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787 Engine Nacelle Change... Again?  
User currently offlineKhenleyDIA From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 426 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 20041 times:

Originally Boeing release the 787 with multiple color engine nacelles since that is what many airlines enjoy with their liveries. Then, a number of months back, they said that they were recommending that the airlines get single colors on their planes. They even went as far to say that the color should be more of a grey color to match the front of the engine nacelle. Now, it appears that has changed again.

http://boeingmedia.com/imageDetail.cfm?id=14697&clr=release

The picture of this 787 shows white engine nacelle. Has Boeing changed their stance? Or, have airlines complained about their 'grey color' scheme thoughts?

I did a search, but didn't find anything helpful.

KhenleyDIA


Why sit at home and do nothing when you can travel the world.
33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 20053 times:

I'm not thinking there is anything helpful to add... nobody was going to fly their planes with nacelles that didn't match their schemes.

N


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21531 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 19892 times:

I think it has to be a solid color, but I don't think the color actually matters. While grey would look good on this scheme with the grey belly, white or purple are just as valid.

I never understood why they said it should be grey instead of just saying it should be a solid color.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29799 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 19878 times:

Whites have been traditionally used in composites because it doesn't get as hot in the sun.

Extreme heat is detrimental to the strength of composites.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 19806 times:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 1):
I'm not thinking there is anything helpful to add... nobody was going to fly their planes with nacelles that didn't match their schemes.

What about these airlines:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © H. Meier



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Florian Kondziela



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Eter



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Maurice Teerds


I found these by looking at three pages of pictures picked at random.


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30996 posts, RR: 86
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 19771 times:
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I believe Boeing's comment was that going with a single color would save fuel, both due to less weight and better laminar flow (or something) over the nacelle.

I don't believe it was a requirement for airlines, just a suggestion.


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 19756 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 4):
What about these airlines:

Simple: in the case of 4R (Hamburg International), LH, CA and KL, the grey on the engine matches the grey on the belly (though for CA, it's more of a grey-ish white than grey). Note that in the case of KL's current colourscheme, the engine colour still colourmatches the belly, albeit in white.

[Edited 2007-01-03 03:44:54]

User currently offlineLostturttle From Bermuda, joined Dec 2006, 140 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 19697 times:

I like the "cheat" line on the 787 paint scheme that that Jet Airways plans to use. Looks very classic on a very modern aircraft.

Quoting KhenleyDIA (Thread starter):

http://boeingmedia.com/imageDetail.c...lease


User currently offlineRuscoe From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1567 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 19603 times:

I think the reference to grey nacelles by Boeing is just to create a baseline on which to be able to quote performance figures to customers.

You can have any color you want but it will burn more fuel than our baseline grey. (weight & aerodynamic considerations)

Ruscoe


User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4106 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 19505 times:

I have no idea about the color, but that's got to be the most detailed rendering Boeing has released. Looks awesome!

User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 21
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 19423 times:

Quoting Lostturttle (Reply 7):
I like the "cheat" line on the 787 paint scheme that that Jet Airways plans to use. Looks very classic on a very modern aircraft.

I think the reason it looks good is because it wraps all way round the nose of the aircraft, instead of most schemes with cheatlines that end right at the cockpit windows.
Beauty is a very subtle thing.



Delete this User
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21531 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 19382 times:

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 9):
but that's got to be the most detailed rendering Boeing has released

There even looks like there's an F/A standing behind the pilots!!



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineBeech19 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 936 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 19188 times:

The grey is the lightest and dries to be the thinnest (weight saving)pigment for paint. That is why boeing included it in its livery. If airlines choice to go against this they know they will take a hit on efficiency. Do a search on boeings press releases to find it. Its their... if i had time i would pull it up. This was all done in a method. Boeing knows what they are doing...

I have personally not heard of any new changes.



KPAE via KBVY
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 977 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 19109 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
I think it has to be a solid color, but I don't think the color actually matters. I never understood why they said it should be grey instead of just saying it should be a solid color.

I am about 95% certain it must be gray to obtain the drag reduction Boeing touted.

IIRC, the paint was specifically formulated and applied in such a way that the laminar flow around the nacelle was improved. The tone of this paint just so happens to be gray, and for the time being is only available in gray.

Quoting KhenleyDIA (Thread starter):
Has Boeing changed their stance? Or, have airlines complained about their 'grey color' scheme thoughts?

Boeing was never going to force airlines to do anything in regards to paint. The customers own the aircraft and can do whatever they want.

Airlines may have requested that Boeing develop more color tones that offer the drag reduction than just gray (sensible, IMO) or individual airlines may have decided they are willing to sacrifice the drag reduction for a uniform product appearance.

Finally, the promotional materials that have been drafted by artist. Their accuracy is far from guaranteed, so do not read too deeply into them.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 9):
I have no idea about the color, but that's got to be the most detailed rendering Boeing has released. Looks awesome!

I have a 787 rendering that is about 900 kb in a full 5950 x 3980 pixle resolution. Check my photo album in my user profile in just a moment.

IT is the most detailed rendering I've ever seen!!  Wink

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 1):
I'm not thinking there is anything helpful to add... nobody was going to fly their planes with nacelles that didn't match their schemes.

There will always be someone. It's a rather insignificant trade-off in product branding, and the cumulative fleet savings over the life of the aircraft are not so insignificant.


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 977 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 19086 times:

And here she is:

http://www.airliners.net/uf/536883978/1167802662lAOFZj.jpg


User currently offlineBeech19 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 936 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 19041 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 14):
And here she is:

Good goD! Its huge! Thanks! That is one amazing image. Time to make a poster!  Smile



KPAE via KBVY
User currently offlineSirOmega From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 735 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 19033 times:

Hello new desktop background! Thanks DFWRevolution!

User currently offlineWingedMigrator From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2213 posts, RR: 56
Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 19006 times:

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 12):
This was all done in a method.

Perhaps to offset the drag penalty incurred by the nacelle's chevrons? Serious question-- I see that you're working on the 787.


User currently offlineBeech19 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 936 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 18947 times:

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 17):
Perhaps to offset the drag penalty incurred by the nacelle's chevrons? Serious question-- I see that you're working on the 787.

Well i am not in the engineering but i would say that its a good and probably very logical consideration. They would cancel eachother out as far as penalty to advantage. 1-2% drop for chevrons (but a HUGE sound wave decrease) and a 1-2% increase for paint liv.

I'll be building the plane...  Smile



KPAE via KBVY
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21531 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 18921 times:

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 15):
Good goD! Its huge! Thanks! That is one amazing image. Time to make a poster!  

My browser stalled for many seconds, I thought it had crashed!



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineDomokun From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 202 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 18696 times:

Maybe I have just never noticed on other planes but the rain gutters above the doors look like they are curved. I have only noticed straight ones in the past...

User currently offlineKalakaua From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1516 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 17842 times:

The wings, as well, will also be painted white.


Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion.
User currently offlinePtharris From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 282 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 17649 times:

Aside from the engines, is there any benefit from so much wing flex?


If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you.
User currently offlineVegas005 From Switzerland, joined Mar 2005, 320 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 15434 times:

I like Boeing but this plane looks more like a 767 every time I see it ... boring!!

User currently offlinePoitin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 15301 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
I believe Boeing's comment was that going with a single color would save fuel, both due to less weight and better laminar flow (or something) over the nacelle.

I don't believe it was a requirement for airlines, just a suggestion.

The issue is the paint lines which are left after you mask the base coat and spray a second or third color. When you take off the masking tape the new paint sticks a couple thousands above the previous color and so causes a slight turbulence which disrupts the laminar flow.

Years ago a guy I know built a Rutan VariEasy. He did a beautiful paint job with lines running down the wings and canard. When it came time for first flight, the damn thing would not rotate. The problem turned out to be the paint edges destroyed the canard's laminar flow to the point it wouldn't lift. He had to sand off the paint job and after that, it flew as it should.

So even a slight imperfection on the surface, if running along the wing, or in this case the engine nacelles can dramatically increase drag, if in the wrong place. I suspect Boeing is just doing CYA on this, but the effect is real.


25 Post contains images KhenleyDIA : I never knew that such a little thing could effect a plane that much! Fortunately the airlines don't worry about it too much, otherwise everyone woul
26 Ikramerica : I noticed that too. And no, I've never seen a curved one either. But I bet they exist.
27 Post contains images Beech19 : Much more efficient. That is the key to this plane... fly long and quick and use as little gas as possible.
28 Iwok : Interesting... How does wing flex increase efficiency? Just curious. -iwok
29 DAYflyer : I mean really, how much fuel can you save by going with grey? It seems a bit silly to me.
30 Post contains links Beech19 : The grey is the thinnest/lightest when dry but the purpose it to cause a smooth laminar flow instead of having the airlines livery lines on the engin
31 Ikramerica : Right, but white or red, when formulated right, is going to be quite smooth, relative to the decal/logo/wave airlines might normally put on an engine
32 Beech19 : Agreed. I think the key it to have a smooth surface instead of the decals/logos ect more than just a specific color. BUT Boeing had found that it was
33 Poitin : It takes real talent to screw up the airflow that much, but he managed to do it. You have to put that line exactly in the right place to get that sor
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