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Air India And JAT Join Hands, AI May Buy JU  
User currently offlineJoKeR From Serbia, joined Nov 2004, 2235 posts, RR: 9
Posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5672 times:

An unlikely "couple" have joined hands in forming a new joint venture company based in Belgrade.

India's national airline - Air India and Serbia's JAT have signed an MoU which will see the establishment of a JV company that will explore revitalizing JAT's fleet, utilizing all of JAT's valuable slots at congested airports and re-routing some of AI's flights to the US and Canada via Belgrade.

It is very likely that AI may also acquire a substantial share in JU and there is even speculation of a mini-Euro hub for AI in BEG. I will update you with more details once they become available.

There are apparently two other carriers, one from the Far East and once from the Middle East, who have contemplated a similar idea...

The news was announced by BETA News Agency and B92 TV.


Kafa, čaj, šraf?
36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJimyvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5662 times:

Wishful thinking it seems at this point with limited detail. It probably will re-route some, but not all through Belgrade to USA.

User currently offlineJoKeR From Serbia, joined Nov 2004, 2235 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5610 times:

Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 1):
Wishful thinking it seems at this point with limited detail.

Personally, I suspect that this is a publicity stunt by JAT.

Although I have no doubts that JU and the unrestricted and uncongested ops into BEG may be of interest to some carriers due to the location and cost within Europe, what - if anything will come out of this remains to be seen....



Kafa, čaj, šraf?
User currently offlineVimanav From India, joined Jul 2003, 1515 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5614 times:

Reminds me of the time when AI was seriously evaluating the IL96 and TU204 for their fleet!!!

Its definitely an odd one!!

rgds//Vimanav



Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
User currently offlineJimyvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5548 times:

Quoting Vimanav (Reply 3):
Reminds me of the time when AI was seriously evaluating the IL96 and TU204 for their fleet!!!

Well, they did leased IL62 from Aeroflot, didn't they?


User currently offlineVimanav From India, joined Jul 2003, 1515 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5534 times:

Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 4):
Well, they did leased IL62 from Aeroflot, didn't they?

Leasing an IL62 for their MOW operations is one thing and evaluating IL96s and TU204s for purchase (when the whole world was going for Western types) is another.

rgds//Vimanav



Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24814 posts, RR: 46
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5519 times:

With Air India reportedly headed for the Star Alliance and already focusing much of its European flying in FRA, this joint venture news and making use of such a small local market such as BEG sounds bizarre.  Yeah sure


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26845 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5354 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 6):
With Air India reportedly headed for the Star Alliance

WOW really??? Is this for real??? That would be so cool , I love AI in J class and Im Star Gold so a good way to get more miles.

As for JU/AI an interesting mix .


User currently offlineKaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2364 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5287 times:

The airport in Belgrade can not even handle 777s, and probably not even 787s. What is the point I may ask....

User currently offlineBEG2IAH From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 935 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5247 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 8):
The airport in Belgrade can not even handle 777s, and probably not even 787s. What is the point I may ask....

I would suggest that you check your facts first. Is this B742 smaller than a B777? If BEG could handle this plane in 1987, I would assume it could today.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dejan Milinkovic



Also, here are a few examples of tiny little aircaft visiting BEG:

Cargo/Mil:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Milan Vladisavljevic
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jaroslav Z



MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Zoran Milenkovic



Civilian:

MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Dejan Milinkovic



Check BEG website, you might learn something there:
www.beg.aero

BEG2IAH

[Edited 2007-01-02 22:50:42]


FAA killed the purpose of my old signature: Use of approved electronic devices is now permitted.
User currently offlineJoKeR From Serbia, joined Nov 2004, 2235 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5222 times:

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 8):
The airport in Belgrade can not even handle 777s, and probably not even 787s. What is the point I may ask....



Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 9):
I would suggest that you check your facts first. Is this B742 smaller than a B777? If BEG could handle this plane in 1987, I would assume it could today.

BEG2IAH, relax, he is just a quick thinking teenage aviation enthusiast who has a long way to go... Big grin Big grin Big grin

Kaitak744, widebody ops are not that uncommon, you'll be surprised to know that BEG terminal can actually handle the A380... now that will make you fall of your chair! Big grin During the peak of late 80's and early '90s, BEG had upto 12 DC-10, one L1011 and two 747 movements per day. Maybe small by global standards, but we're proud of it!  Smile



Kafa, čaj, šraf?
User currently offlineKaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2364 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5201 times:

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 10):
BEG2IAH, relax, he is just a quick thinking teenage aviation enthusiast who has a long way to go... Big grin Big grin Big grin

Kaitak744, widebody ops are not that uncommon, you'll be surprised to know that BEG terminal can actually handle the A380... now that will make you fall of your chair! Big grin During the peak of late 80's and early '90s, BEG had upto 12 DC-10, one L1011 and two 747 movements per day. Maybe small by global standards, but we're proud of it! Smile

Why thank you.  Smile.

I said what I said based on Google Earth. In the photo, I used the ruler and found the gates on the South/East side are roughly 170 ft by 170 ft. That is too small to handle 777s and 787s.


Now, I just noticed the gates on the north side. They are ~270 ft by ~220 ft. So, I stand corrected. 747s, 787s, and 777s can fly there.


User currently offlineBEG2IAH From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 935 posts, RR: 17
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5118 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 10):
BEG2IAH, relax, he is just a quick thinking teenage aviation enthusiast who has a long way to go...



Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 11):
Now, I just noticed the gates on the north side. They are ~270 ft by ~220 ft. So, I stand corrected. 747s, 787s, and 777s can fly there.

I'm sorry for my fast reaction. A lack of time can do wonders.

I'd love to see some of AI's B744s at BEG. I still can't forget the first close-up view of their B742. Our B733 looked like a tweety next to it.

BEG2IAH



FAA killed the purpose of my old signature: Use of approved electronic devices is now permitted.
User currently offlineAleksandar From Serbia, joined Jul 2000, 3236 posts, RR: 32
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5098 times:

Well, I was quite surprised to hear the news. Now, I would love to hear some of the A.netters from India.


R-E-S-P-E-C-T
User currently offlineNimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3212 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4974 times:

I don't know what to say - this is really weird!! There's been barely any aviation links between these countries, and I'm not sure what AI & JU hope to accomplish with this!


Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
User currently offlineAirIndia From United Arab Emirates, joined Jan 2001, 1634 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4793 times:

Quoting Nimish (Reply 14):
I don't know what to say - this is really weird!! There's been barely any aviation links between these countries, and I'm not sure what AI & JU hope to accomplish with this!

No such reports in the Indian media as yet...


User currently offlineAleksandar From Serbia, joined Jul 2000, 3236 posts, RR: 32
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4775 times:

Quoting Nimish (Reply 14):
I don't know what to say - this is really weird!! There's been barely any aviation links between these countries, and I'm not sure what AI & JU hope to accomplish with this!

You're right, but there is a strange thing. AI always had office in Belgrade and I remember Indian guys working there.

What would they achieve? Good question. I heard something about joint-venture. Then, pilot training in Serbia and some trans-Atlantic flights with stop in BEG. The funniest thing was to hear that AI wants to help JAT in modernizing its fleet.

Quoting AirIndia (Reply 15):
No such reports in the Indian media as yet...

I hope there will be some. I would really like to know more.



R-E-S-P-E-C-T
User currently offlineNimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3212 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4716 times:

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 16):
What would they achieve? Good question. I heard something about joint-venture. Then, pilot training in Serbia and some trans-Atlantic flights with stop in BEG

One option I can think of is that AI is seriously looking at setting up a major scissors hub in a cheap airport in Europe (I don't know if BEG is cheap, but I'm guessing it's much cheaper than AI's current alternatives of FRA, CDG or LHR). In which case it would help to code share with JU (at least on the BEG-USA sectors).

If JU has an excess of pilots - I can also see AI using/sharing those JU pilots - as AI is desperately short of pilots. A far-fetched option - all India based pilots do India-BEG sectors, and JU pilots handle the BEG-USA sectors!!!! I'm sure the cost of living/crew stay will be more reasonable in BEG than the other European hubs.

The big problem I see with this whole scenario is the lack of any significant O&D traffic between India and BEG (which is there in plenty and LHR and in decent amounts at FRA and CDG). So unless AI gets the scissors hub done perfectly, it's going to see little local feed coming in from BEG.



Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
User currently offlinePdanicic From Serbia, joined Oct 2005, 132 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4689 times:

I do think this could just be what it really is - a Letter of Intent. We are still going to see if, for real, AI is going to operate from BEG as a stop for it's flights to USA. Currently, JU codeshares with EK on JFK flights (via HAM) and the business goes really well.

However, I still don't think AI could help as JU still depends heavily on Serbian Government, as it owns entire capital of the airline. If AI, or any other company, become JU strategic partner, or purchase certain stocks, then it may come to certain changes. Now, everything depends on the good mood on the guys in the Government and the minister in charge  Sad

On the other side, there is a history of some Indian pilots getting training in Jat Airways Flight Academy, in Vrsac (located in the eastern part of Vojvodina, near Romanian border). What I expect is that this kind of cooperation will be the first to continue.

Quoting Nimish (Reply 17):
If JU has an excess of pilots

Actually, there is certain number of pilots certified to fly the 767, which JU intended to acquire in the spring of 2006. As nothing happened with this fleet upgrade, most of these pilots continue to fly on the 737, as they all have valid licences for this aircraft as well. However, I do think that some amount of pilots could be trained to fly the AI planes, but only if they achieve such a deal with AI Management.

Cheers and Happy New Year  Smile

Predrag



If ain't Boeing - it ain't going :)
User currently offlineGr8Circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 3092 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4645 times:

Quoting Vimanav (Reply 5):
Leasing an IL62 for their MOW operations is one thing and evaluating IL96s and TU204s for purchase (when the whole world was going for Western types) is another.

That was a thing of the past, when India was cosy with the Soviets and the West enjoyed islolating India.....not really of any relevance today as things have changed drastically....

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 6):
With Air India reportedly headed for the Star Alliance and already focusing much of its European flying in FRA, this joint venture news and making use of such a small local market such as BEG sounds bizarre

Maybe AI is taking a step that will pay handsomely 5-10 years down the line....while the whole world is obsessed with hubs like FRA, CDG, AMS and LHR in Europe, they are looking at something else altogether...  smile 


User currently offlineJoKeR From Serbia, joined Nov 2004, 2235 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4637 times:

Quoting Nimish (Reply 17):
One option I can think of is that AI is seriously looking at setting up a major scissors hub in a cheap airport in Europe (I don't know if BEG is cheap, but I'm guessing it's much cheaper than AI's current alternatives of FRA, CDG or LHR). In which case it would help to code share with JU (at least on the BEG-USA sectors).

I think that this is the most logical conclusion we can reach with the limited information at hand. Perhaps BEG will simply be a hub for AI flights arriving from BOM/DEL, and some may continue onwards to US and Canada. Pax would then transit in BEG and fly onwards to other European destinations. In turn, JU would give AI its rights for flights to US and Canada... I'm guessing here!

Quoting Nimish (Reply 17):
The big problem I see with this whole scenario is the lack of any significant O&D traffic between India and BEG (which is there in plenty and LHR and in decent amounts at FRA and CDG). So unless AI gets the scissors hub done perfectly, it's going to see little local feed coming in from BEG.

Only feed, no O&D unless JU directs all its Far East and Australia (where AI does not fly to) traffic onto AI and thus terminates its agreement with EK.

Quoting Pdanicic (Reply 18):
However, I still don't think AI could help as JU still depends heavily on Serbian Government, as it owns entire capital of the airline.

AI is also government owned and controlled.

Quoting Pdanicic (Reply 18):
What I expect is that this kind of cooperation will be the first to continue.

I agree, especially now that Serbia is a JAA member



Kafa, čaj, šraf?
User currently offlineJoKeR From Serbia, joined Nov 2004, 2235 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4629 times:

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 19):
Maybe AI is taking a step that will pay handsomely 5-10 years down the line

Even sooner - Serbia is still not an EU member hence many of the strict EU laws do not apply, yet it is smack in the middle of Europe and surrounded by some EU states. BEG is definitely much cheaper for landing/handling than EU airports and it is underserved with excess capacity.

BEG's position also allows AI a "handsome offsite" hub'n spoke site to be developed on Euro turf with FRA, CDG, VIE, ZRH, LHR, MAN, BHX etc only an hour or two away.



Kafa, čaj, šraf?
User currently offlineBlueElephant From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 1813 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4615 times:

i don't really Understand this partnership.

it reminds me of this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6047262.stm


User currently offlineJoyA380B747 From India, joined Mar 2005, 490 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4610 times:

Well.... Seems like AI is trying to make its presence felt in areas never before explored by any Indian airline.


If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11411 posts, RR: 62
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4568 times:

Mumbai-Belgrade-Newark?

Sounds like a no-brainer to me. !! Not !!  Smile


25 Aleksandar : I have no idea if its cheaper but it is far less congested and it means a lot. AI heavies would certainly have no need to taxi around for an hour bef
26 Gr8Circle : Care to explain why you feel that way....?
27 OA260 : I had forgotten about that flight , would have been great to be on it. Hmm well next time you have a meeting with the AI directors youd better tell t
28 Post contains images JoKeR : Actually be happy you didn't experience it... all but complaints! Apparently stinky, filthy aircraft
29 Aleksandar : Really? I didn't know that.
30 Cricket : I'll believe it when the reports come out here, doesn't make sense if you ask me.
31 OA260 : I know people that flew them from London and they said they were ok . Maybe different A/C .
32 Boeing747_600 : What's so funny about that?! JAT still operates -300 and -400 series 737s. AI's fleet (with 4 777s and over 20 787's on order) is much more modern in
33 Vlada : Well, there was another article in yesterday's Politika newspaper, which does not mention anything regarding JAT's fleet renewal. It only states that
34 Nimish : Surprising that the Indian press has not yet caught up to this announcement/LOI signing!
35 Boeing747_600 : trained to fly what ?!?!
36 Post contains links Flyboy_se : kites!!!! www.jatfa.com
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