Jasond From Australia, joined Jul 2009, 13 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 51852 times:
Quoting Flykal (Reply 2): For those quick to doubt the original poster's authenticity...
That was unfair, I was NOT at all doubting the poster especially given the subject matter, I was simply trying to obtain a link, you may apologise whenever you are ready
Sevenair From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 1728 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 51700 times:
Also reports that the weather in the region was very poor - but I cannot get a metar/sigmet/equivalent for the area - so not sure if weather is a factor or not.
Potter From Norway, joined Oct 2006, 5 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 51680 times:
Channel News Asia is reporting 102 pax on board. This article also reports a simular incident last year, where an Adam Air airliner lost all communication and navigation systems for four hours during a flight between Jakarta and Makassar:
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 3907 posts, RR: 78 Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 51620 times:
Although nobody does know so far what exactly has happened, if this ends up going wrong then it was a disaster in waiting. Just check every post on Indonesian aviation on this forum and read the warnings by just about every poster acquainted with domestic aviation in here.
9V From China, joined Aug 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 51449 times:
Sky News does say Last year, one of its jetliners lost all communication and navigation systems for four hours during a flight between the Indonesian capital Jakarta and Makassar on Sulawesi Island. The pilot was forced to make an emergency landing.
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 3907 posts, RR: 78 Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 51366 times:
Latest news here in CGK is that the flight left the East Javanese capital of Surabaya earlier this afternoon and was expected to arrive in the North Sulawesi capital of Manado at 16.23 local time (09.23 GMT). That is now over 5 hours ago, so it is safe to say that something serious happened. Last contact with the plane was around 14.00 local time (08.00 GMT) by ATC at Makassar Hasanudin International Airport in South Sulawesi.
Flykal From Australia, joined Sep 2003, 435 posts, RR: 5 Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 51330 times:
From CNN:
The plane left Surabaya in East Java at 1:00 p.m. local time (0600 GMT) on a two-hour flight to Manado on the northern tip of Sulawesi island, Transport Ministry official Ichsan Tatang said.
It was still missing more than five hours later.
Although speculation, experience says that an aircraft missing for more than five hours without any notification to the company, is an aircraft down. In this day and age, this just doesn't happen without someone being notified. I would say, that unfortunately, we should expect the worse.
One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 3907 posts, RR: 78 Reply 20, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 51168 times:
It is reported in our Operations Control Center here at CGK that the plane has been located about 100 miles off Makassar and has indeed gone down. The news is now also reported in the domestic media here.
Timboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 685 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 51047 times:
The news conference should have started by now, so hopefully a fuller picture should emerge soon. BBC is saying contact was lost at 35 000 feet. If the plane has indeed come down as HB-IWC says, then I just hope that there are survivors.
Alessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 50886 times:
Seem like Mandala (no internet connection due to the Taiwan earthquake?)
wasn´t too impressed by the AdamAir in this thread, RE: Adam Air - The Flying Circus Nightmare (by Mandala499 Aug 22 2006 in Civil Aviation)?searchid=2949301&s=mandala499#ID2949301
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 3907 posts, RR: 78 Reply 26, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 53986 times:
The press conference a bit further here at the Soekarno Hatta Sheraton has yet to start, and I am just posting here what we are being told at the Garuda OCC. We have only been told that the plane has gone down about 100 miles off Makassar. Its last contact was at 15.23 local time (08.23 GMT) with Makassar Hasanudin and it has sent a distress signal shortly after. All of that is now about 7 hours ago. Manado, the flight's final destination, is approximately 500 miles north of Makassar.
Adam Air is currently about to fly relatives of those on board and who have been waiting for news at Manado's Sam Ratulangi airport to Makassar, which is indicative of some of the things they might already know. Also, Singapore Changi's Radar System is said to have provided the Indonesian authorities with information about the last whereabouts of the aircraft.
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 3907 posts, RR: 78 Reply 29, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 54330 times:
It is now reported here at my office that the aircraft involved was PK-KKW. Only two pictures of this aircraft in the airliners database, and none in the full Adam livery.
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 3907 posts, RR: 78 Reply 31, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 52823 times:
The press conference has meanwhile started and didn't last very long, and as far as I understand the local language here, the management of Adam Air confirms that there was a distress signal 84 miles northwest of Makassar, which was picked up by Singapore Changi. The flight was then in the air for about 1 hour and 10 minutes, and was carrying fuel for about 4 hours and 10 minutes. The distress signal was sent almost 8 hours ago now. The Indonesian Navy has now been deployed to search for the aircraft, but it is already evening in here.
Mika From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 2712 posts, RR: 4 Reply 32, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 52551 times:
First of all i want to express my condolences to the people in any way touched by this accident, this was for sure a horrible way to start the new year. May god rest the perished ones souls.
On a sidenote i was wondering if the A/C involved was a plane that i travelled on in the past..since Adam Air's B733's are former Easy Jet machines. I travelled on the A/C that came to be PK-KKU, but apparently that was not the A/C involved here.
9VSWA From Singapore, joined exactly 3 years ago today! , 56 posts, RR: 0 Reply 37, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 51364 times:
Quote: I'm pretty sure that it won't be long before we are all here gathered again to discuss the next incident in Indonesian domestic aviation.
This was said just days ago in another thread discussing an Indonesian aviation incident. Unfortunately it seems that these words may just have come true in terrible circumstances.
RIP to all, if any, who perished and my condolences to anyone affected by this accident.
Cedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 7029 posts, RR: 57 Reply 38, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 51277 times:
How the f*** can airlines like Adam Air be allowed to fly? I have just read Mandala 499's recent thread about Adam Air. I hope the press read that post and use some of it. This cannot be allowed to go on. A scandal. The Indonesian CAA guys who allow this nonsense should all be on trial. Remind me never to fly on an Indonesian airline. If this can happen at Adam Air, it can happen at Garuda or any of them.
I don't usually go in for the "RIP" bit but in this case I must say I genuinely sympathise with the relatives and friends of those lost in this tragedy, because if the airline and the authorities were professional people, the victims would still be alive.
Yes! Senator Obama. We are ready to believe again.
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 3907 posts, RR: 78 Reply 40, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 50606 times:
Quoting 9VSWA (Reply 45): Quote:
I'm pretty sure that it won't be long before we are all here gathered again to discuss the next incident in Indonesian domestic aviation.
This was said just days ago in another thread discussing an Indonesian aviation incident. Unfortunately it seems that these words may just have come true in terrible circumstances.
Those were my words, and together with what Mandala499 said in that same thread, it was just one of the many instances in which both of us discussed the dire situation of Indonesian domestic aviation. Horrible as it may sound, and without knowing the exact circumstances of today's incident, it is clear that it doesn't come as a surprise to either of us.
The state of some companies in the Indonesian aviation scene is dire at best, and safety and maintenance incidents are an almost daily occurence. Many of these companies lack the professionalism to run an airline according to international standards and the Indonesian government is refusing to take appropriate measures to restore the industry's integrity. It should be noted that Adam Air is a private airline which belongs to the family of the country's House Speaker.
Again, I don't know what has caused today's calamity, but Adam Air is, as we speak, once again showing its incompetence in running a professional operation. It was just reported in the local media, that, even as the news of the missing plane was already all over the new, the airline was still sticking to its original line that the flight had been canceled and would be rescheduled to tomorrow morning.
Halls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 41, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 50298 times:
Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 40): Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 40):How the f*** can airlines like Adam Air be allowed to fly?
The are getting some more new A320's so maybe they will turn the corner with the help from Airbus and lessors.
New airplanes might only be a short term solution. From whay others have posted, it would appear that the airline's management is shockingly incompetent - perhaps criminally negligent.
PanAmOldDC8 From Barbados, joined Dec 2006, 960 posts, RR: 2 Reply 42, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 50022 times:
Quoting 9VSWA (Reply 37): This was said just days ago in another thread discussing an Indonesian aviation incident. Unfortunately it seems that these words may just have come true in terrible circumstances
First of all may I offer my deepest sympathy to all the loved ones and hope they get through these difficult times
I think that it is time that all airline operators have standards set for them throughout the world. I know that a lot of you are going to come back and say they are
However what I am talking about is an organisation based in Switzerland, where the inspectors will go from country to country and check the maintenance etc and report back to HQ with their results. Which will then be forwarded to the countries invovled, if no action is taken then they can suggest a boycott using the press etc, to get their message out. It is better to fix the problem than to lose one life
Thomson735 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 162 posts, RR: 0 Reply 43, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 50064 times:
SO can i ask why are these airlines allowed to fly?? is there some kinda of Corruption allowing them to fly, i made a similar comment about i think it was ADC?? airlines in Africa, it is shocking that they are allowed to operate
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 4546 posts, RR: 60 Reply 44, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 49911 times:
Geez, my cellphone's been busy since 4pm this afternoon... I was out of the house until 1500UTC guys... My phone's been going non-stop before battery died...
Aircraft involved: PK-KKW, 734
Capt. Widodo, F/O: Yoga, FA1: Verawaty, FA2: Dina, FA3: Nining, FA4: Ratih
96 pax, 2 pilots, 4 F/As... one of the F/As is a friend of one of the uploaders to a.net...
Just looking at some pics of the crew at their blogs...
Fuel consumption calculation for this route would normally yield an endurance for 2hrs (trip) + 1h30 (altn) + Holding... 4hrs... it's >5hrs overdue.
ELT signal has been received by Makassar ATC, but positions are sketchy... Looks like it was filed for a route via Makassar, but after waypoint DASTY it was given direct TAPIR/LUANG, as per usual... This made the aircraft go through some cr4ppy wx... So, while WX could be a factor, it's probably worth investigating if the WXRdr was operating at the time... Well, you know Adam's habits!
To be honest, this accident is quite surprising, and not simple given the current information. Previous Adam Air's accidents have been relatively easy to solve (even for a non-investigator with some systematic data processing)...
However, Should this be a non-WX issue (by the way, running into a cumulonimbus because your weather radar is inop is NOT a WX issue, it's a Dispatch/Maintenance issue!), I guess the circus has had its first fatalities!
The DGAC is suspecting weather though...
Area of crash (according to latest info) is roughly around: S3.135.257 E119.917
Just taking the 3.135/119.917 should give it around MK NDB, around radial 020 @ 120NM from MKS/Makassar VOR. Highest peaks in the area: 11,286', 8,286' and 7,814' and another few north ofit >8000'
Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
PanAmOldDC8 From Barbados, joined Dec 2006, 960 posts, RR: 2 Reply 45, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 49337 times:
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 45): Area of crash (according to latest info) is roughly around: S3.135.257 E119.917
Just taking the 3.135/119.917 should give it around MK NDB, around radial 020 @ 120NM from MKS/Makassar VOR. Highest peaks in the area: 11,286', 8,286' and 7,814' and another few north ofit >8000'
Thanks for the info, keep us posted on your experience and the latest
Baroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 10690 posts, RR: 51 Reply 46, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 49332 times:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200701/s1820173.htm
States it was about an hour short of its destination in Manado. That would be over pretty rough terrain - mind you that describes a fair bit of Sulawesi. With most of Sulawesi you can pick between the volcanic spines, or the adjacent seas, Makassar to the W and Maluku to the E.
Indonesians tend to want to do things their way. But do not underestimate the competence of individuals, the systems tend to be the problem.
SEPilot From United States, joined Dec 2006, 3976 posts, RR: 25 Reply 47, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 49276 times:
We in the US (and most of Europe, for that matter) have come to accept the reality of safe air travel. It did not just happen; the FAA is known as the "tombstone agency" because so many of the rules were written in the blood of crash victims. But the results have been astounding; I can remember growing up in the 60's reading about airline crashes on a regular basis; it now is extremely rare, and there are many times as many airliners in the sky than there were then. I am an avid private pilot, and unfortunately the same cannot be said for private flying. The fact is that the airlines have to follow the book, and the book is extremely comprehensive, having been written in the blood of so many victims. Private pilots do not have to follow the book, and so regularly do extraordinarily stupid things that have catastrophic outcomes. From reading this forum it appears to me that Indonesia must be allowing the airlines the same kind of latitude allowed private pilots in this country; and that is truly alarming. Bear in mind I do NOT believe we should have more regulation of private pilots here; I believe freedom includes freedom to be an idiot and kill yourself if you want, as long as you don't take a lot of innocent victims with you. While private pilots do unfortunately kill others, almost all of them are willing passengers and thus have knowingly taken the risk. But running an airline is another matter entirely, and the government has a duty to see that it is as safe as possible. We have certainly proved that it can be extraordinarily safe, and shame on Indonesia for not utilizing what has been learned at such high cost elsewhere in the world. I am surprised that the insurance industry is willing to do business with these airlines; maybe they don't have insurance. That certainly would not be permissible in Europe or the Americas, but I don't know about Indonesia. Say what you want (and I have said plenty) about the rapacious American legal system; one positive result has been to make safety the number one goal of any transportation business. Obviously Indonesia does not have the same legal climate as the US. As to Cedarjet's speculation about new A320's solving the problem, I believe it is just as likely that flying pigs will displace the A380. If there is not a safety mindset in the organization they could fly flying carpets and still crash them.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 3907 posts, RR: 78 Reply 48, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 49228 times:
We are no longer getting any information here in the Garuda OCC. Adam Air's management has not yet come out, and the earlier press conference was mainly organized by the country's ministry of transportation. Adam Air was represented by one of their chief pilots. I wonder when we are going to see the real big shots of the airline.
It is after midnight now in the area where the aircraft was lost, so I don't think that anything new will be heard tonight. The Indonesian military is now involved in trying to locate the aircraft but given that it's the middle of the night and that the weather is not very conducive, I presume we'll have to wait until tomorrow for more news.
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 4546 posts, RR: 60 Reply 49, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 49400 times:
Aircraft said to have been found, land impact... and "impact signal" has been received from ELT.
On a disturbing front... it looks like the handling of this accident is bordering on criminal.
The relatives of the pax have been isolated in Surabaya airport by the airline and news agencies have indicated the possibility of intimidation by the airline to them.
This wouldn't be the first instance where this is suspected. I'd be liable if I spew it all out here I think...
Given the mountaineous region, I seriously doubt the aircraft is in 1 piece.
Sad first day of 2007...
Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
Yhmfan From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 585 posts, RR: 2 Reply 51, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 48795 times:
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 41): Again, I don't know what has caused today's calamity, but Adam Air is, as we speak, once again showing its incompetence in running a professional operation.
They do seem to be an unprofessional bunch. Just out of curiosity, I visited their website and looked at the "safety" page. They seem to be quite proud of themselves that they don't actually listen to passengers to make decisions about allowing a flight to take off during bad weather!!!!
Safety will be put on top priority for providing safe carriage to all passengers. For safety reasons, we are very strict to anybody whomsoever. Thus, we apologize for having to argue with you due to any condition beyond control, such as bad weather, so that a flight must be delayed or cancelled.
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you
MEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 3425 posts, RR: 47 Reply 52, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 48451 times:
Quoting Yhmfan (Reply 52): They seem to be quite proud of themselves that they don't actually listen to passengers to make decisions about allowing a flight to take off during bad weather!!!!
Safety will be put on top priority for providing safe carriage to all passengers. For safety reasons, we are very strict to anybody whomsoever. Thus, we apologize for having to argue with you due to any condition beyond control, such as bad weather, so that a flight must be delayed or cancelled.
They actually mean that they sometimes have to argue that the flight is cancelled due to bad weather while the passengers are shouting that they want to fly. Still it's a bit a weird text for on a website and quite saddening with the crash and possible weather relatedness in hindsight.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 3907 posts, RR: 78 Reply 55, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 48286 times:
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 50): On a disturbing front... it looks like the handling of this accident is bordering on criminal.
The relatives of the pax have been isolated in Surabaya airport by the airline and news agencies have indicated the possibility of intimidation by the airline to them.
This comes as no surprise, does it? You can be sure that the story line will be twisted and turned to suit Adam Air's needs. The chief pilot in the press conference earlier was already waving around maintenance records of the plane indicating that there was no problem with the aircraft in the past couple of days, stating that the cause was probably the weather conditions. Come on! This is a chief pilot. Shouldn't he know better than to speculate about a disaster that has not even been 100% confirmed?
And while the plane's recent maintenance record may very well have shown no problems - or not, we will probably never know - it is a sure thing that the airline management's main concern tonight will be to control the story rather than to care for the victims, any survivors, and their families. The local news was just showing disturbing pictures of reporters being scared away and intimidated at Surabaya's Juanda airport.
It is disgusting to see how these airlines can continue to show such a blatant lack of professionalism, even in the face of this calamity, because they are under the high protection from the powers that currently be in this country.
Afterburner From Indonesia, joined Jun 2005, 724 posts, RR: 0 Reply 56, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 48446 times:
I'll tell you a story about a young man named Adam Adhitya Suherman. After graduating from high school, his parents sent him to the US to study business. He failed to finish his study there and went home instead. What kind of punishment he got by not finishing his study? An airline named after him!. He became the President of Adam Air, founded by his parents and Mr Agung Laksono, the speaker of the Indonesian House of Representative. Mr Laksono's son, Dave, became the Vice President.
p.s.
I googled "Adam Suherman" and I found this funny blog about him.
Pilotdude09 From Australia, joined May 2005, 1682 posts, RR: 3 Reply 58, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 48150 times:
Reading Mandala's thread about Adam Air, it shows how corrupt Indonesia is, and how discraceful the airline industry is over there, and major western airlines want to send their maintanace over there? i would never ever set foo on any aircraft that is maintined in Indonesia.
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 4546 posts, RR: 60 Reply 60, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 48116 times:
Guys,
It is confirmed it has made land impact... exact location/condition of that has not been confirmed.
The airline is now shutting up and not dishing out any info. Relatives and victims intimidated into silence seems to have been done more than once... and seems that they're doing it again!
I guess we'll see more Adam pilots being sued by the company for material and immaterial damages for their voice of concerns regarding safety... I guess the US$2000 F/A training course will end up as a $100,000 lawsuit if an F/A does the same thing too...
Military has stated they'll look for the aircraft tomorrow from the air. No info on ground units.
The stupid and silliest thing was in the press conference... the Chief Air Safety Officer (I think), put out a blank form of paper stating:
"The aircraft is in a good condition. Here is the form that the crew fill in from the day before regarding their complaints and concerns on the aircraft. As you see, it is empty."
I'm shaking my head! If I saw the registrations correctly, yesterday, -KKW was parked and NOT FLYING... I think it was parked in Remote D Apron! All day! Yes, it's empty alright, coz no flight crew touched the damn plane!
Last C-Check was in Dec 2005, 45,000hrs total, 26,000 cycles total.
I shall be imposing a ban on Adam Air on my company's travel list tomorrow (I dun care what my CEO says!), and put up a pretty face at a travel agent's tomorrow who's asked me to talk about this accident... now that's something I'm trying to avoid at the moment!
Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 3907 posts, RR: 78 Reply 61, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 47758 times:
It is indeed confirmed to have crashed now, and I am willing to bet quite a bit of money that the Adam Air management - or at least the ones that are in the country - are strategizing at the moment about how this crash can be blamed on someone or something without taking any resposibility. I'm guessing that the weather will be an easy way out.
Need it be said, that, although the weather was probably less than conducive, several other aircraft were in the air at the very same time in the very same area. As a matter of fact, our Garuda flight GA604 was on its way back from Manado to Makassar around the exact same time.
I am not speculating about any liabilities in this disaster, but it is clear that Adam Air is gearing up to deny any responsibility, already waving around spotless maintenance records all over television.
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 4546 posts, RR: 60 Reply 62, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 47329 times:
And now... the expected..
From Detik.com
Adam Air Manado silent, families angry...
Over 50 relatives of passengers of KI574 congregated infront of Adam Air ticketing office.
6 employees were in front of their computers and appeared to be working but refused to communicate with the families.
"Adam Air shouldn't ignore the situation!" shouted one man and followed by others.
They demanded that Adam Air provide updates on the latest situation. They want the airline officials to provide the list of passengers.
----
Reports from other sources have said that all other Adam Air Ticket Offices have closed and all the staff went home early.
Relatives of the pax in Manado found out from the news, when they went to the airport theyonly saw that the flight was cancelled. Earlier, relatives of pax in Surabaya were told that the flight was delayed... again, they found out from the news....
Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 4546 posts, RR: 60 Reply 63, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 47155 times:
HB-IWC,
Well, unfortunately the public will just buy it...
Most likely, there is a dispatch/maitnenance problem that caused the airplane to be in the situation in the first place (like running into a CB in a white out!)
Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 3907 posts, RR: 78 Reply 64, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 47061 times:
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 63): Reports from other sources have said that all other Adam Air Ticket Offices have closed and all the staff went home early
Here is Soekarno Hatta, the ticketing and luggage offices have quickly closed indeed, and there is minimal Adam Air staff still on duty air side for the remaining - delayed - DPS arrivals. Also, air crew is quietly leaving the airport. It seems the airline has gone into complete radio silence. As said above, even in this time of disaster, they have no idea how to run an airline.
Zeke From Hong Kong SAR, PRC, joined Dec 2006, 4790 posts, RR: 65 Reply 65, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 46909 times:
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 61): I'm shaking my head! If I saw the registrations correctly, yesterday, -KKW was parked and NOT FLYING... I think it was parked in Remote D Apron! All day! Yes, it's empty alright, coz no flight crew touched the damn plane!
What was the registration that had its problems departing CGK ?
Seem to remember the list of deferred defects in the fleet that came out after that incident, made hairs on the back of my neck stand up.
Cathay Pacific wins Airline of the Year 2009 Award. Great service. Great people. Great fares.
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 3907 posts, RR: 78 Reply 68, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 46392 times:
Quoting Zeke (Reply 66): What was the registration that had its problems departing CGK ?
I'd be surprised if there was a single Adam frame which hasn't been previously involved in some hairy incident. Just a couple of days ago, another one veered off the runway upon landing in Medan with a couple of burst tires. Truth be told, no all of these incidents are entirely on Adam's clock. The shabby infrastructure in this country is a source of ever lasting problems as well.
Alessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 70, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 45930 times:
Quoting Pilotdude09 (Reply 59): Reading Mandala's thread about Adam Air, it shows how corrupt Indonesia is, and how discraceful the airline industry is over there, and major western airlines want to send their maintanace over there? i would never ever set foo on any aircraft that is maintined in Indonesia.
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 4546 posts, RR: 60 Reply 71, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 46136 times:
Zeke,
That was PK-KKE... IRS problem, not lost... but the problem was a huge one that even the crew only realised when they were due to descend to UPG, they couldn't pick up MKS VOR...
Mika,
KKU? A few engine problems I think... nothing that comes to mind otherwise. Engine starter problems, and a few high-EGT instances.
Crash site not yet confirmed. Air Force will send 2 helicopters to search the ELT signal locations that are over land and 1 732 Surveiller for the sea in the morning.
Mandala499
[Edited 2007-01-01 19:14:17]
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
PanAmOldDC8 From Barbados, joined Dec 2006, 960 posts, RR: 2 Reply 72, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 45601 times:
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 61): shall be imposing a ban on Adam Air on my company's travel list tomorrow (I dun care what my CEO says!), and put up a pretty face at a travel agent's tomorrow who's asked me to talk about this accident... now that's something I'm trying to avoid at the moment!
Good for you I am sure all A. Netters are behind you on this one. It is a long time that I have seen someone stand up for their principles. It takes people like you to bring about the changes for people who don't know the truth. Good luck on this one
YYZUla From Poland, joined Feb 2004, 73 posts, RR: 0 Reply 74, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 44133 times:
Having recently read a lot about the safety records of many Indonesian airlines this accident doesn't surprise. I hope, but I strongly doubt it, that maybe finally something will be done to improve the current situation.
My thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families.
RiddlePilot215 From United States, joined Oct 2003, 300 posts, RR: 0 Reply 75, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week ago) and read 41733 times:
Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 40): The are getting some more new A320's so maybe they will turn the corner with the help from Airbus and lessors.
New airplanes won't change crap....It's the management and legislators that HAVE to change in order for these kind of problems to go away.
These are the moments that I HATE aviation....All that hard work that thousands have sacrificed to prove air travel, all for it to be taken down by a few bureaucratic idiots who have absolutely no concept of safety.
My heart goes out to the hundreds of innocent people affected by this tragedy. My only hope like what Cedarjet mentioned, is that the idiots responsible get their a**** handed to them.
God is good, all the time. All the time, God is good.
Bh4007 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 239 posts, RR: 0 Reply 76, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week ago) and read 41614 times:
If it is true that it ran out of fuel - how is that possible in this day&age with a reasonably modern aircraft? There would have been many warnings for the pilots
for definite. A mystery.
It's airlines like these that give aviation a bad name. It's not fair for the other 99.9% of airlines that do care about safety and have impeccable records.
Jetdeltamsy From United States, joined Nov 2000, 2965 posts, RR: 11 Reply 78, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 39869 times:
Quoting Jasond (Reply 3): That was unfair, I was NOT at all doubting the poster especially given the subject matter, I was simply trying to obtain a link, you may apologise whenever you are ready
Oh! Grow up.
Ugh.
You made a reasonable inquiry. Who cares what the guy thinks about your post?
Worked for too many airlines to list. Banktupcy after bankruptcy after bankruptcy.
Quoting Mandala499: But Adam needs to have a relook at their maintenance and dispatch practices/policies... otherwise a smoking hole in the ground won't be too far off unfortunately... then no one will want a stake in it...
Unfortunately, sir, you called it exactly. I read some more of your comments about AdamAir and it is a disgrace, and it sounds like this sort of accident was just waiting to happen. How awful!
BMIFlyer From United Kingdom (England), joined Feb 2004, 8170 posts, RR: 71 Reply 85, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 36426 times:
JetJeanes From United States, joined Oct 2004, 1288 posts, RR: 0 Reply 90, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 34428 times:
They have really had a rash of bad luck over there with aircraft in the last few years. Hopefully a survivor can shed some light on what caused the plane to go from 30k to the ground..Pray for all the victims and their familys
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 3907 posts, RR: 78 Reply 91, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 34030 times:
Here at Jakarta's Soekarno Hatta International airport, Adam Air operations have meanwhile resumed with the airline's ticketing and check in desks guarded by an abundance of security guards and the press being kept at a distance. The airline's senior management has yet to come out in person and has restricted itself to a short statement that the wreckage of the aircraft has been found. The Indonesian ministry of Transportation and Communication is confirming that 90 people have died in this calamity and that 12 have survived and were being taken care off in a nearby village. Among the passengers were 3 non-Indonesians, all of them Americans, but their fate is as yet unknown.
LTBEWR From United States, joined Jan 2004, 9365 posts, RR: 7 Reply 93, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 32171 times:
With the serious safety issues that Adam Air apparently has and suggested by this accident, what can be done to either put them out of business or to limit their access until a better determination of the cause of this accident?
Could credit card company associations (Visa, Master Card, AMEX) suspend the use of credit cards with their name on them by issuing banks? Could other countries ban flights to them from Indonesia (like the EC Blacklist?) Could Boeing, and other critical parts vendors be told not to sell to Adam Air until further notice? To me, some type of 3rd party action has to take place immediately to deal with the bad history of this airline.
Jetfuel From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 922 posts, RR: 0 Reply 94, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 31991 times:
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 98): what can be done to either put them out of business or to limit their access until a better determination of the cause of this accident
An airlines' own safety record is as good a message to passengers as anything HOWEVER in a country known for being corrupt it's even hard to get regulatory bodies to act. Somehow it's far to easy to just start up an airline when you feel like it
Go back a decade or so and it was commuter airlines popping up with the likes of PA31 and other piston planes that were the problem. Now it's all too easy to get hold of a used jet and start up
Jasond From Australia, joined Jul 2009, 13 posts, RR: 0 Reply 95, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 31356 times:
Quoting Jetfuel (Reply 99): Somehow it's far to easy to just start up an airline when you feel like it
Well I would certainly agree with that. First off though I will wait (and suggest others do likewise) for the official cause of this awful accident. Not withstanding Adam's 'reputation' this could be entirely weather related so I will wait and see for the outcome of the investigation. That said everytime I do make a negative comment about travelling on LCC's the constant response I get (here and elsewhere) is that passengers don't care about the airline, just the fare. I take the opposite view, I think about the airline first, then the fare.
RiddlePilot215 From United States, joined Oct 2003, 300 posts, RR: 0 Reply 96, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 31227 times:
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 98): With the serious safety issues that Adam Air apparently has and suggested by this accident, what can be done to either put them out of business or to limit their access until a better determination of the cause of this accident?
Could credit card company associations (Visa, Master Card, AMEX) suspend the use of credit cards with their name on them by issuing banks? Could other countries ban flights to them from Indonesia (like the EC Blacklist?) Could Boeing, and other critical parts vendors be told not to sell to Adam Air until further notice? To me, some type of 3rd party action has to take place immediately to deal with the bad history of this airline.
I think you missed a BIGGIE here...and this is why I'm so skeptical of anything actually happening as a result. This is off of the CNN website, and here is my fair use excerpt...
Quote: Adam Air, which began operations in 2003, was founded by Agung Laksono, the speaker of Indonesia's house of representatives and the company's chairman.
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 3907 posts, RR: 78 Reply 99, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 29880 times:
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 98): what can be done to either put them out of business or to limit their access until a better determination of the cause of this accident?
I know of travel agents here in Jakarta that have been advising their passengers against buying Adam Air tickets and have been doing so for quite a while, in tempore non suspecto. There are even a few brave agents that have stopped selling Adam Air altogether.
These boycotts have not come overnight. Adam Air does not only have a rickety reputation when it comes to safety and maintenance, as illustrated not only by yesterday's disaster but also by a string of published and unpublished incidents in the past, but it also has the questionable honor of interpreting its own conditions of carriage very imaginatively, to use the understatement of the year.
Unannounced cancellations and unexplained schedule changes, denied boardings for no other reason than overbooking yet explained as late check in, and outright cheating passengers have in the recent past been the order of he day with this airline. The company's employees are not faring much better - employee intimidation and bending the rules seem to happen all too often -, but in a country with an astronomical unemployment rate, nobody from the inside dares to speak up.
Add to all of these malpractices the fact that the company was founded and is still largely owned by the Speaker of the Indonesian House of Representatives, who is the company Chairman and who in the past has not shied away from using his political and government connections to benefit Adam Air - as with the questionable awarding of traffic rights for Jakarta Singapore to Adam -, and it is not difficult to perceive that Adam Air is operating in very favorable conditions that allow it to act with virtual impunity. Indonesia, is, after all, consistently ranking among the world's most corrupt nations. Everything comes at a price here, and everything can be bought, so too airworthiness certificates and all kinds of licenses.
I do not for a moment believe that yesterday's crash will improve safety and security standards in Indonesian domestic aviation. Too many people stand too much to lose here and some of the airlines with the shadiest reputations are backed by powerful government figures. The beleaguered Indonesian air passenger is paying the ultimate price of all of these malfeasances, although that same passenger does not walk away freely either. There are still alternative options which allow for more trustworthy air travel than the likes of Adam Air.
CX777Fan From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 257 posts, RR: 0 Reply 101, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 29460 times:
How realistic is this speculation about weather causing the accident? If the aircraft was at FL35 - which is where a previous poster mentioned Singapore control last hear contact - how could storms/turbulance, no matter how severe, cause a plane to hit a mountain many thousands of feet below? Have there been any similar past incidents of a plane at cruising altitude hitting terrain as a result of bad weather?
Bh4007 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 239 posts, RR: 0 Reply 102, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 28976 times:
Quoting Mika (Reply 105): how is Garuda compared to european or US legacy carriers?
I want to tell you that they are comparable but they're not; I count 17 accidents, only 3 of them without fatalities - in the last 56 years. Pretty poor considering they only have a fleet of about 45 aircraft.
Yukimizake From Japan, joined Mar 2004, 528 posts, RR: 0 Reply 103, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 28533 times:
From FL350 into mountainous terrain during bad weather and there are survivors?, I do hope the report of there being survivors is true, it just seems unlikely.
'Opfer müssen gebracht werden (Sacrifices must be made)' - Otto Lilienthal
Quote: "The location has not been found. We apologize that the news that we conveyed was not true," said First Air Marshal Eddy Suyanto, commander of Hasanuddin air base in Makassar.
PanAmOldDC8 From Barbados, joined Dec 2006, 960 posts, RR: 2 Reply 105, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 27619 times:
Quoting Salina Chan (Reply 105): Reuters is now reporting that the crash site has not been found and that other reports were in error.
This is sad for the loved ones. It is not fair to put out press releases that are incorrect. I have just sent and e-mail to IATA asking them to use their weight in this investigation and if necessary to have their license pulled, I know that it will not make much of a difference, but it is worth a try. I shall also be calling the YUL office of IATA later today and will speak with an offical there. Will let you know the outcome
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 3907 posts, RR: 78 Reply 106, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 27401 times:
Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Reply 106): I have just sent and e-mail to IATA asking them to use their weight in this investigation and if necessary to have their license pulled
Seeing as how Adam Air is not a member of IATA, that will indeed not make much of a difference. The only one capable of rescinding the license is the issuing authority, which is the Indonesian Government. Good luck trying to convince them.
This whole episode is turning out to be yet another installment of ludicrous mismanagement and incompetence of all parties involved, and that very much includes the supervising authorities. The local TV has been showing one report after the other of government officials involved in the ongoing investigation blatantly contradicting one another. The airline meanwhile has delayed several times, for no apparent reason, the flights that were supposed to take the victims of those on board to Makassar. The airline's management is nowhere to be seen.
As it goes, I wouldn't be surpised at all if it turns out that the passenger manifest is completely inaccurate as well. Remember that this is a domestic flight, and there is no control of identification whatsoever for passengers of domestic flights in this country.
PanAmOldDC8 From Barbados, joined Dec 2006, 960 posts, RR: 2 Reply 108, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 27217 times:
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 107): Seeing as how Adam Air is not a member of IATA, that will indeed not make much of a difference. The only one capable of rescinding the license is the issuing authority, which is the Indonesian Government. Good luck trying to convince them.
Thanks for that reply and I really appreciate it. But you know the old saying "you can but try". Any links to the Singapore Ministry of Aviation?I am very good at plumeling that sort of organisation, having had to do it many times
Salina Chan From Singapore, joined Jul 2001, 123 posts, RR: 4 Reply 109, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 27182 times:
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 107): The only one capable of rescinding the license is the issuing authority, which is the Indonesian Government. Good luck trying to convince them.
Well, they are flying into Changi, so i have emailed our government as to how our MoT is ensuring that carriers comming to SIN are safe, taking into account the less than glamorous history of Adam Air.....guess it wont do much good either, but maybe put them on a blacklist like the Europeans have, although then the Indonesian Gov't will probably complain again and slow down SIA flights or something....international relations in southeast Asia are such a pain....
Salina Chan From Singapore, joined Jul 2001, 123 posts, RR: 4 Reply 110, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 27036 times:
Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Reply 109): Any links to the Singapore Ministry of Aviation?I am very good at plumeling that sort of organisation, having had to do it many times
PanAmOldDC8: It's the Ministry of Transportation that has an air division, located at http://www.mot.gov.sg
However, here is a list of the officials at the Air Transport Divison
Title, Name, Phone, email (country code for Singapore is 65)
Director SOH Poh Theen
63757714 soh_poh_theen@mot.gov.sg
Personal Assistant to Director Ms Shirley GOH
63757714 shirley_goh@mot.gov.sg
Acting Deputy Director TNG Wei Chien
63752532 tng_wei_chien@mot.gov.sg
Senior Asst Director Ms Penny NG Lee Yong
63757036 penny_ng@mot.gov.sg
Asst Director Ms Jean HUNG
63757038 jean_hung@mot.gov.sg
Asst Director YUEN De Zhao
63757717 yuen_de_zhao@mot.gov.sg
Asst Director Eugene TAN
63752507 eugene_tan@mot.gov.sg
Policy Assistant (Air) Thomas TAN
63757732 thomas_tan@mot.gov.sg
CX flyboy From Hong Kong SAR, PRC, joined Dec 1999, 5583 posts, RR: 61 Reply 112, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 26903 times:
How many Indonesian carriers are in IATA? I ask because IATA has a safety audit programme which is now compulsory and the airlines must be subjected to this and also follow up on any recommendations. I bet any of these audits would reveal a lot!
Thanks for that. I am going to start right now sending off e-mails until they are sick of me and I get some sort of reply back from them. I don't care if they give me some cock and bull story but will keep at it until some one in charge speaks to me. I will not let innocent people go to their deaths with out someone being held to account
Salina Chan From Singapore, joined Jul 2001, 123 posts, RR: 4 Reply 114, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 26782 times:
Quoting Zeke (Reply 112): With any reaction by CAAS it would be seen as a direct attack on the Indonesian government given the involvement of Agung Laksono in the airline.
Indeed...we all still remember the fallout from SQ006 and how ugly that turned out at times....and that was Taiwan and not Indonesia.....with the latter, things would probably go downhill faster and further...
Bh4007 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 239 posts, RR: 0 Reply 115, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 26701 times:
Quoting Alessandro (Reply 108): Bh4007, you have to take in consider the environment they operate in.
I'm saying that in comparison to US/EU carriers, the airline is a lot less safe. However, Garuda in comparison to say, Adam, they are comparatively much, much safer.
It all depends on what context you put these things in
I have sent e-mails to all on the list and have sent one to the Ambassador in Canada, and have requested a time that I can call and speak to him. Will keep trying until I get some answers
Baroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 10690 posts, RR: 51 Reply 118, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 26112 times:
Quoting Scorpio (Reply 116): The screw-ups and confusion seem to continue: now the military denies the wreckage has been found, and says the story of the 12 survivors is wrong...
ANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 119, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 26054 times:
Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Reply 105): This is sad for the loved ones. It is not fair to put out press releases that are incorrect. I have just sent and e-mail to IATA asking them to use their weight in this investigation and if necessary to have their license pulled, I know that it will not make much of a difference, but it is worth a try. I shall also be calling the YUL office of IATA later today and will speak with an offical there. Will let you know the outcome
You may be confusing IATA and ICAO. IATA is the trade association of airlines - ICAO is the UN body responsible for aviation, including safety.
Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 112): How many Indonesian carriers are in IATA? I ask because IATA has a safety audit programme which is now compulsory and the airlines must be subjected to this and also follow up on any recommendations. I bet any of these audits would reveal a lot!
Indeed all IATA members, as of 1/1/07 need to be in the IOSA programme. These audits are not intended to 'reveal a lot' - such results are not made public for obvious reasons - but to ensure the airline meets the standards, and if not, take the necessary steps to reach them. Not one airline has failed IOSA, but a few - including some that would surprise you, have had to be tested a few times.
Some governments (including Singapore) now require their airlines to pass IOSA before being issued an AOL. What they need to do is to require this of foreign airlines serving their countries.
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 4546 posts, RR: 60 Reply 120, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 26090 times:
Quote: If it is true that it ran out of fuel - how is that possible in this day&age with a reasonably modern aircraft? There would have been many warnings for the pilots for definite. A mystery.
Which can be easily solved... it's called Navigational Error. See below...
Quote: Unfortunately, sir, you called it exactly. I read some more of your comments about AdamAir and it is a disgrace, and it sounds like this sort of accident was just waiting to happen. How awful!
It is something I myself am not proud of... in fact, I feel sick at the moment!
Quote: Thats pretty shocking....to just post it up like that so quickly...
It was already released last night!
Location now confirmed NOT FOUND.
Quote: How many Indonesian carriers are in IATA? I ask because IATA has a safety audit programme which is now compulsory and the airlines must be subjected to this and also follow up on any recommendations. I bet any of these audits would reveal a lot!
And how many of these audits have been dismissed locally as "conspiracy" against Indonesia's commercial interests? Countless... I remember a safety audit by foreign cargo operator on another Indonesian carrier, they failed the audit... and then some nasty emails started going around talking about a load of cr4p about the findings being totally false, economic conspiracy, and a load more lies.
Now back to the accident. I suspicions last night that they were looking in the wrong area now could be, though ashamedly correct... The only drawback to the theory is the report of the location on where the ELT beacon transmissions being received.
Now, after discussions with several pilots, flying from Surabaya to Manado, one would normally file for airway W32... which brings you from Surabaya VOR, to Makassar VOR, then to Manado VOR... But... Normally, pilots would request or ATC would give a shortcut from ENDOG (05-52.6S 117-09.6E) direct to Manado, or the two penultimate waypoints on the route (TAPIR or LUANG).
This should give you a track of 045 out of ENDOG (my chart's out of date)... However, that picture, by looking at the track where it crosses the CTAs, would appear to be on a 038 track out of ENDOG... Now this could be due to weather deviation, which if true, would add to more mystery as to the aircraft's whereabouts because it would have been able to then track direct to Manado after clearing the weather.
HOWEVER, what if the track heading difference was not due to weather deviation... a Navigation error, a repeat of the Tambolaka Incident by PK-KKE earlier last year.
The Tambolaka incident was a case where the IRS gave erroneous readings without raising the alarm to the pilot, which then guided the aircraft astray forcing the emergency landings. Adam Air and in particular PK-KKE has a history of "bad IRS"... poor maintenance of those units have been cited as the problem.
The Tambolaka incident is only possible if the pilots did not tune or allow the radios to autotune to VORs along the route. This would expose the aircraft to IRS errors on a remote area.
Coming back to the current accident, a track of 038 would quickly bring them out of radar coverage at Makassar, and also VOR coverage. Now a correct 045 track, once out of range from Makassar VOR would not pick Manado VOR until within 100NM nor would they detect Gorontalo VOR until about 100NM south of Gorontalo. This info is based on talking to a pilot who used to and one who still fly the route (they're not with Adam Air).
A 038 track from ENDOG would never bring them anywhere in range of Gorontalo or Manado VORs... and the only VOR that came within range is Palu... but Palu's range eastbound isn't too good either, limited to 80NM or so thanks to the mountains, and if you're on W32, you would not be able to pick up Palu VOR.
Now some flight crew still have the habit of not tuning their VORs to enroute facilities or allow their NAVs to autotune... One of the pilots I talked to who fly the 734 admits to occassionally forget tuning the VORs to enroute facilities, or know that his colleague has forgotten about it too. And when they do tune in, they never tune into Palu VOR. With a "bad IRS", this increases risk of straying from the intended route as there would be no FMC position corrections being put in and the sole positioning info would be from the IRUs which are faulty.
And on the communications front, such a track would put them out of range of Makassar Center and Manado Approach... and they possibly had no idea they were close to Palu... Despite having HF frequencies available, the case of PK-KKE showed no information/record that the pilots ever contacted the correct HF radio when they realised they were lost. In the case of KKW, this is again, a possibility...
If the aircraft had indeed made an error track of 038 instead of 045 without intention, the aircraft couldn't have tuned into Makassar VOR when they left ENDOG... a possible reason for this was that the crew didn't tune into it because ENDOG is at the edge of coverage for Makassar VOR, which they were going to by pass by some distance anyways.
From what I heard from friends, Capt. Widodo is a good captain, and I could be flamed for suggesting that this was a inertial nav error due to not tuning into VORs... but again, no one expected a pilot from the DGAC (Indo CAA) making that mistake while on KKE...
If the above could happen, then, I fear, that the search is totally in the wrong area. Following the example of the KKE incident, no one was aware of the problem until they descended. Now, in the case of KKW yesterday, had that error track 038 been taken, the top of descent point would have been past the northern coastline of Sulawesi, with nothing but sea until the Philippines... my greatest fear is that this has happened, and when they descended, they saw nothing but water (which, if on W32, you may see nothign but water at the initial top of descent for a few mins under normal circumstances)... Given the shape of Sulawesi, they may have been lead to believe that they descended early, and decided to press on for a few more miles, which by then would ensure that the northern coast of Sulawesi was beyond the horizon behind them... leaving them no positional reference at all!
God I pray I'm wrong and that they could be found soon! The crew on the flight are known to my friends and colleagues and are good people. I had to comfort a friend who panicked because one of the F/As was his good friend.
God Bless Them!
Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
NIKV69 From United States, joined Jan 2004, 8379 posts, RR: 56 Reply 121, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 25968 times:
Wow this is getting bad, those poor famalies. You first give them some hope and now this? Wow, somebody should get a "F" in how to give press reports of a plane crash over there.
Zvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10189 posts, RR: 71 Reply 122, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 25832 times:
Quoting ANother (Reply 119): Some governments (including Singapore) now require their airlines to pass IOSA before being issued an AOL. What they need to do is to require this of foreign airlines serving their countries.
This is probably the best suggestion I've seen so far in this thread. Singapore and others could institute such a rule while minimizing any perception that it is directed to any one particular carrier or country. It would contribute significantly to safety.
Hmmmm... From Canada, joined May 1999, 2083 posts, RR: 9 Reply 123, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 25695 times:
How is it that someone could fabricate a report that the crash site was found, then to add detail to that, fabricate the detail that 12 people were found alive?
Who does this? How could this be just an error? Does the Indonesian government hire screenwriters to deliver information?
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 3907 posts, RR: 78 Reply 125, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 25378 times:
Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 112): How many Indonesian carriers are in IATA?
As far as I know there are just two: state-owned Garuda Indonesia and Merpati Nusantara Airlines. None of the others, in their current state could ever come up to any of the standards required for IATA membership.
Quoting Baroque (Reply 118): It looks as if chaos reigns supreme.
And that is in the best tradition of this country, whether it concerns a tsunami in Aceh, an earthquake in Jogjakarta, an unceasing mudflow in Eastern Java, the yearly returning forest fires causing smog over the entire region, the capsizing of a ferry carrying over 600 people or an air disaster like the one yesterday. Over and over again, the Indonesian government at large shows itself incapable of dealing with just about any crisis.
After 4 years of working in the airline industry in this country, I cannot come to any other conclusion than that the institutions that govern this country are no more than a waste of time, space and valuable resources, because the people that are supposed to take care of the smooth running of those institutions are interested in but one thing: their own bank account.
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 120): And how many of these audits have been dismissed locally as "conspiracy" against Indonesia's commercial interests?
That is, of course, the perpetual bottom line of the Indonesian government. As an expat in the Indonesian airline industry, I have plenty of experience with the outright xenophobic attitude of anything that even remotely touches the government. Foreigners are bad and are just here with the one goal of destroying Indonesian interests. Therefore they should be ripped of whenever and wherever possible.
There is no way that Indonesia will allow a serious audit of its civil aviation industry, including the government supervisory institutions, to take place. It would reveal the prolonged and blatant malfeasance that has already cost many, many lives, and it would, most of all allay the vested interests of the powers that be.
Never, ever, will we know the real facts behind yesterday's calamity, just like we will never, ever fathom the truth behind the fatal crashes of a Lion Air MD82 in Solo, Central Java and a Mandala B732 in Medan, North Sumatra. A objective and in depth report of both of those crashed would indeed reveal not only the shortcomings of the airlines involved, both of them well connected in government and military circles, but it would also show the blatant shortcomings of just about every government agency involved in the organization and supervision of the Indonesian aviation industry.
Tonight, as the search goes on for the missing aircraft and its passengers, I am pretty sure that many of those connected to or in charge of organizations related to the local airline industry could not care less about the fate of the aircraft and its passengers and crew, as they are likely too busy in covering up any shortcomings on their own behalf and securing their positions for the future.
Such is that state of the Indonesian civial aviation scene and its surroundings, where, now more than ever, money talks...
Zeke From Hong Kong SAR, PRC, joined Dec 2006, 4790 posts, RR: 65 Reply 127, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 25232 times:
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 125): As far as I know there are just two: state-owned Garuda Indonesia and Merpati Nusantara Airlines. None of the others, in their current state could ever come up to any of the standards required for IATA membership.
A few years back QF looked at buying Adam Air. They sent an auditor to have a look at the operation, needless to say QF found more pressing investments to make at the time and could not complete the deal to the disappointment of Adam Air.
Cathay Pacific wins Airline of the Year 2009 Award. Great service. Great people. Great fares.
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 4546 posts, RR: 60 Reply 129, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 25248 times:
Quote: A few years back QF looked at buying Adam Air. They sent an auditor to have a look at the operation, needless to say QF found more pressing investments to make at the time and could not complete the deal to the disappointment of Adam Air.
Yet they announced the possibility regardless of QF's finding, possibly breaching ASIC rules had it gone through.
Quote: Never, ever, will we know the real facts behind yesterday's calamity, just like we will never, ever fathom the truth behind the fatal crashes of a Lion Air MD82 in Solo, Central Java and a Mandala B732 in Medan, North Sumatra.
Well, the truth is rumoured to be known but not released for reasons we know of...
Looks like some in the NTSC is out of ideas... one has read the above theory and has asked for an explanation... I have to write this VERY CAREFULLY.
Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
I just joined A.net, mainly because of this incident.
Welcome to A.net.
As of your second line............
Lets just say that having in mind and according to their previous practices lets one to dough about that ..........at least to that extent.
Don't spend your money on airlines that don't respect your business.
Baroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 10690 posts, RR: 51 Reply 133, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 24323 times:
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 125): After 4 years of working in the airline industry in this country, I cannot come to any other conclusion than that the institutions that govern this country are no more than a waste of time, space and valuable resources, because the people that are supposed to take care of the smooth running of those institutions are interested in but one thing: their own bank account.
The xenophobia is a problem but to some extent can be overcome. I spent many years trying to improve technical performance in one of the ministries through an aid program. There have been some effects, but it would need to be pursued for another generation and alas after about 12 years, GoA altered focus to a more general (and probably less effective) program. And alas, they did that to keep Universities in Australia happy.
However, you are right, the bank account problem is difficult (although not entirely impossible) to overcome.
The incorrect reporting in this case seems to be a classic but, just possibly, it is so awful this time that it might lead to some reforms. I think the bureaucracy is more susceptible to change now than in Suharto's days.
Stargazer From Canada, joined Sep 2006, 3 posts, RR: 0 Reply 135, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 24077 times:
Ok, just saw this on PPrune:
Jakarta Daily Newspaper KOMPASS reports that the Adamair flight landed safely in Juanda (Surabaya) after experiencing heavy weather and NORDO near Manado. How the heck he made it back to SBR without Ujung or Jakarta seeing him, I'll never know.
Many red faces in the news world tonight. Thankfully no blood!
Wonder where they came up with 12 survivors???? All safe on ground in Surabaya (unless they go downtown)!
It is unbelievable! They are totally out of control with the situation. I pity the families waiting to hear about the state of their loved ones. At least with the report of 12 survivours there was some hope for them.
UK_Dispatcher From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2001, 2231 posts, RR: 32 Reply 139, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 23918 times:
Quoting Stargazer (Reply 135): Jakarta Daily Newspaper KOMPASS reports that the Adamair flight landed safely in Juanda (Surabaya) after experiencing heavy weather and NORDO near Manado. How the heck he made it back to SBR without Ujung or Jakarta seeing him, I'll never know.
Many red faces in the news world tonight. Thankfully no blood!
How does an aircraft go 'missing' for 24 hours and no one know it is sitting at an airport. I think we would all like to believe this, but.... no way
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 4546 posts, RR: 60 Reply 143, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 23786 times:
That cannot be. As of 4hrs ago, the NTSC is still looking for the aircraft. Even Adam Air crew haven't heard anything...
The misinfo/disinfo surrounding this is making it difficult for everyone... There have been wild claims by "experts" who can be suspected of being paid to undertake the wild goose chase campaign!... How else to explain these wild and crazy stories?
Sickening!
Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
Mandala499 - stay safe - do not put yourself in a difficult position. It is obvious that you only want the state of Indonesian aviation to get better, but do not put yourself at risk in talking to us.
Sheraboam From United States, joined Aug 2005, 17 posts, RR: 1 Reply 147, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 23423 times:
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 143): That cannot be. As of 4hrs ago, the NTSC is still looking for the aircraft. Even Adam Air crew haven't heard anything...
The misinfo/disinfo surrounding this is making it difficult for everyone... There have been wild claims by "experts" who can be suspected of being paid to undertake the wild goose chase campaign!... How else to explain these wild and crazy stories?
Sickening!
Mandala499
My Heart goes out to these families waiting. I can't even begin to imagine the anguish and torment they must be feeling. Your right Mandala, it is nothing less than sickening.
Richierich From United States, joined Nov 2000, 3247 posts, RR: 8 Reply 148, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 23277 times:
Quoting UK_Dispatcher (Reply 139): How does an aircraft go 'missing' for 24 hours and no one know it is sitting at an airport. I think we would all like to believe this, but.... no way
One hour, maybe. Two hours, possibly.
But 24+ hours? As you said, no way. It is very very sad but this plane crashed. It is not possible to know if anybody survived but an airliner crashing in remote jungles does not sound good for anybody's chances.
May I be the first to say RIP to the victims of this flight. If I am wrong, that will be a good thing.
PanAmOldDC8 From Barbados, joined Dec 2006, 960 posts, RR: 2 Reply 149, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 23216 times:
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 129): Looks like some in the NTSC is out of ideas... one has read the above theory and has asked for an explanation... I have to write this VERY CAREFULLY.
BE CAREFUL!!!!!!!!!!. I have just got an e-mail back from your MOT and have been advised that the a/c has not been found and they will advise me at a later date, exactly what that means is your guess as well as mine. I spoke to the Deputy Ambassador this afternoon and basically I was told it was none of my business, to which I replied that it is time you guys sort out the mess you have over there in aviation, the phone was hung up in my ear. But don't worry I will try again in a couple of days. Let you know how I do
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 4546 posts, RR: 60 Reply 151, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days ago) and read 23070 times:
Guys,
The info on the good and the bad of Adam Air is not a tightly held secret, but so far no one has gone full out to the media yet, and I have no intention of doing so. The details of the theory have been posted here, and it is just a theory. The NTSC has only asked to see what the theory is to see if they've been looking at the wrong place, one member has asked me to put that possibility, solely for the purpose of finding the wreckage. They know about Adam Air's "adventures" with the IRS... They know all the stuff that goes on, it's not my place to be involved on that part... I'm not qualified any further than to provide speculation.
Thanks for the supporting comments that have been given through various channels. I have a suitcase ready anyways.
Dtwclipper & Richierich,
The area only has 1 radar, which is in Makassar, and it only goes to about 100 - 150NM. Now the last radar contact was at 340@100NM... so, there is a possibility that it was still flying and OK when it left radar coverage area...
Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
Richierich From United States, joined Nov 2000, 3247 posts, RR: 8 Reply 152, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days ago) and read 22711 times:
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 146): This all just seems nuts to me. How can you loose a 737 for over 48 hours?
It took them a while to find the wreckage of the Gol aircraft, if you recall, and they had a pretty good idea where to look for that one.
There was also a small Learjet that went missing for over a year in New Hampshire just a few years ago. While some parts of NH and VT in the USA are 'rural', calling them remote might be a stretch!
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 151): The area only has 1 radar, which is in Makassar, and it only goes to about 100 - 150NM. Now the last radar contact was at 340@100NM... so, there is a possibility that it was still flying and OK when it left radar coverage area...
I do not doubt your knowledge or accuracy of the radar coverage in this area. But the bottom line is that a plane went missing and has yet to show up at its intended destination. This is not good. We can all hold out hope until we hear the worst, but this doesn't sound like it will end well.
Spacecadet From United States, joined Sep 2001, 2057 posts, RR: 19 Reply 153, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days ago) and read 22657 times:
Quoting Richierich (Reply 152): There was also a small Learjet that went missing for over a year in New Hampshire just a few years ago. While some parts of NH and VT in the USA are 'rural', calling them remote might be a stretch!
Parts of NH are pretty remote. Mount Washington is also one of the coldest, windiest places on the planet. I don't know if that's the area where that Lear crashed or not. But that's definitely the type of area where I'd think any search would be a long, slow slog. So it's not surprising to me that a plane could go missing for 48 hours almost anywhere in the world.
By the way, just in case the photo you get on the site above isn't convincing (and I didn't realize it was a random image), maybe this view will be: http://www.mountwashington.org/weather/cam/deck/
The weather may change by the time you look at it, but right now the visibility is basically zero. So, yeah, I can see how it would be possible for a plane to go missing in certain conditions and in certain places.
[Edited 2007-01-02 22:10:33]
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
Richierich From United States, joined Nov 2000, 3247 posts, RR: 8 Reply 154, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 22518 times:
Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 153): Parts of NH are pretty remote. Mount Washington is also one of the coldest, windiest places on the planet. I don't know if that's the area where that Lear crashed or not. But that's definitely the type of area where I'd think any search would be a long, slow slog. So it's not surprising to me that a plane could go missing for 48 hours almost anywhere in the world.
That's all very nice and such. I've been to the top of Mt. Washington several times. You can drive up it. While there is definitely a lot of difficult terrain, we are talking about an airplane here, not a missing person or something that can easily be hidden from view.
Not to deviate any further from the subject, but the search for this Learjet was in the Lebanon area, at least 50 miles from the Presidential Mountains. As I said, it is rural, not remote. They did find it, eventually, but I found it quite astonishing that it took over a year in modern times with dozens of volunteers searching by air and by foot.
Losing a 737 is a little bit different but clearly the area they are searching has very different geography than that of New Hampshire. Its ashame that it is taking so long, on the remote chance that there are survivors who need urgent help.
ULMFlyer From Brazil, joined Sep 2006, 317 posts, RR: 1 Reply 155, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 22476 times:
Quoting Richierich (Reply 152):
It took them a while to find the wreckage of the Gol aircraft, if you recall, and they had a pretty good idea where to look for that one.
Not to mention that the Brazilian Air Force was employing EMB 145 RS/AGS aircraft with sigint sensors to pick up the ELT transmission and synthetic aperture radar to scourge the jungle through the night.
Does anyone know which SAR capabilities would be available in this case? Hopefully they can rely on more than Mark I eyeballs.
MGA From Nicaragua, joined Mar 2005, 726 posts, RR: 6 Reply 157, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 22286 times:
So whats the deal? the earlier reports that the wreckage was found and there were 12 survivors was crap??? I just read that on google news... Whats going on right now?
Springbok747 From Australia, joined Nov 2004, 3264 posts, RR: 18 Reply 158, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 22002 times:
Quoting MGA (Reply 157): So whats the deal? the earlier reports that the wreckage was found and there were 12 survivors was crap??? I just read that on google news... Whats going on right now?
Sheraboam From United States, joined Aug 2005, 17 posts, RR: 1 Reply 159, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 21899 times:
We were trained in the US to turn the flight locater on before a ditch or crash was located back galley right by F/A 3 , J/S now a big aircraft is missing, how many hours or day's now? I wont say RIP until that is confirmed , I hope they are found soon
Richierich From United States, joined Nov 2000, 3247 posts, RR: 8 Reply 162, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 21183 times:
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 161): Is this going to be the end of Adam Air?
According to the press, they don't seem to be handling this issue too well, but their hands may be tied when it comes to providing information (or what little of it there is). The press rarely puts airlines in good light when something tragic like this happens, especially when they are recent startups with dodgy reputations.
I'd say that if they can make it through the next 6 months, there is no reason to think they won't make it. When do the Airbii come? According to the Airbus press release, "Adam Air's A320s will be configured in a comfortable 180-seat layout with the biggest overhead bins and the most passenger space." Yeah, 180 seat A320s... real nice and comfortable.
AdamAir website contact is yohan_chris@adamair.co.id, TEL +62.216917418, FAX +62.216917422
The all important President doesn't seem to have an email address so those amongst us that can still write hand written letters can contact the president here http://www.presidensby.info/index.php/statik/kontak.html slow to open
Redaksi Situs Presiden Republik Indonesia Dr. H. Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono
Gedung Bina Graha Lt. 2
Jl. Veteran No, 16 Jakarta
Lets start letting these guys know that we are watchiing & the more countries the better. The BBC is no longer carrying this 'story'
Stirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 35 Reply 168, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 20161 times:
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 146): Next they are going to report that they have located Fred Noonan & Amelia Earhart!
....and DB Cooper.
But seriously, what a way to start off a new year.
This whole situation is truly incredible and wholy unbelievable.
The amount of information we "DO NOT KNOW" at this late stage past final contact.
I wonder how much "juice" will be spread around the Indonesian halls of government to make whatever really is found to be cause; reach the press as: "Weather related-at 34,000 feet. (Wasn't the great thing about jets being they could fly above the weather?)
Sometimes fantastic things must happen to produce fantastic change.
I can only hope that the maleficence displayed by Adam Air and the Indonesian government up to this point, is dealt with the extreme prejudice of justice.
Ptharris From United States, joined Dec 2005, 282 posts, RR: 7 Reply 170, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 19400 times:
Is there a lot of jungles there or something? I mean, unless it went into the water, how hard is it to spot a 737? It's not like a Honda Civic or something. I seem to remember I read somewhere that distress beacons went off? I suppose that was false too?
So, is the missing plane false as well? I mean, the spokesperson for Adam Air isn't going to come on the tube and say " Oh, it's not missing... we meant it was cancelled... sorry! Our newly appointed public relations officer Jimmy Hoffa will answer any of your questions."
Sarcasm aside, this has been a tragedy that just continues to go on from the missing aircraft to the piss-poor management of the issue at hand. May God bless those souls aboard and shall His hand be with them all and their familes.
Ugh.. it just turns my stomach...
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you.
Lostturttle From Bermuda, joined Dec 2006, 139 posts, RR: 0 Reply 172, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 19290 times:
Just woke up this morning and I guess their is no news, positive or ...........
A selection of headlines from a google search....
Health team sent to air crash site in Indonesia
People's Daily Online, China - 5 hours ago
Ledger Independent Indonesia Resumes Search for Adam Air Plane Amid Rough Weather
Bloomberg - 7 hours ago
CTV.ca Indonesian plane crash site not found: officials
CTV.ca, Canada - 6 hours ago
Adam Air 737 missing in Indonesia, more than 100 feared dead
ATWOnline, MD - 4 hours ago
Indonesia Resumes Search for Adam Air Plane Amid Rough Weather
Bloomberg - 7 hours ago
some quotes from the Bloomberg article
''The reports came from villagers,'' Susilo Hadi, spokesman for the director general of air transportation, said in an interview in Jakarta yesterday. ''We got to the location and didn't find anything.''
"The plane went off the radar at a height of 35,000 feet (10,668 meters) at 2:07 p.m. Jakarta time Jan. 1"
"A crashed airliner emits a beacon from the flight data recorders." (What? Never heard that before)
and the latest which so far seems the most accurate: Flight International - 23 minutes ago
"Search for New Year's Day missing Adam Air Boeing 737 turns to Indonesia's seas"
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 120): If the above could happen, then, I fear, that the search is totally in the wrong area. Following the example of the KKE incident, no one was aware of the problem until they descended. Now, in the case of KKW yesterday, had that error track 038 been taken, the top of descent point would have been past the northern coastline of Sulawesi, with nothing but sea until the Philippines... my greatest fear is that this has happened, and when they descended, they saw nothing but water (which, if on W32, you may see nothign but water at the initial top of descent for a few mins under normal circumstances)... Given the shape of Sulawesi, they may have been lead to believe that they descended early, and decided to press on for a few more miles, which by then would ensure that the northern coast of Sulawesi was beyond the horizon behind them... leaving them no positional reference at all!
Mandala499 You just might have it right.
.
Quoting Ptharris (Reply 170): Sarcasm aside, this has been a tragedy that just continues to go on from the missing aircraft to the piss-poor management of the issue at hand. May God bless those souls aboard and shall His hand be with them all and their familes. pray
Ugh.. it just turns my stomach...
Just what is going on over there? Some of the news was still reporting survivors and wreakage found even up to a few hours ago. Total confusion for the families. How very sad!
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 4546 posts, RR: 60 Reply 175, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 19075 times:
OK, I've just sent that email to the NTSC including probable coordinates of the search box... 120NM by 120NM... unfortunately.... about 500NM away from the current search area... God! I must sound crazy!
Let's see of I can coax someone in the air force to take a "training mission" over to the area to actually do a search! *Evil grin* J/K
My phones and emails are still going crazy... Lucky I'm not in Adam Air, otherwise my phones will be ringing endlessly...
Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
BuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2497 posts, RR: 3 Reply 176, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 19187 times:
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 120): If the above could happen, then, I fear, that the search is totally in the wrong area. Following the example of the KKE incident, no one was aware of the problem until they descended. Now, in the case of KKW yesterday, had that error track 038 been taken, the top of descent point would have been past the northern coastline of Sulawesi, with nothing but sea until the Philippines... my greatest fear is that this has happened, and when they descended, they saw nothing but water (which, if on W32, you may see nothign but water at the initial top of descent for a few mins under normal circumstances)... Given the shape of Sulawesi, they may have been lead to believe that they descended early, and decided to press on for a few more miles, which by then would ensure that the northern coast of Sulawesi was beyond the horizon behind them... leaving them no positional reference at all!
But hang on, if I'm not mistaken a distress call was made (assuming that at least that info is correct of course). That should give them a pretty accurate clue about the distance flown (although not necessarily the heading). Is there any more info on this? If the distress call came about halfway during the flight, they wouldn't have run out of fuel (assuming they made no mistake in the fuel calculations, everything is possible here).
LTBEWR From United States, joined Jan 2004, 9365 posts, RR: 7 Reply 177, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 19080 times:
What is scary here is how a mainline passenger aircraft suddenly disappears from 35,000 ft. apparently without a trace. Of course, there are many areas in the world, as in this situation in some areas of Indonesia, where there are limits to radar and flight tracking despite modern technology.
As with many airline accidents/tragedies, this Adam Air disappearance is probably a mix of a number of factors involved in it's possible cause, including weather, maintenance, an airline's management, mechanical failure and/or pilot errors. That any wreckage has yet to be found and apparently no idea where to look for it is making this tragedy worse.
One has to speculate that there may have been a pressurization failure leading to a structural failure or either on it's own. In any case, I am quite sure all of us here want some preliminary answers soon for our curiosity and to give something to the families of the victims.
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 4546 posts, RR: 60 Reply 178, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 19134 times:
Quote: But hang on, if I'm not mistaken a distress call was made (assuming that at least that info is correct of course). That should give them a pretty accurate clue about the distance flown (although not necessarily the heading). Is there any more info on this? If the distress call came about halfway during the flight, they wouldn't have run out of fuel (assuming they made no mistake in the fuel calculations, everything is possible here).
As silly as Adam Air is, the ops guys do load the correct amount of fuel, + for the alternates... this is probably the only safe thing in Adam I can vouch for. Flights on that route were given 4hrs fuel endurance as a result, and the information is that the flight that day was no different.
The only things official are:
- Aircraft was given direct to Manado from ENDOG (confirmed in press conference)
- Aircraft reported abeam Makassar at radial 320/80NM MKS @ FL350 (time unknown)
- Last Radar Contact was radial 340/100NM MKS @ FL350 (there was a timestamp on this but forgot when).
- 2 ELT impact signals were received... 1 over the water, another was overland... and quite some distance apart.
- No distress calls were made over the COMMS.
I wouldn't accept any other official explanations without skepticism on any official news that would bring a light of hope after yesterday's debacle!
One thing I still need to check was, apart from 1 GA aircraft, were there any other aircraft within 250NM that was on the expected VHF frequencies.
Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
BuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2497 posts, RR: 3 Reply 179, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 19007 times:
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 178):
- 2 ELT impact signals were received... 1 over the water, another was overland... and quite some distance apart.
- No distress calls were made over the COMMS.
OK thanks for clearing that up!
I appreciate your efforts a lot - welcome to my RU list!
PanAmOldDC8 From Barbados, joined Dec 2006, 960 posts, RR: 2 Reply 180, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 18988 times:
Quoting IcLCY (Reply 163): The BBC is no longer carrying this 'story'
It is old news and therefore since it happened in Asia it is not news worthy. If it had happened in Europe or North America that's all we would have heard. That is why people in those areas can get away with it because they are not under the gun, to have the results known. It is a sad state of affairs that we do not care enough to put pressure on that type of operation and close them down or make them clean up their act. By the way have sent an e-mail to Adam Air and it was returned that site is down
Which can be easily solved... it's called Navigational Error. See below...
...
If the aircraft had indeed made an error track of 038 instead of 045 without intention, the aircraft couldn't have tuned into Makassar VOR when they left ENDOG... a possible reason for this was that the crew didn't tune into it because ENDOG is at the edge of coverage for Makassar VOR, which they were going to by pass by some distance anyways.
From what I heard from friends, Capt. Widodo is a good captain, and I could be flamed for suggesting that this was a inertial nav error due to not tuning into VORs... but again, no one expected a pilot from the DGAC (Indo CAA) making that mistake while on KKE...
If the above could happen, then, I fear, that the search is totally in the wrong area. Following the example of the KKE incident, no one was aware of the problem until they descended. Now, in the case of KKW yesterday, had that error track 038 been taken, the top of descent point would have been past the northern coastline of Sulawesi, with nothing but sea until the Philippines... my greatest fear is that this has happened, and when they descended, they saw nothing but water (which, if on W32, you may see nothign but water at the initial top of descent for a few mins under normal circumstances)... Given the shape of Sulawesi, they may have been lead to believe that they descended early, and decided to press on for a few more miles, which by then would ensure that the northern coast of Sulawesi was beyond the horizon behind them... leaving them no positional reference at all!
Even if the navigation system went down and the pilots flew far enough where they had no positional reference, what about the use of a compass? Surely they would know in what general direction they should expect land, all they would need to do is make a 180 degree turn, right? I'm no pilot or navigational expert, but wouldn't a compass (and a watch to estimate distance flown) be enough to turn the plane around to go back to land, or at least from where the plane came from?
Richierich From United States, joined Nov 2000, 3247 posts, RR: 8 Reply 187, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 18046 times:
Quoting DeC (Reply 183): The whole funnily and ironically reminds me of what happened in the jet in the series LOST...am i the only one?
Well, funny is not a word I would use.
I was watching a show on the History Channel last night about the Devil's Triangle, and how it is supposedly much more "active" than its famous brother, the Bermuda Triangle. It went into detail about several ships, aircraft, even submarines that have just gone missing without a trace. Sort of made me think of this Adam Air flight, even though I know it is in a completely different area.
However, I am not saying there are paranormal forces at work here. I think the sad reality is that this plane crashed and, eventually, they will find its wreckage.
Quoting Lostturttle,Reply=172:
"A crashed airliner emits a beacon from the flight data recorders." (What? Never heard that before
Sure. One needs to be able to find the CVR and FDR.
There's an ELT that sends a signal if there's a crash, but the recorders themselves don't emit a signal unless they are submerged, in which case they send out a "ping" underwater for a period of time, to help investigators find them.
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 178): - 2 ELT impact signals were received... 1 over the water, another was overland... and quite some distance apart.
two ELT impact signals? How many ELT transmitters are on a 734 ?
(unless it impacted on land and slid into water, there would have to be two, to indicate the airplane split up and 1/2 fell on land, the other 1/2 in water)
The comment above about LOST seems eerily applicable, almost ...
Morvious From Netherlands, joined Feb 2005, 639 posts, RR: 1 Reply 190, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 17447 times:
Why isn't there a system inside the airplane that transmits signals where it is, how high and how fast it is going? This would be a great backup if there is no radar service like Atlantic flight, remote area's or just when radar fails.
If you can call from an airliner, there must be an easy way to send a signal to the ground with your position, so the flight can be traced 24/7. Its ridiculous that a plane of this size can disappear for over 2 days now.
BuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2497 posts, RR: 3 Reply 191, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 17355 times:
Quoting Morvious (Reply 190): Why isn't there a system inside the airplane that transmits signals where it is, how high and how fast it is going?
That's called a transponder and compulsory (I think) on all commercial airliners. I am 99.9% sure this plane had it as well. Problem is it cannot transmit over long distances, and thus only works if picked up by radar (or other planes). To get an idea of the importance of transponders, just check the threads on the Gol midair collision.
In this case, it would be very very interesting to know if they had their transponder switched on (they should) and if Makassar picked up any transponder data. The investigation team will certainly be looking for this data to see if they can find anything.
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 4546 posts, RR: 60 Reply 192, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 17310 times:
Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 191): In this case, it would be very very interesting to know if they had their transponder switched on (they should) and if Makassar picked up any transponder data. The investigation team will certainly be looking for this data to see if they can find anything.
Well, I wrote earlier that:
Quote: - Last Radar Contact was radial 340/100NM MKS @ FL350 (there was a timestamp on this but forgot when).
The height information was transmitted by the aircraft's Transponder... and picked up by Makassar Radar. That position was I believe, at the edge of effective radar coverage on that wedge from Makassar... beyond that Radar echoes are normally (I am told) not that reliable...
So, the transponder was on at the time it had it's "last effective radar contact".
Quoting Litz (Reply 188): two ELT impact signals? How many ELT transmitters are on a 734 ?
There should one fixed at the aircraft (430MHz I think), and one or more in the cabin for use after evacuation (121.5MHz)... or have I got that the other way around?
Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
Debonair From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 1144 posts, RR: 3 Reply 193, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 16934 times:
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 192): Quoting Litz (Reply 188):
two ELT impact signals? How many ELT transmitters are on a 734 ?
There should one fixed at the aircraft (430MHz I think), and one or more in the cabin for use after evacuation (121.5MHz)... or have I got that the other way around?
Mandala499
Yeap, Cabin ELT is 121.5 MHz (civil) and 243MHz (military freq.). PLUS (model ELTA 06-406) 406.025MHz Satelitte.
But I doubt, that an ELT is standard to the airframe on B737...
Lostturttle From Bermuda, joined Dec 2006, 139 posts, RR: 0 Reply 195, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 16365 times:
Quoting Litz (Reply 188):
There's an ELT that sends a signal if there's a crash, but the recorders themselves don't emit a signal unless they are submerged, in which case they send out a "ping" underwater for a period of time, to help investigators find them.
Electech6299 From United States, joined Aug 2005, 616 posts, RR: 4 Reply 196, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 16224 times:
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 178): 2 ELT impact signals were received... 1 over the water, another was overland... and quite some distance apart.
Do you know the time lapse between the ELT signals? Could one have been an echo- or would land features prevent the reception of both of them from the same point? Also, could one (or both) of them be a different aircraft? I know in rough weather, ELTs in general aviation craft have been known to go off...What was the timing of the ELT pings in comparison to local weather events? (Not that it necessarily coorelates...a flooded cockpit can trigger an ELT hours or days later)
Also, are marine ELTs on the same frequency? (doubt it, but I don't know for sure) Any chance the over-water ELT was on a nautical vessel (perhaps a private pilot doubling as a sailor?)
In my (admittedly limited) experience, ELT signals taken by themselves give a lot of false or misleading information. Perhaps we'll understand the signals when other pieces of evidence start coming together- rather than the ELT signals leading to other evidence.
Finally, how long are the FDR/CVR transmitters supposed to work? Only a few hours, or a few days? Assuming an underwater location, are we running out of time to find the general area and possibly find a weak signal- or are we already well beyond that possibility?
[Edited 2007-01-04 00:24:49]
[Edited 2007-01-04 00:27:16]
Send not to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for thee
".............The cause of the crash still remains to be determined, but in an interview with Jakarta-based MetroTV, someone called Felix claimed that some months ago some Adam Air pilots were forced to resign because they objected to fly planes they considered unsafe..."
Jetfuel From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 922 posts, RR: 0 Reply 201, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 15811 times:
I dont want to speculate but how feasible is it that, considering the weather at the time, that the pilot exceeded Vne and/or overstressed the airframe in flight?
198467 From Singapore, joined Jan 2007, 52 posts, RR: 0 Reply 202, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 15706 times:
Because bad weather was reported over that region, that's why I felt it was possible. But of course, it's best to let the investigators determine the real cause. I am only sharing my thoughts on this possibility.
When you play, people stare. When you work, people don't care.
Lostturttle From Bermuda, joined Dec 2006, 139 posts, RR: 0 Reply 203, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 15668 times:
Quoting Jetfuel (Reply 197): I found a news article claiming plane broke up in mid-air causing parts to fall over wide area because the Adam Air Boeing 737-400 emergency beacons are sending signals from different locations
From the story "Since the plane disappeared, both beacons have been sending distress signals"
Why then if they are receiving signals can they not locate the source?
198467 From Singapore, joined Jan 2007, 52 posts, RR: 0 Reply 206, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 15509 times:
Quoting Palladium (Reply 206): I have a strong feeling that the plane will never ever be found.
I hope they can retrieved something, at least.
Back to the airline involved, they should be investigated or the aircraft manufacturer should do something about the planes that airline are flying (I read from another thread about their maintainence standards).
Passengers put their lifes and trust on the pilots, the pilots should know better than us. If Tower Control did advised that weather is not suitable for flying, then some deviations or counter-measures should have been considered (either crew or ATC).
Ok, that was my thoughts on it..
[Edited 2007-01-04 04:36:21]
When you play, people stare. When you work, people don't care.
Jasond From Australia, joined Jul 2009, 13 posts, RR: 0 Reply 207, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 15395 times:
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 178): - Aircraft reported abeam Makassar at radial 320/80NM MKS @ FL350 (time unknown)
- Last Radar Contact was radial 340/100NM MKS @ FL350 (there was a timestamp on this but forgot when).
Mandala, given what we will assume for the moment are correct positions. You can presumably calculate at least the bearing between the two points and check whether that bearing is consistent with being on an assigned air route. The bearing and positions I can calculate but I can't comment on whether they were actually on course (no route info available at the moment).
Electech6299 From United States, joined Aug 2005, 616 posts, RR: 4 Reply 208, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 15250 times:
Quoting Jetfuel (Reply 197): emergency beacons are sending signals from different locations
See my earlier post on ELTs. Unless their "beacons" are not ELTs but transponders, or they have a magical crystal ball, or this 737 is the only craft with ELTs in Indonesia, then the ELT signal means nothing until it's source is found. I was involved in a search where an ELT was traced to the back of a Jeep on a campground. A private pilot had put his ELT in the Jeep after a flight for some reason, and it started going off while he was camping in the mountains. The ELT signal was easily traced by ground search crews- they either had the signal or they didn't- but whenever aerial scanners got within a few miles, they got reflections from a half of a dozen different directions. (The actual crash was later found by extrapolation of radar data- the ELT in the crashed plane had failed)
Quoting 198467 (Reply 207): I hope they can retrieved something, at least.
Not to sound fatalistic....
Something will be found, unless:
a) all PFDs burned in a cabin fire and then the frame disintegrated over water; or
b) the frame went intact into the ocean and sank, with no ELTs activated or ELT batteries expired
If it broke up over land, it may take several weeks, or even months, but someone will find pieces of aircraft aluminum or turbine blades- or the whole tail section- in the forest. If it broke up over water, PFDs will wash up on the beach.
With Mandala499's theory, ditching with no fuel into the ocean, I suppose option "b" is possible- but eventually the projected flight path will be calculated and satellite, aerial, surface vessel or submarine imagery will find the wreck. Something will be found, eventually.
I still wish all the best to the pax and crew- I suppose hoping against reasonable hope is still a weakness of mine.
Quoting Palladium (Reply 206): When the plane disappeared at 35 thousand feet,
The current reports indicate that the plane disappeared at FL350 by flying beyond available radar. If it encountered severe weather after that, I don't see why it would have broken up at that altitude and not first descended (unless the worst-case scenario prevails)
I still wonder about the veracity of the ELT signals, and what communication options the crew had (and would likely have used)
[Edited 2007-01-04 05:53:12]
[Edited 2007-01-04 05:55:43]
Send not to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for thee
Jamake1 From United States, joined May 2004, 558 posts, RR: 5 Reply 212, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 14774 times:
One would think that if the plane crashed into the water, that rescue ships and helicopters would have spotted debris. No? I can recall a Varig Boeing 737 crashing in a remote jungle several years back due to fuel starvation and it took several days for search and rescue to locate the wreckage. (Fortunately, many survived that accident).
ANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 213, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 14705 times:
Quoting Palladium (Reply 211): so if we cannot find this plane... will this be the first time ever in the history that a plane crashed and cannot be found?
Chiguire From Venezuela, joined Sep 2004, 2002 posts, RR: 23 Reply 216, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 14577 times:
I have been following this right from the beginning. Although I am from the commercial side of civil aviation and I don't understand things like340/100NM MKS @ FL350, I wonder a bit about the fact that Adam Air is being blamed being guilty in this accident.
The wreckage has still not been found and the reason for this sad accident is not clear. I understand that the safety records, trainings etc. at Adam Air are poor, bad, very bad, however. And our Indonesian friends are probably right that they need to improve a lot and that the airline should be grounded until then (maybe just as Aero California in Mexiko). But I still see no evidence that this accident was cause by poor maintenance and/or bad training by the airline.
So just some another question to the a.netters in Indonesia: What is Adam Air doing these days ? Do they operate as usual ? Do they receive bookings? How is the public opinion in Indonesia about this airline ? And: Has this accident maybe caused a passenger sensibility towards the safety of the airline they fly with ?
Chiguire From Venezuela, joined Sep 2004, 2002 posts, RR: 23 Reply 217, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 14569 times:
Something else comes to my mind that I forgot to ask: Is Indonesia Cat I or Cat II in the US. Reading all these things about poor airline maintenance and radars etc. I suppose they should be in II ?
And I still think we are owed an explanation on the initial announcement of the false crash site and I quote a number of sources
"............Idin Arifin, team leader from the national search and rescue agency, said the wreckage was tucked four kilometres away from the edge of a remote hamlet.
..............First Air Marshal Eddy Suyanto, the commander of Hasanuddin air base in the Sulawesi city of Makassar, told Radio Elshinta: "The plane is in ruins.........Setyo Rahardjo, head of Indonesia's national transport safety committee, said experts have been sent to find the plane's blackbox......
.............Vice President Jusuf Kalla said the budget airline should not be hastily blamed for the incident. "The airline is very careful. They do not take weather lightly. They will not fly if it was dangerous," he said.
.................Police Chief Col. Genot Hariyanto had earlier said that rescue teams arrived at the crash site on Sulawesi's western coast early Tuesday and found the charred wreckage of Adam Air Flight KI-574 and scores of bodies.
I am still feeling sad for those that have more than likely perished and of cousre their loving ones. I cant help (as most of us do) try to piece together a scenario. If I was a betting man I would probably be thinking along these lines -
*Flight Crew with limited experience
*Aircraft with possible defects
*Flight Crew bullied into ops, even in questionable weather
*Possible Severe Turbulence
*Possible Lightning Strike (amd bad maintenance) casuing ignition of fuel
*Flight Crew possible overstressing airframe
*Eventual Breakup of Airframe
Whilst Military and civilian aircraft have been scouring the jungles and rugged mountains and navy ships combed the Makassar Strait between the islands of Sulawesi and Borneo, it is now night again in the area so there's little chance of news for another 12-18 hours
President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono has ordered a full investigation into the condition of all commercial planes in Indonesia and what went wrong in the Adam Air case, as well as an evaluation of the nation's transportation system(A BIT TOO LATE)
Lostturttle From Bermuda, joined Dec 2006, 139 posts, RR: 0 Reply 222, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 14319 times:
Quoting Electech6299 (Reply 208): See my earlier post on ELTs. Unless their "beacons" are not ELTs but transponders, or they have a magical crystal ball, or this 737 is the only craft with ELTs in Indonesia, then the ELT signal means nothing until it's source is found. I was involved in a search where an ELT was traced to the back of a Jeep on a campground. A private pilot had put his ELT in the Jeep after a flight for some reason, and it started going off while he was camping in the mountains. The ELT signal was easily traced by ground search crews- they either had the signal or they didn't- but whenever aerial scanners got within a few miles, they got reflections from a half of a dozen different directions. (The actual crash was later found by extrapolation of radar data- the ELT in the crashed plane had failed)
A similar event occurs here in Bermuda every couple of years when an ELT signal is picked up. A full search and rescue operation starts, even the US Coast Guard gets called in! Only to find some ones ELT has gone off in a boat at it's moorings (we have a lot of boats here) or a boat sunk at the moorings! Though we also get our share of true sea rescues as well, many thanks to the US Coast Guard.
Lostturttle From Bermuda, joined Dec 2006, 139 posts, RR: 0 Reply 223, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 14258 times:
Quoting Palladium (Reply 211): so if we cannot find this plane... will this be the first time ever in the history that a plane crashed and cannot be found?
Plenty of cases of missing aircraft over the years. PBS did an excellent documentary a few years ago on a similar event.
A British South American Airliner Lancastrian (based on the WWII Lancaster) called Star Dust. In 1947 on a flight from Buenos Aires to Santiago, Chile via Mendoza, the airliner vanished. five decades later it was discovered high up in the mountains.
A lot of speculation as to the cause and nature of the disappearance arose, including many conspiracy theories such as sabotage or even a UFO having taken the aeroplane!
It was not a UFO............Navigational errors by a very experienced crew, not aware of the large jet streams over the Andes caused the pilots to descend to soon and fly into the side of the mountain.
A342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 3847 posts, RR: 1 Reply 224, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 14117 times:
Just a possibility, but maybe a marine patrol aircraft with a MAD could help in the search ? I know MADs are designed to locate submarines, but maybe they can also detect metal floating on the surface...but then again, aircraft are mostly made from aluminium...
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 3907 posts, RR: 78 Reply 225, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 14083 times:
Quoting Chiguire (Reply 216): What is Adam Air doing these days ? Do they operate as usual ? Do they receive bookings? How is the public opinion in Indonesia about this airline ? And: Has this accident maybe caused a passenger sensibility towards the safety of the airline they fly with ?
Adam Air is operating as normal, and if recent experiences with fatal air disasters (Lion Air MD82 in Solo and Mandala B732 in Medan, both in the past 2 years) are anything to go by, the average Indonesian traveler will not change its habits a bit.
The Indonesian domestic travel market is very price sensitive and not sensitive at all to any quality issues, including safety and security. Most travelers will opt for the plane as long as prices are lower than prices for alternative means of travel, i.e. buses, trains and ferries. One might think that passengers might be willing to pay a premium for the relative expedience related to air travel, but that does not hold true in Indonesia. People in here are seldom in a hurry and if a train ticket between Surabaya and Jakarta turns out cheaper than an airfare, that people will gladly take the train for 12 hours over the 1-hour plane ride.
The only airline which is more or less escaping this el cheapo phenomenon - at least for domestic travel - is Garuda Indonesia, whose airfares are consistently higher than those of most domestic competitors, but which is nevertheless enjoying high load factors, because a certain segment of the population will use Garuda for its domestic travel needs, no matter what.
But, as said, for the large majority of air travelers, price is the only things that matters, and if Adam Air is continuing to offer rock bottom fares, even beating bus fares, that people will continue to fly it, and this one fatal crash will change very little to that.
Point in case, just yesterday, in my friend's Jakarta-based travel agency, a somewhat educated Indonesian selected Adam Air over Thai Airways for a Jakarta - Singapore roundtrip, over a price difference of just 4 (FOUR!) US Dollar. When the staff reminded the passenger of what happened to Adam Air just two days earlier, the person pointed at the price difference and went ahead buying the Adam Air ticket.
It is, as such, absolutely clear to me that the effects of this crash on Adam Air's operation and passenger numbers are/will be minimal, just as there were very little consequences for both Lion Air and Mandala after they caused the deaths of 16 resp. 150 people in recent air disasters.
Quoting Jetfuel (Reply 221): Vice President Jusuf Kalla said the budget airline should not be hastily blamed for the incident. "The airline is very careful. They do not take weather lightly. They will not fly if it was dangerous," he said.
Please note that the Vice President of Indonesia is a close political ally of the Speaker of the House, who happens to be the Chairman of Adam Air. Apart from that, the Vice President has a history of making unfounded and ill-advized statements. This quote of the man is no more than some personal backing by the country's number 2 to his closest political ally. I wouldn't put any actual value whatsoever to this man's words.
Quoting Jetfuel (Reply 221): President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono has ordered a full investigation into the condition of all commercial planes in Indonesia and what went wrong in the Adam Air case, as well as an evaluation of the nation's transportation system(A BIT TOO LATE)
That would then be the third time he has done so. First time was after the Lion Air MD81 crash in Solo, Central Java on November 30, 2004. He emulated himself when a Mandala B732 came down upon take of from Medan's Polonia airport in 2005, killing over 150 people. Allow me to be very sceptical to the good man's latest words, while we have seen no outcome whatsoever to the two previously announced probes. Luckily, the average Indonesian is over and over shown to suffer from an acute lack of memory.
As a matter of fact, the only thing that has come out of the government following a string of fatal and non-fatal airline incidents is a completely ludicrous ban on the use of the B737-200 in the country, which is supposed to come into effect in just over a year or so.
The Indonesian Government, whether it is organizing the current rescue efforts for the missing Adam Air flight, or setting up safety standards for the local aviation industry is both unwilling and incapable of taking any measures that could even initiate a long overdue clean up of the rotten situations that are found throughout the industry as we speak. Utter chaos, total incompetence and rampant corruption is still very much the order of the day.
ANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 226, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 14136 times:
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 225): The Indonesian Government, whether it is organizing the current rescue efforts for the missing Adam Air flight, or setting up safety standards for the local aviation industry is both unwilling and incapable of taking any measures that could even initiate a long overdue clean up of the rotten situations that are found throughout the industry as we speak. Utter chaos, total incompetence and rampant corruption is still very much the order of the day.
All they need do is require all Indonesian airlines must pass (and maintain) an IOSA audit.
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man what a tragic week it has been for this region. In the BBC article Lee posted it says:
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You mean it landed???
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I would like to know the reason too..
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