FXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7462 posts, RR: 80 Posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7499 times:
Greetings and Happy New Year.
Today at the good ole AUS ramp we had a AA flight inbound to DFW from SFO.
The flight diverted from DFW to my ramp at AUS. Passengers where held "hostage" for 8 hrs on the aircraft, stationed on the ramp with little explanation. Left at the AUS ramp with no complementary hotels or food, hopefully they get home tomorrow.
Despite my allegiance to the airline from my uncle being an international captain, this story makes me sick.
PS. No mail on Tuesday kids. RIP, Mr President G. Ford.
TK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4734 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 7117 times:
Quoting FXramper (Thread starter): Passengers where held "hostage" for 8 hrs on the aircraft, stationed on the ramp with little explanation.
It is not that uncommon.
-I had to sit at the tarmac at ORD, watch 2 full movies, and then go back to the gate to get more fuel and use the restrooms. This was a flight to New York and it was delayed due to weather in NYC.
-2 years ago on a TK flight from IST-JFK, after circling over snowy JFK 8 times, landed in BOS. That was over 11 hours after take off, we were stranded 6 hours on the tarmac. I think the pilot was planning to fly back to JFK, he got some fuel, deiced. But after some pax calling 911, police boarded the plane, still in the middle of tarmac, and in snow storm. We were then pulled to a gate, and eventually ended up in a hotel.
I should do a TR on this one, it was some ordeal.
I posted earlier about this topic but apparently it was deleted. However, I will summarize my points.
1. Why did it take AA 8 hours to clear a gate for this plane disembark? Can't they push an empty plane back and allow this plane to approach? Can't they borrow a gate from another airline to allow this plane to disembark and then push back?
2. After the NW mess a few years back they have a policy that passengers cannot be held for more than 3 hours on the ground. I suggest Congress pass a law making this policy standard across the industry.
3. In the eight hours this plane held on the tarmac, why did AA not contact the TSA and ask for an exception to allow them to disembark down the rear stairs of the aircraft and into a bus.
In my mind, it is completely unacceptable for AA to hold their customers hostage. It is unfortunate that Congress would need to pass a law mandating decent human behavior but I am afraid AA has so little regard for their customers this is the only way things will change.
AlitaliaMD11 From Spain, joined Dec 2003, 4068 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 7028 times:
Last summer a SAS flight from CPH diverted to SWF and the passengers had to stay on board because there was no customs facility but the passengers ended up being stuck on the plane for 7 hours because the crew clocked out.
An 8 hour flight from CPH and then 7 hours more on the plane, total of 15 hours.
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21934 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 6975 times:
Quoting Adh214 (Reply 5): 2. After the NW mess a few years back they have a policy that passengers cannot be held for more than 3 hours on the ground. I suggest Congress pass a law making this policy standard across the industry.
I agree. I believe airlines are not thinking of the welfare of pax but only of their bottom line when they do such a thing, and a law should indeed be passed.
An exception can be made for International flights, as they are usually not allowed to "enter the country" at the diversion airport, and another exception when the ramp is closed due to lightning, but that's about it.
Stuck on an MD80 for 8 hours? Considering the plane can't even fly for 8 hours, it was not designed for this...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
ABQopsHP From United States of America, joined May 2006, 879 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 6801 times:
Was listening to AUS APPR/TWR/GRND on liveATC.net friday afternoon, and there were lots of diverted flghts there from DFW and IAH. An AA crew made a request to the TWR if the F/O could drop the aft stairs, go down to the belly and let 2 dogs out to potty in a grassy area near where the a/c was holding. They wanted to make sure it was not an active area. A few minutes later the TWR came back and said yes as soon as an airport ground ops person came out to supervise. That was mighty nice of the flight deck to think about the dogs. Id venture to say the pax must have been on board worried about their pets.
IAirAllie From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6768 times:
So what. I was stuck in a NWA plane for over 8 hours in Japan a couple of months ago this after a flying all the way from Portland Oregon. The FA's didn't even come by with water after their prelanding service which happened about 2 hours prior to our diversion (so 10 hours not even offered a cup of water). I've been stuck on a United Express (ACA) plane for 12 hours we were just flying from Oklahoma city to ORD. Similar happened on a Continental Express flight they let us off the plane after about 3 hours to sit in the terminal for an additional 5 hours but the terminal was so tiny it didn't make much difference and it had no services. Let's see who else have I been stuck on for hours, oh yeah just about every airline. Diversions happen and often supplies, gates and equipment are not available for that aircraft type or you are often at the mercy of another airline when it is available. Rolling delays stretch out and the airlines have no control over it. With crew legalities a return to the gate can mean a cancellation in an offline city. It's not like any airline want this to happen and they do their best to try to fix it. Sometimes it's just not possible. At least AA carries (or at least used to) an emergency supply of snacks in case of delay.
Zvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10512 posts, RR: 63
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6769 times:
If you're ever in such a situation, all you have to do is stand up, and announce to the passengers that if anyone would like to disembark in the terminal, all they have to do is phone 911 and report that they are being held captive. Don't say "hostage," because that wouldn't be true. The FAs will notice this, inform the captain, and the airline will immediately bring the aircraft to the next available gate to avoid a police boarding and the associated bad press.
Another alternative is to phone the local press. They will then phone the airline to get their side of the story. That will set in motion a chain of phone calls to minimize the bad press which will also result in the aircraft taxiing to the next available gate.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3339 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6708 times:
If it wasn't weather, it may have had something to do with Presidents 747 being in the immediate air space. The Presidents 747 has been flying to/from PSP for President Ford funeral the last couple of days.
ATC does not allow aircraft to arrive or depart if the President or Vice President aircraft is arriving or departing. Two years ago we were delayed in RNO during a VP Cheney visit.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
LJDRVR From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6681 times:
Uninformed tripe on many topics today.
Those of you who are using the word hostage are mistaken. Only concerned about the bottom line? No, Safety is the first priority. After that, getting you to your destination.
If a flight is diverted, more gas will be added and the situation will be assessed. Usually, if the ground stop program is lifted, ATC is operating with increased in-trail separation. This assures they don't get "slammed" with too many jets just as the situation is improving. If the flight is going to continue, they'll push off the gate as possible to get sequenced into the "que" if they remain at the gate and deplaned, you may get to enjoy your crappy airport food, but you'll be bypassed by other passengers who will arrive at your destination first because their crew got in line. Also consider that operations needs the gate for another aircraft. (What a concept! You're not the only person flying today!) Also consider the flight may be an international arrival at an airport without customs, in which case you'll remain their "prisoner" Even with customs, Airlines aren't going to waste two hours so you can stretch your legs. They'll add the gas and go sit in line so you can get to your destination, which is what you're paying them for.
Congress should make a law? No, you babies shold ride the train. Time to spare, go by air. Want to control the situation? Charter a small jet. $2-3000 bucks an hour is what total control of the situation will cost you. Otherwise, pay your 99 bucks and shutup.
To the gentleman who suggested contacting law enforcement in an attempt to get the Captain to return to the gate, huh? Go ahead and do that. The Police are going to read you the riot act. If you insist they get involved, You'll gladly be taken back to the gate where local law enforcement officials will be happy to entertain you. If you think for a moment that the crew considers bad publicity in the decision making process you're sadly mistaken. Interfere with or disobey the crew in any manner, and you'll leave the jet in handcuffs.
IH8B6 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 218 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6637 times:
I am not excusing what happened, but from the other side of the coin:
Just like the DL flight the other night in LAS that diverted and there was a complaint about the length of time for new equipment to be dragged up and readied-
Lots of thunderstorms in DFW yesterday. I looked at diverts at one point and over 3 hours it was over 70 diversions. The FAA arrivals page showed DFW did not take any traffic for a few hours. So, you've got 70 A/C scatted throughout out stations in TX/OK/LA/TN. So AUS gets extra planes on the ground. AUS is not staffed to handle these extra flights (and don't tell me they don't want to pay people extra - give me a break, we'll pay what we have to, it makes life easier on everyone), it takes ramp crew and gate agents to be there to do it. They are off working scheduled flights. Even if they have a scheduled flight to DFW on the gate and it's empty, the amount of time to push it off, park it, bring another aircraft in and let those people off is too long. The dispatchers and crew have no idea what the FAAs plans are, so even if it is possible, do we coordinate getting 4 or 5 planes to one gate, unloaded and pushed off? What happens if the flight "A" is released when flight "B" is being brought to the gate? Do we stop bringing "B" a/c in and go get "A"? The people on a/c "B" will be pissed, and because of the delay the "A" flight may miss the wheels up time. Too many factors for all of that. Yeah, it sucks, stuck on an aircraft for anything longer than 2 hours sucks, I don't care what kind of equipment it is but operational constraints and thunderstorms happen. It's an assumed risk when traveling……just like people being pissed in DEN for being stuck there a few days - would you drive your car in that?
Happy New Years to all and let the let the flames being…….
Lt-AWACS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6564 times:
Quoting LJDRVR (Reply 18): Go ahead and do that. The Police are going to read you the riot act. If you insist they get involved, You'll gladly be taken back to the gate where local law enforcement officials will be happy to entertain you. If you think for a moment that the crew considers bad publicity in the decision making process you're sadly mistaken. Interfere with or disobey the crew in any manner, and you'll leave the jet in handcuffs.
Actually law enforcement have been called before (as noted in the several stories posted above) and folks have been deplanned because of it. Aside from the fact many cops are incompetant boobs, they will not read you the riot act. Is it a good idea to call? Well that gets the standard it depends answer.
I fly corporate jets, it is more than 3k these days for a normal trip!
Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Capt-AWACS, Seven Continents Down, None to Go
TK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4734 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6540 times:
Quoting LJDRVR (Reply 18): To the gentleman who suggested contacting law enforcement in an attempt to get the Captain to return to the gate, huh? Go ahead and do that. The Police are going to read you the riot act. If you insist they get involved, You'll gladly be taken back to the gate where local law enforcement officials will be happy to entertain you. If you think for a moment that the crew considers bad publicity in the decision making process you're sadly mistaken. Interfere with or disobey the crew in any manner, and you'll leave the jet in handcuffs.
I think you mean Zvezda, but I have first hand experience on this matter. (Reply 4). After an 11 hour flight from IST, TK flight no.1 landed in BOS on Jan 26th, 2005. We parked somewhere at the end of a runway for about 4 hours before the captain made any announcements. But before that people started calling TK office, Turkish consulates, anyone at high places and finally 911. First, 3 police cars came to the left hand side of the plane. Then shortly after more and eventually they (at least three) boarded the plane with one of those trucks with stairs. Asked if we were OK?, listened to complaints, and one hour later we were at a gate.
In our case, no information from the cockpit, long flight, snow storm, a full 343 with 270 on board with no water or food left at this point made people to act this way. No one got arrested. TK afterwards offered me 5000 miles on their mileage program, I laughed.
HAMAD From United Arab Emirates, joined Apr 2000, 1162 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6532 times:
Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 6): Were you on the aircraft? How do you know what explanation the passengers were given? Isn't using the word hostage a little extreme? I am sure it was not a pleasant experience. No need to exaggerate.
i don't think he was exagerating, (i would have used the same term) 8 hours is a long time to sit on a parked airplane.
#1 they don't serve food on domestic (in case that was a domestic flight). I am sure that there were elders, children and people with dietary needs, and they had to get little something to eat, where are they supposed to get that from? and what if you were supposed to get medication, that requires you to get a real "MEAL" and not peanuts?
#2 with AA getting away with MRTC, people can get over the cramping if the plane was in the air, but on the ground..... people will feel that they need to getup just because they are on the ground, and i am sure the attitude from the crew on that flight was "WHATEVER"
Queso From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6451 times:
Quoting Adh214 (Reply 5): After the NW mess a few years back they have a policy that passengers cannot be held for more than 3 hours on the ground. I suggest Congress pass a law making this policy standard across the industry.
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8): I agree. I believe airlines are not thinking of the welfare of pax but only of their bottom line when they do such a thing, and a law should indeed be passed.
If you feel that way then do something about it! Get on the phone first thing Wednesday morning to the offices of the Senators and Representatives for your area! Don't just keep griping about it, if you feel that way there are likely others just like you that feel that way too. Do something about it!
I doubt any congressional legislation would fly, but there's gotta be some sort of reform for the individual airlines. Regardless of the delay, it would be nice to see an official policy for an airline to not keep passengers waiting on a stranded a/c longer than say 2-3 hrs? I know the reasoning behind keeping pax on an a/c is to eliminate the financially responsibility the airline would incur, but 8 hrs is ridiculous.
: Thats bad very bad. did they get any compensation?
: Do you really think this is what AA wanted? This has to be the dumbest advice of all time. What is the difference between captive and hostage and I t
: Negative. There were ample gates available. FYI, there is no tar used in the making of runways, taxiways, and ramps. Everyone is entitled to an opini
: Yeah it would be nice to see some kind of policy and internally, at airlines guidelines (read - policies) exist, but sometimes there is nothing you c
: A hostage is someone being held captive for ransom. The airline didn't contact the passengers' families and demand money for their release, therefore
: But I believe that for either one to be true you have to have intent. But still to call 911 and say either of these is idiotic. I understand the frus
: Instead of keeping pax on the a/c for 8 hrs and eventually getting them to their FD the airline does the following: Send mobile stairs to a/c. Transp
: IIRC, the "hold" on arrivals and departures is usually ten to fifteen minutes. And I believe that applies only if POTUS or the Veep is on the aircraf
: Understand what you mean but when a diversion is for a thunderstorm the airline has no idea when the aircraft is going to be released. When this part
: This should be an airline policy, across the industry, not a law. If you were in charge, ask yourself, how would you treat your family? This is a case
: It was friggin' weather related. What did you want AA to do, fly in to an unsafe weather situation? If you can predict the future, work in AA ops so
: If a USA domestic flight is on a ground stop, diverted where a weather or MX problem for more than 2 hours but less than 4 hours, then where possible,
: I strongly disagree. When the AF 777 diverted to Irkutsk, the Russian authorities suspended customs and immigration formalities so that the passenger
38 DL Widget Head
: So, how did you listen in on the what the Captain was communicating to his passengers?
: Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 38): So, how did you listen in on the what the Captain was communicating to his passengers? Hi Widget, we had a ramp age
: Once I was on a flight to LaGuardia and a rather snotty gentleman insisted upon getting on the phone to the Local media to alert them of his "plight"
: If people adhered to this mantra all service industries would be a complete mess. Pay your 99 bucks and complain when the minimum level of service is
: Just a thought, why even a sequestered area? On a domestic flight, there is no need to re-enter security when making a connection, so the passengers
: This reminds me of the American Eagle Saab 340 pilot friend of mine who was waiting about 30th in line to take off by a passenger making phone calls f
: So you are, by any standard, unusually patient. The vast majority of passengers, including me, prepare very differently for a 2 hour flight and a 10
: To keep the passengers from wandering off all over the airport. While I applaud the principle of your "tough shit" approach to passengers who are not
: First of all, there's a BIG difference being on a SQ 345 that has catering and comfort for a 17 hour flight than being on an aging MD80 with "catering
: How about this for an idea...Charter Bus America is based in Austin, Texas...how about grabbing a couple of Charter Bus America coach buses (I'm sure