technically just another offshoot of virgin music how would its operation be any diffe
175 Oldtimer : Do you not remember Debonair, a UK based American owned airline that had no trouble starting operations in the UK. It also, because of poor management
176 LTBEWR : I am not surprised by this. I also believe that it would have been near impossible for them to be financially successful anyway. The limits on foreign
177 Glideslope : You obviously know nothing about Ownership Laws with respect to airlines. It's different than the EU, and quite frankly it's a based on a need to mov
178 Ikramerica : There is so much misinformation in this thread, it really should be locked. So many from other nations taking a chance to badmouth america while putti
179 Glideslope : Never happen here. Branson will be at a podium with a rep from the 4 networks. No girlie show, no dictator standing on the wing. A 320 will be parked
180 Halls120 : I understand quite well the difference, but there is a lesson here which you have overlooked in your smug arrogance. I agree with your assessment tha
181 Post contains images Joge : Muahahah! There you go! -Joge
182 Par13del : Halls120 I'd like to ask a couple questions. I remember when "Made in the USA" meant that content of the product had to be majority made in the US, th
183 NW748i : Man, Virgin really got "run up on" by the other US carriers. It's nice to see such co-operation amongst our legacies...
184 CALPSAFltSkeds : I remember reading that CO was being warned (on this board) that its vocal opposition to Virgin America might affect its China application. Since the
185 Post contains images Valcory :
186 777FlyGuy : I'm glad someone else said it this time. Thank you both. I wholeheartedly agree. But, it is what is it. Now about those LHR slot restrictions?
187 Justloveplanes : US Airlines are the largest in the world, and the few that will survive consolidation will be even larger, especially when all those 787's start flyi
188 Halls120 : Not sure what you are driving at here. (yes, pun intended.) I don't think any of the labeling laws passed by Congress had anything to do with the fac
189 Par13del : Sorry for the delay Halls120, had to step out. Couple points I guess of clarification. My understanding of America may be clouded by history and possi
190 Highflyer9790 : Lovely. perfect example of the US trying to kill another european project. this is embarassing. highflyer
191 Post contains images MasseyBrown : Not to worry about CO on the VA issue. Half the DOT was cheering them on, in a very quiet way, of course.
192 Getdonnie : When you put forth the automobile industry as an analogy it is hard to argue especially when considering the jobs and quality of product provided by t
193 Floridaflyboy : The rights that make it a free country are only for those who are already here. If the foreigners like the people behind Virgin America can't follow
194 Dank : But the poster that was referred to in the message you quoted said that we don't need another carrier in the US. This has nothing to do with whether
195 Par13del : Getdonnie, maybe I'm offbase, but I don't believe that the only reason foreign ownership laws exist is to provide "jobs", I also think that the type o
196 Post contains images Jacobin777 : My comment was about the particular poster..not about VA in general.
197 Sspontak : I'm just curious, but how easy would it be for a U.S. controlled airline to set up a substantial operation in Brazil?
198 VEEREF : As long as foreign countries prohibit the same in return, the law should stand. Other than that, I don't see any reason not to allow it.
199 VEEREF : One thing I have seen alot of in this thread is the "need" for a better airline in the US than what is currently offered. But how is everyone so sure
200 Post contains links DrExotica : As others have noted, there is a lot of incorrect information swirling about in this thread. With respect to the "9/11 Airline Bailout" (or more prope
201 Post contains images Gary2880 : All the worlds heavys are more than welcome to use ABZ to land !!!!!
202 7cubed : Great info! Thanks. 7Cubed
203 Sllevin : It's not a matter of trust. The US doesn't feel it would be better for consumers as a whole (remember, their guidelines are going to be more expansiv
204 UAL747-600 : Or we could let BA/VS fly into secondary airports like Islip (NYC) Ontario (Los Angeles), Midway (Chicago), Love (Dallas) Manchester (Boston) and For
205 Post contains images MasseyBrown : I'm sure the EU doesn't feel it's costing their citizens anything. It was a European (1st Duke of Wellington, I believe) who said, in reference to an
206 Post contains links Atmx2000 : Actually, it is more WWI fears. After WWII, the US proposed a more liberal international airline ownership rules that would allow foreign ownership o
207 Coa747 : I find it amusing that some of the Euro's in this forum talk about how the US domestic market is in need of good competition. Afterall the LCC phenome
208 Electech6299 : That's DOT, it's a federally regulated transportation issue, not a justice issue. This confusion seems to drive most of the baseless comments on this
209 Dank : Sorry, a typo in my comments. And, yes, I agree regarding the discussion of competition. The way I see it, is that the US carriers and many on anet,
210 Sllevin : Just a longer way of saying they are enforcing a law drafted for those specific reasons. In the end, it's the US government who has instituted those
211 Mayhem : The liberalisation of the European skies has only begun in the early nineties... the USA has always been one nation, whiles in Europe the nations are
212 Atmx2000 : While it might have been one market, the US was heavily regulated until the late 1970s deregulation.
213 Mayhem : I don't know too much about that history, but didn't the lcc in the US only came up after that deregulation? And back on-topic, although i'm very pro
214 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Nothing like seeing a VS A346 rolling down 31C..look out..
215 77411 : Nice posts. Maybe our Euro friends who try and find any way possible to turn any topic into an anti-American slant, will do a little research and lea
216 Coa747 : Yes the US is one nation and as such there have been several national carriers competing against each other for a long time. American, United, Delta,
217 Aogdesk : Forgive me if this question has already been asked, tried to find it in this long thread to no avail. What is Virgin doing with the airplanes that hav
218 Electech6299 : Seriously! This has been asked three times and has been ignored each time. (post 155 is about as close as anyone has come to an answer...) For an avi
219 MasseyBrown : The Interstate Commerce Commission was established in 1887 and was the first independent agency. Initially established to regulate the railroads, it
220 Post contains images Electech6299 : I love it!!! Just reminded me of one of my favorite songs... "Well the ICC is a'checkin' on down the line...." (Six days on the road- Dudley) For tho
221 Post contains links and images Solnabo : Guess you read this statement from their website http://www.virginamerica.com/informa...news/story_template.php?article=27 GO Virgin GO!! Micke//
222 DrExotica : Personally, I don't care one way or the other what Virgin does. I highly doubt that they are bringing anything revolutionary to the table. I'd call th
223 Post contains images MasseyBrown : It never occured to me that he meant "LCC". I think of LCC as being the stock symbol for US Airways.
224 AirframeAS : My understanding is that they are all A320's...probably -200's Oh god, that american flag on the winglets...that should be illegal via the F.A.A.
225 LHRGregSE4 : Hmm 2 strikes for Branson recently, I wonder what the real reason for this is. Maybe it's the same reason why his bid for ITV failed. I believe Rupert
226 Post contains images Ikramerica : Some EU members are under the impression that because the EU has redefined who they are, that all nations around the world are obligated to redefine w
227 Halls120 : I was simply following your lead. And I'm not your "pal." You overstate the impact of the enforcement of labor laws. A foreign ship calling at an Ame
228 Electech6299 : Aarggh! I hate myself for doing this (because of my profession).... But don't you realize that the early OSHA was closely allied with the unions? And
229 VEEREF : America is a free country, not a free-for-all. There are still rules. Simply put, you're welcome to come in, play by the rules. If not then take your
230 777FlyGuy : I don't disregard what you are saying, just keep in mind the near-past/recent health of most of our legacies has been less than stellar; many in or n
231 Halls120 : Yes, I do understand OSHA was allied with the unions. And I understand that union and OSHA rules can't be enforced on foreign employers. Which is why
232 Dank : Yep. Unfortunately, in the current political climate in the US it is a winner of a stance to take. cheers.
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