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SQ1 SFO-HKG Refuelling In TPE Due To Head Winds  
User currently offlineJlk From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 184 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 15154 times:

SQ1 from SFO-HKG is making a fuel stop in TPE due to heavy head winds and will arrive in SIN delayed by a couple of hrs.

I have 3 questions.

1. Is the wind so strong that extra fuel cannot be carried to fly the jumbo non stop to HKG?
2. Who makes the call to land in TPE. Given that it was decided even before the bird left SFO, does this call come from the captain or the operational staff on the ground?
3. Will CX departing around the same time from SFO also have to stop somewhere for refuelling?

- Jay

80 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineVref5 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 15113 times:

Quoting Jlk (Thread starter):
1. Is the wind so strong that extra fuel cannot be carried to fly the jumbo non stop to HKG?
2. Who makes the call to land in TPE. Given that it was decided even before the bird left SFO, does this call come from the captain or the operational staff on the ground?
3. Will CX departing around the same time from SFO also have to stop somewhere for refuelling?

1. If you take on extra fuel, you may end up having to leave something off. Passengers or baggage. Extra fuel also represents more mass that you then need to accelerate -- and thus, require more energy to push it.

Extra fuel is not necessarily a cure-all solution for all problems. Sometimes you run into other limitations before you have a chance to fill up fuel to the gills.

Ultimately, the company dispatch department makes the best suggestion for how to most cost-effectively operate the flight, pending the Captain's final approval for their suggested plan of action.

2. Usually it's the company dispatch whom does the flight planning (including the number crunching) for the flight and keeps an eye on flight status including fuel burn, redispatch points, and whatnot.

The Captain may also elect to divert if he/she feels it necessary, too. But for the typical situation with fuel burn issues, will be company dispatch whom suggests a diversion to an alternative to refuel.

3. It depends. It's possible the CX flight is not fully loaded or is weight restricted and can take on more fuel... or maybe not. CX's own dispatchers will be able to make that determination based on exact numbers for that flight.


User currently offlineStylo777 From Germany, joined Feb 2006, 3022 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 15089 times:

how would such a fuel stop look like?
plane lands in TPE, taxi to a remote near the runway, getting fueled, taxi back to the runway and take-off??? a procedure of almost 30minutes i suppose...
But I heard about that fueling while pax onboard isn't allowed so have the passengers to disembark?


User currently offlineQANTAS077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5869 posts, RR: 39
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 15087 times:

was checking some stats on winds lastnight for the part of the region SQ1 would take enroute to HK. headwinds were around 170kts at fl 350.


a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 14928 times:

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 2):
I heard about that fueling while pax onboard isn't allowed so have the passengers to disembark?

I was onboard a flight while it was being refueled earlier this month, so it's definitely allowed.

SQ1 makes a tech stop due to strong winds about 5 times per year, usually at TPE. I'm sure it happens to CX as well, both from SFO and from LAX.


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 14897 times:

Quoting Jlk (Thread starter):
1. Is the wind so strong that extra fuel cannot be carried to fly the jumbo non stop to HKG?
2. Who makes the call to land in TPE. Given that it was decided even before the bird left SFO, does this call come from the captain or the operational staff on the ground?
3. Will CX departing around the same time from SFO also have to stop somewhere for refuelling?

1) This time of year, basically, it's full tanks and that's about all that you can squeeze on. The winds this time of year howl and it's not uncommon to see over 200 Knots for a few hours of the flight.

2) Sometimes it's known a fuel stop will be required prior to leaving SFO and the trip fuel for TPE is loaded and that's it.

3) In other cases, the fuel burn is ok for a non-stop to HKG, but during the flight the winds aren't as forecast, the temp is off, there could be a re-route, or lower than planned altitudes were used. When this happens the fuel burn will increase. If it's a "re-dispatch" flight plan there is a "re-dispatch point" where you're required to have a certain amount of fuel on board. If not, now the Capt gets paid for his decision making. You can, sometimes change the alternate thus getting a little lower fuel required, or if that's not possible, then it's a fuel stop. The en-route fuel stop is generally decided on by both the Captain and Dispatch. However, the "re-dispatch" flight plan is "normally" to the desired fuel stop. But enroute, things can change and a new fuel stop could be used do to things like weather, ATC delays.

4) In the cases where I've stopped for fuel, it was coordinated way in advance and we were fueled, catered and out in about 45 minutes. It really depends on the airline and what they want to do during the stop.

5) As far as CX stopping, it really depends on their loads, fuel policy and ATC routing. The 744 is right at it's limit on the SFO-HKG route and if CX worked with payload restrictions they might not have to stop.


User currently offlineLamedianaranja From Venezuela, joined Nov 2004, 1246 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 14881 times:

AMS sees some a/c that can't make LHR due to strong headwinds every once in a while. QF is one of them.

KL663(B737BBJ) fuels at Gander if it can't make IAH in one hop.



I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
User currently offlineQF744ER From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 14735 times:

I flew on MH93 last month LAX-TPE with 170-200knot head-winds all the way.

Was airborne for 13hr55mins.

Pretty impressive I thought although the flight wasn't full.

61 second take-off roll ex LAX.


User currently offlineTsentsan From Singapore, joined Jan 2002, 2016 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 14523 times:

I understand with a conversation from a flight crew last time that the flight plan for SQ1 will be filed until TPE and the crew/dispatch will decide en-route if they will "extend" the flight to HKG... would this be an accurate?


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User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8498 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 14480 times:
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The flight from the west cast of the USA to HKG which visisted TPE often was the Delta MD-11 from LAX to HKG. 744's from SFO and LAX make it all the way under all but the most extreme situations. Cathay, UA & Singapore don't have reputations for being unscheduled vistitors to TPE. Now how about west coast to bangkok ?

User currently offlineCchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1763 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 14480 times:

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 2):
how would such a fuel stop look like?
plane lands in TPE, taxi to a remote near the runway, getting fueled, taxi back to the runway and take-off??? a procedure of almost 30minutes i suppose...
But I heard about that fueling while pax onboard isn't allowed so have the passengers to disembark?

I was on a NZ B767-300ER from HKG to AKL a couple of years ago, there was a long queue for take off at HKG, and the flight was full with passengers and cargo. We landed at BNE for a fuel stop. The plane parked at one of the gates, door opened, but passengers were not allowed to leave the aircraft while it was refueling. Once the refueling is done, we took off again. Took about 20-30 min.


User currently offlineAndrew From Singapore, joined Dec 1999, 369 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 14461 times:

I was in a UA 744 flying SFO-HKG-SIN back in 1993 and we had to make a tech-stop in TPE after flying for 14 hours on the SFO-HKG leg. Captain came on the intercom and announced that we didn't have enough fuel to reach HKG and as a result will be making a tech stop in TPE to take on more fuel.

User currently offlineWedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5950 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 14452 times:
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Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 9):
The flight from the west cast of the USA to HKG which visisted TPE often was the Delta MD-11 from LAX to HKG.

Why would the DL MD-11 have made a fuel stop in TPE from LAX-HKG when it made a scheduled stop in ANC? Furthermore, TPE was a scheduled DL destination from PDX, onward to BKK, I believe.


User currently offlineBkkair From Thailand, joined Aug 2001, 409 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 14439 times:

The stops are planned long in advance, up to 6 hours before departure.

In the case of CX, a new crew (cockpit and cabin) boards in Taipei or Incheon (depending on where the stop is) so these crew need to be in place well before the departure from the US.

There are also landing fees that must be paid in TPE or ICN (around US$10,000 in TPE) so the airline must calculate that it is better to pay an extra crew and landing fees than to offload passengers or cargo.

On several occasions on CX, I have seen the cargo and passenger baggage offloaded and they still made a fuel stop.

On 27Dec, CX and UA made it non-stop from SFO-HKG whilst SQ stopped in TPE (all using 744 equipment).


User currently offlineJimyvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 14359 times:

** SQ - SINGAPORE AIRLINES **
SQ 1 744 9VSPD 28DEC SFOTPEHKGSIN
SCHD EST ACT PSG DLY
DEP SFO M 0005 0007
ARR TPE M 0550-29.0550-29
DEP TPE M 0650-29 0650-29
ARR HKG M 0655-29.0835-29
DEP HKG M 0800-29 0935-29
ARR SIN M 1150-29.1325-29


User currently offlineRaventom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 269 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 14353 times:

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 2):
But I heard about that fueling while pax onboard isn't allowed so have the passengers to disembark?

I was on an AF flight from HKG to CDG when we had to turn back to a remote stand as a woman was screaming during taxi. We were told to un buckle our seatbelts during a quick re-fuel incase the worst happened. If so we would be ready to evacute with no seatbelts thus saving time etc.



I love the smell of burnt kerosene!!!!!!!!!!!!
User currently offlineFoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 3008 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 14269 times:

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 12):
Why would the DL MD-11 have made a fuel stop in TPE from LAX-HKG when it made a scheduled stop in ANC?

I believe the scheduled stop in ANC ended when the route switched from L-1011 to MD-11. The MD-11 route was scheduled as a nonstop.

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 12):
Furthermore, TPE was a scheduled DL destination from PDX, onward to BKK, I believe.

As I recall the routing was PDX-SEL-TPE-BKK.

[Edited 2006-12-28 17:48:29]


Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8194 posts, RR: 54
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 14216 times:

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 2):
how would such a fuel stop look like?
plane lands in TPE, taxi to a remote near the runway, getting fueled, taxi back to the runway and take-off??? a procedure of almost 30minutes i suppose...

Our own TUGMASTER had a 777 come into LHR on a medical diversion (I believe the flight was a nonstop from India to the US), stairs and fuel truck were attached as the engines ran down, doctor on, pilots radioing for taxi and flightplan clearance, stretcher off (with sick pax strapped to it), fuel going on all the while, as soon as the fuelling was finished, stairs and fuel track are gone and they're taxiing back to the runway. I think it took about 19 mins from brakes on to brakes off. Taipei for the SQ flight may have taken slightly longer (depending on how much fuel they uplifted from HKG) but these things can be done very fast. I was on an Olympic 747-200 that couldn't make Singapore to Athens without a tech stop (Dubai) cos of high winds aloft, we were on the tarmac at DXB for maybe 30 mins.



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineJlk From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 184 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 13241 times:

Quoting Bkkair (Reply 13):
On 27Dec, CX and UA made it non-stop from SFO-HKG whilst SQ stopped in TPE (all using 744 equipment).

That's interesting. All of them use the same equipment and CX leaves around the same time. This time of the year the flights should be completely packed. Infact SQ was checking with passengers if they absolutely needed to travel last night; overbooking I guess. I don't it would be any different with CX.

Btw, the regisration was 9V-SPD


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 13050 times:

As with most airliner models, there are various takeoff weights and engine combinations used by different carriers and thus different performance characteristics.

The reason why AA undoubtedly turnedtheir 777 in LHR so quickly was because they knew they were on the verge of having the pilots go illegal and thus the flight would have to be cancelled. That type of effort is not normal in aviation - although we can wish it were.

I'm honestly surprised that some of the Asiancarriers mentioned here are not staffing their transpac flights with 2 full crews such that they have the crew resources to endure a diversion and still take off w/ the same crews that brought the flight in.

It is possible to file a flight plan to an enroute point and then redispatch at that point through to the final destination assuming the fuel load is adequate. If not, a diversion is probably in order.


User currently offlineJimyvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 12814 times:

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 16):
As I recall the routing was PDX-SEL-TPE-BKK.

DL flew PDX-SEL-TPE-BKK and PDX-TPE-BKK

Quoting Jlk (Reply 18):
Btw, the regisration was 9V-SPD

I briefly mentioned that on FLIFO from SQ.


User currently offlineMalaysia From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 3377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 12577 times:

Quoting QF744ER (Reply 7):
I flew on MH93 last month LAX-TPE with 170-200knot head-winds all the way.

Was airborne for 13hr55mins.

Pretty impressive I thought although the flight wasn't full.

61 second take-off roll ex LAX.

I did MH 93 at 14.25 hours LAX-TPE one-time



There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
User currently offlineKaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2410 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks ago) and read 12418 times:

Quoting Vref5 (Reply 1):

3. It depends. It's possible the CX flight is not fully loaded or is weight restricted and can take on more fuel... or maybe not. CX's own dispatchers will be able to make that determination based on exact numbers for that flight.

Don't the RR powered 747s (CX) have less fuel consumption than the PW powered 747s (SQ)? This would mean that CX could potentially fly SFO-HKG with out limits even with head winds.


User currently offlineIDISA From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 262 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks ago) and read 12182 times:

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 2):
But I heard about that fueling while pax onboard isn't allowed so have the passengers to disembark?

As long as I know fueling is still possible with pax onboard but the fire brigade must be under the aircraft. I've seen this procedure many times here in MXP so I suppose is worldwide procedure.

IDISA


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8498 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 4 weeks ago) and read 12037 times:
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Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 12):



Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 12):
Why would the DL MD-11 have made a fuel stop in TPE from LAX-HKG when it made a scheduled stop in ANC? Furthermore, TPE was a scheduled DL destination from PDX, onward to BKK, I believe.

Delta only stopped at ANC in the beginning of the LAX-HKG service as a scheduled stop, they started the servcie with L-1011-500's. After Delta switched to the MD-11 it continued to stop at ANC. When they went NONSTOP LAX-HKG still with MD-11's, then they had the unscheduled TPE stops.


25 Zvezda : Another issue is that 9V-SPD has the extra hump for the Connexion antenna, which would increase aerodynamic drag and fuel consumption. The SQ configu
26 DC8FanJet : Head winds, Solar flares, heavy loads, it's that time of year. Westbound transpacific flying is a challenge in the winter. Need to get as much payload
27 Jlk : Seems like SQ1 completed fueling in 50 minutes which might suggest that the passengers were not deplaned. But its scheduled transit in HKG onroute to
28 STT757 : I was checking flightware before and two PAL airlines 747-400s enroute from SFO and LAX to MNL made stops in Guam, I guess they needed to also gas up.
29 PanAmOldDC8 : I have been on an Air Canada flight that was delayed due to weather and we had to land in Ottawa, we were de iced and refueled for the flight to YYZ.
30 Jlk : I guess you mean PR by PAL airlines. If so, I believe it has a scheduled stop in GUAM on the onward from SFO, but the return is a non-stop.
31 PhilSquares : There are actually two flight plans filed. One with the refueling point if needed, the other to the intended destination, in this case HKG. You opera
32 Ikramerica : That's also so they can clean and cater and remove some HKG bound cargo and take on some HKG-SIN cargo. That's still pretty impressive to do all that
33 Ikramerica : Oh, and they also have to unload HKG bound pax and their bags, and add on HKG-SIN pax and their bags. Again, 65 minutes is pretty impressive.
34 Brenintw : A couple of years ago I was flying JNB-HKG on a CX 343 when the pilot told us (before takeoff) that we would be stopping in SIN to top up the fuel ("
35 Post contains links AeroWesty : CX has a long reputation for fuel stops in TPE and ICN at this time of year out of LAX. There was a thread on flyertalk.com that tracked them all las
36 10MID : Just pull up to the self-serve pumps at the FBO, whip out the BP card and fill 'er up.
37 AADC10 : Of course a lot depends on the load, but I know UA's 744s have a lower MTOW than some others because they use the lower powered P&W engines models. T
38 WorldTraveler : And it may be that UA tries to minimize fuel stops while other carriers are alot more willing to endure them. I still find it hard to believe that any
39 Trex8 : aren't all PW 744 PW4056?? I thought only the few 744ERFs with Pratts had the 4062. MTOW does vary but I don't think the Pratt engine type
40 FlyDreamliner : I kinda wonder about the TG A345 and whether or not its incredible range is sufficient to push through from LAX-BKK, interesting to see if it makes t
41 Zvezda : As long as they don't load cargo, the A340-500 should be able to make it nonstop LAX-BKK with 180 passengers regardless of weather. Yes, they sometim
42 NYCA330 : Is there an online resource where it is possible to check winds aloft easily? I've tried googling it and ended up with a headache...
43 Mr.BA : When it has to come down to a technical stop more money must be spent to pay for the landing fees, additional fuel and for some of the stuff that was
44 RayChuang : It will be VERY interesting to see if SQ can fly the A380-800 non-stop from SFO to HKG year-round, especially since Airbus has certified the plane at
45 N503JB : TK used to operated SIN-BKK-IST and HKG-BKK-IST, passenger are remain onboard during stopover at BKK while refueling. As far as I know in THY operati
46 Jlk : Speaking of the SQ fleet, does anyone know how old are their youngest and oldest jumbos that are actively used for transcontinent services?
47 Zvezda : If one counts Europe and Asia as separate continents, then SQ don't use Jumbos for transcontinental services. If one counts Eurasia as one continent,
48 Zeke : Also depends on the person driving it, TOGA and no derated climb can help on a long flight. Refuelling jet fuel is generally possible with pax onboar
49 PhilSquares : I'm not quite sure you mean about TOGA, but for derated cllimbs the FMS is programmed to go to full climb between 10,000-14,000 no matter what is sel
50 Zvezda : That would have been impressive in the other direction. If that turns out to be true, then we can expect SQ1/2 to be operated by the WhaleJet by 2009
51 Zeke : Using TOGA and a non derated climb will give us less fuel burn on the 330/340. I cannot remember what the savings was on the 744, however I remember
52 PhilSquares : On the 744, if you're talking about T/O since there is no flex or toga detent (Airbus language), using full TO generally won't save you any fuel and
53 Mr.BA : Hi Phils Say if you accelerate to 340KIAS above 5000ft after taking off at MTOW how's the vertical climb rate like? I would imagine that it's going to
54 PhilSquares : If you're talking about your climb rate while accelerating, the FMS computes about a 1000fpm cllimb until you're at your speed. At 340 (redline is 36
55 Post contains images Jlk : I think mid-air refueling is becoming inevitable
56 RayChuang : If that's the case then SQ will be able to fly the A380-800 from SFO to HKG at standard full load pretty much year-round with maybe 1-2 days at most
57 Zvezda : That would be better than the current 5 or so days per year with the JumboJets.
58 Zeke : Fuel diversions occur more often than that, during typhoon season, windshear, unstable approaches due gusts or crosswinds, thunderstorms the airport
59 Zvezda : An SQ 747 captain told me that SQ1 diverts for fuel about 5 times per year.
60 SingaporeBoy : I was one of the cabin crew that was activated to take over SQ1 on 29thDEC in TPE.We were notified the night earlier at approximately 11pm that SQ1 wo
61 Zvezda : Do SQ schedule a long layover for one of the TPE flights so that a crew is always on hand to take over in case of a diversion? On which flight did yo
62 SingaporeBoy : In winter the cabin crew operating SQ27 LAX/TPE have a 3 day layover in TPE of which 1 day is standby.However as SQ27 is operated by a 777 which has o
63 SOBHI51 : Few years ago on that same flight SQ1,the captain took a wrong turn while taxiing,we were stuck for over an hour with all engines on but idle. Result
64 Jlk : Do you know if the cockpit crew changed @ TPE? Does SQ always choose TPE for a fuel stop or does it choose some other place like ICN? Also does this
65 Qantas744ER : Nope, that is wrong! UA's 744's have PW4056 engines with 56,750Lbs of thrust allowing them the maximum MTOW of the 747-400 of 875,000Lbs just like SQ
66 SingaporeBoy : I am not to sure whether there was a cockpit crew change that day.Perhaps Philsquares can enlighten us as he is a 747 captain..and how they go about a
67 PhilSquares : Generally TPE is the planned, if necessary fuel stop. There are crews in HKG that are on standby that can be alerted and moved to TPE to cover the te
68 Post contains images Jlk : Thanks PhilSquares. Do you fly SQ1/SQ15? Maybe I'll fly one of those days when you are in service
69 Joemac547 : I wonder what will happen to the 2nd SFO-HKG UA flight starting next year operated by a 777. Summer may not be much of a problem, but once winter come
70 RayChuang : I believe the UA 777-200ER's powered by the PW4090 engine sport a range of around 7,500 nautical miles still-air range, as opposed to the 7,200 nauti
71 Zeke : Looking at the patterns and destinations, I think he is with SQC.
72 Jlk : Patterns and destinations??? Where do you get this from?
73 Zvezda : SQ has one JumboJet pilot roster for both cargo and passenger flights. I think it's safe to say that PhilSquares flies both, though he seems to have
74 Post contains links SunriseValley : go to http://aviationweather.gov/iffdp/ , go to the winds and temperatures box and select the zone that you are interested in. From the next screen y
75 SingaporeBoy : I was talking to 1 of the pilots that day on my flight back from TPE/SIN and he told me that not all SQ pilots can fly both the passenger and cargo fl
76 Zeke : Unless something has changed recently, that is not entirely correct. Passenger 744 pilots can be rostered for both passenger and cargo flights, this
77 PhilSquares : That exists at both companies. I don't kiss and tell......I would like to remain anonymous and if too much info is given out it becomes very easy to
78 Zvezda : Thank you SingaporeBoy, Zeke, and PhilSquares for correcting me.
79 SunriseValley : Phil, are you retiring from the flight deck or do you have other plans?
80 PhilSquares : Other plans....I still have 4 1/2 years to go, then I'll think about doing something else...
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