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Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight 2  
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 26384 times:

Please continue here from this thread:

Adam Air Flight Loses Contact During Flight (by 9V Jan 1 2007 in Civil Aviation)

152 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRikkus67 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 1684 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 26400 times:

what is the most current information regarding this aircraft?


AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
User currently offline9V From China, joined Aug 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 26390 times:

Indonesian military ships and aircraft have been searching for this passenger plane since it went missing on Monday. Now, excuse my ignorance but why haven't they found it yet? Is it a lack of resources in this part of the world?

User currently offlineBlasphemystic From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 213 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 26365 times:

Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 1):
what is the most current information regarding this aircraft?

No one knows..not even the goverment of Indonesia or Adam Air, and for this reason I think Adam Air should stop all its flight operations untill more is known to what happen to this aircraft.

[Edited 2007-01-04 19:02:47]


The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good. -- Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineKretek From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 26373 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 236):
Yet for the Indonesian Government, it is business as usual and there is no obvious emergency noticeable in its operation.

Can I add the perennial problem of haze, a result of deliberate and illegal forest fires set by farmers and palm plantation companies on the islands of Sumatra and Kalimantan, cause immense suffering and health effects on the local population, and nearby Singapore and Malaysia. The government has done nothing for the past decade and has no motivation to prosecute those responsible nor enforce the law. Despite protests from neighbouring countries and satellite images of hot spots clearly showing who owns that plot of land, they turn around by arguing there were no witnesses on the ground to have witnessed the setting of fires! It is just as HB-IWC said, business as usual.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 227):
Yet I can assure you that the wheelings and dealings of Indonesia are governed by a completely different set of rules.

2 days ago, I flew from Singapore to Surabaya on ValuAir, with mainly indonesian passengers. On boarding, the flight crew announced in both English and Indonesian that boarding will take place according to seat numbers (rear first and front last). This is to prevent passengers seated at the front from holding up others who are seated at the back. In predictable Indonesian style, almost everyone in the waiting area surged to the boarding gate ignoring the seat procedure announcement. Fortunately the crew at the gate prevented this from happening. Then after landing in Surabaya, whilst still taxiing to the gate, I heard several (then immediately everyone) people unbuckling the seatbelts, jumping off the seats and starting to open the overhead bins despite the crew announcing in both english and indon to wait until the seatbelt signs are off.

The point is, there is a lack of discipline amongst indons. Too difficult to explain unless you have lived here. The motto is ' whatever comes by'.

Sorry if i go off topic here, but to illustrate the point: I was driving along a main busy road, 3 lanes, at night. Suddenly, there appeared in front of me what looked like a pole right in the middle of the left-most lane! It's just another shabby job, instead of removing the pole they just left it there and continued asphalting the road. This is the kind of attitude and thinking prevalent in Indon society. Different mindset. It's hard to comprehend for foreigners!



Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 1):
what is the most current information regarding this aircraft?

On local news, still don't know the where abouts of crash site. Singapore and US are helping local authorities with the search.


User currently offline198467 From Singapore, joined Jan 2007, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 26332 times:

Yes, we sent a Fokker-50 search plane over..


When you play, people stare. When you work, people don't care.
User currently offlineJetfan From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 53 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 26333 times:

Quoting ANother (Reply 234):
Interesting article in Flight about IOSA here.

Interesting article, especially the comments on "blame-free reporting". Do you think an independent organization allowing pilots, FAs, rampers and so on anonymously report irregularities would help? This could be located in a country not suspected to have economical, religious or other political interests, which of course appears to be difficult to find.

Maybe ratings based on safety reports, like Mandala499 gave us, could be published and help airline passengers to decide, which risk they want to take. Like Skytrax, but not related to comfort and service, but safety. It's difficult to rate safety based on cabin interior or IFE, but that's what passengers do, lacking other information. Reliable safety information not being available contributes a lot to pax choosing an airline based on fare only.


User currently offlinePtharris From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 282 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 26304 times:

I heard on Oregons 12 (www.kptv.com) this morning that the three only Americans on board were from Bend, Oregon. Sadly that's the only news I've been able to see within the last few days. Man, they've got to find that plane.


If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you.
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4516 posts, RR: 72
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 26231 times:

Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 1):
what is the most current information regarding this aircraft?

We are still nowhere.

Quoting 9V (Reply 2):
Indonesian military ships and aircraft have been searching for this passenger plane since it went missing on Monday. Now, excuse my ignorance but why haven't they found it yet? Is it a lack of resources in this part of the world?

A severe lack of resources and infrastructure - according to today's Jakarta Post Makassar is the only radar in the vicinity there, and it is probably malfunctioning because of lack of maintenance - coupled with stupidity, ignorance and backwardness are likely some of the elements that are dragging this investigation.

As of today, Singapore has sent an aircraft to assist wit the search efforts, but it is unclear whether this aircraft has indeed been deployed. Also the US will soon be involved, according to a statement of the US Embassy in Jakarta. Fact is that the Indonesians, no matter all their blabbering to the contrary, can clearly not get a grip on the situation.

The initial reports that the plane had been found in the morning of January 2, followed by the announcement of 12 survivors by the highest authorities in the country are now the focus of most of the press report. All of the government officials involved in this embarrassing episode are now, in the best of Indonesian traditions, going out of their way to escape any blame.

An interesting tidbit with regard to this false information was a statement by the National Police saying that they would not investigate the false reports. Said National Police Spokesman Brig. Gen. Anton Bachrul Alam: "Lying to the public is not in the Criminal Code. Therefore we will not investigate these false reports." Welcome to one of the world's few remaining Banana Republics!

Meanwhile, operations at Adam Air seem to have resumed normally. One would actually expect a drop in bookings and passenger numbers after this terrible disaster, but not so in here: Adam flights have been going out from Jakarta's Soekarno Hatta airport as packed as ever. I presume that the airline might further drop its prices for a while, which should be enough to keeps the seats from staying empty.

Very disturbing, finally, was an intervention by Indonesia's Vice President Jusuf Kalla, who has openly come to the defense of Adam Air and its management, stating that the airline was for sure not to blame for whatever had happened. Coming from the country's number 2, this statement is very disturbing. One would expect a little bit more common sense from a person is such a responsible position, yet when considering that the Chairman of Adam Air and Speaker of the Indonesian House of Representatives is the Vice President's closest political ally, these statements come as no surprise.

I would presume that, if this disaster and its ensuing mishaps in communication had happened in many other countries in the world, political heads would have long rolled by now. Not so in this country, where political responsibility is a concept as shallow as the bearers of the political offices.


User currently offline9V From China, joined Aug 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 26189 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 8):
the US will soon be involved

This is good news.


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4516 posts, RR: 72
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 26118 times:

Another bit of news that will not come as a surprise for anyone who has ever lived in Indonesia for a while, but which is without any doubt beyond ludicrous to all the others is that the Indonesian Government has today deployed a batch of Mystics to assist in the search for the missing plane.

Now, before you starting ROFL, I couldn't be more serious about this. The Indonesian Government actually has some of these people on the payroll and they dispatch them is all kinds of seemingly desperate situations. These people, up to the highest ranks of government, do indeed believe that a bunch of assorted mystics and paranormals can make a difference in these kinds of situations. It is at the same time the perfect illustration of the kind of backwardness I mentioned earlier that might be hampering the search operation.


User currently offline198467 From Singapore, joined Jan 2007, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 26006 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 10):

Has it been used before and were they success?



When you play, people stare. When you work, people don't care.
User currently offlineLaddb From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 25992 times:

If I am correct, for now they pretty much agree that the plane went down in the water. I do not know what type of pinger was on that plane, but I do know they have very limited battery life. So unless there is a ship or sub within the general area listening for the pinger before the battery goes dead, they won't find it that way. At this point, I'd guess the battery is dead. So next, they must use aircraft to search for debris floating on the surface. I'm actually surprised they have not found any yet, but maybe there are not enough planes searching. Then, using current and wind models, you can predict fairly accurately where the plane went down vs where the debris was found. At that point you start the lawn mower pattern over the area towing a side scan sonar and logging the hits. Each hit is then investigated using an ROV or diver if it is shallow enough. The ROV can also pick up the black boxes. This all takes time, but if you have the resources available, it should already be happening.

User currently offlineElectech6299 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 616 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 25899 times:

Significant, reliable information and one hypothesis from the previous thread:

Quote:

This was the aircraft track according to the press conference last night:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/md11/DSC_0258.jpg
(Photo by Putra Astarto).

Now, after discussions with several pilots, flying from Surabaya to Manado, one would normally file for airway W32... which brings you from Surabaya VOR, to Makassar VOR, then to Manado VOR... But... Normally, pilots would request or ATC would give a shortcut from ENDOG (05-52.6S 117-09.6E) direct to Manado, or the two penultimate waypoints on the route (TAPIR or LUANG).

This should give you a track of 045 out of ENDOG (my chart's out of date)... However, that picture, by looking at the track where it crosses the CTAs, would appear to be on a 038 track out of ENDOG... Now this could be due to weather deviation, which if true, would add to more mystery as to the aircraft's whereabouts because it would have been able to then track direct to Manado after clearing the weather.

HOWEVER, what if the track heading difference was not due to weather deviation... a Navigation error, a repeat of the Tambolaka Incident by PK-KKE earlier last year.

The Tambolaka incident was a case where the IRS gave erroneous readings without raising the alarm to the pilot, which then guided the aircraft astray forcing the emergency landings. Adam Air and in particular PK-KKE has a history of "bad IRS"... poor maintenance of those units have been cited as the problem.

The Tambolaka incident is only possible if the pilots did not tune or allow the radios to autotune to VORs along the route. This would expose the aircraft to IRS errors on a remote area.

Coming back to the current accident, a track of 038 would quickly bring them out of radar coverage at Makassar, and also VOR coverage. Now a correct 045 track, once out of range from Makassar VOR would not pick Manado VOR until within 100NM nor would they detect Gorontalo VOR until about 100NM south of Gorontalo. This info is based on talking to a pilot who used to and one who still fly the route (they're not with Adam Air).

A 038 track from ENDOG would never bring them anywhere in range of Gorontalo or Manado VORs... and the only VOR that came within range is Palu... but Palu's range eastbound isn't too good either, limited to 80NM or so thanks to the mountains, and if you're on W32, you would not be able to pick up Palu VOR.

Now some flight crew still have the habit of not tuning their VORs to enroute facilities or allow their NAVs to autotune... One of the pilots I talked to who fly the 734 admits to occassionally forget tuning the VORs to enroute facilities, or know that his colleague has forgotten about it too. And when they do tune in, they never tune into Palu VOR. With a "bad IRS", this increases risk of straying from the intended route as there would be no FMC position corrections being put in and the sole positioning info would be from the IRUs which are faulty.

And on the communications front, such a track would put them out of range of Makassar Center and Manado Approach... and they possibly had no idea they were close to Palu... Despite having HF frequencies available, the case of PK-KKE showed no information/record that the pilots ever contacted the correct HF radio when they realised they were lost. In the case of KKW, this is again, a possibility...

If the aircraft had indeed made an error track of 038 instead of 045 without intention, the aircraft couldn't have tuned into Makassar VOR when they left ENDOG... a possible reason for this was that the crew didn't tune into it because ENDOG is at the edge of coverage for Makassar VOR, which they were going to by pass by some distance anyways.

From what I heard from friends, Capt. Widodo is a good captain, and I could be flamed for suggesting that this was a inertial nav error due to not tuning into VORs... but again, no one expected a pilot from the DGAC (Indo CAA) making that mistake while on KKE...

If the above could happen, then, I fear, that the search is totally in the wrong area. Following the example of the KKE incident, no one was aware of the problem until they descended. Now, in the case of KKW yesterday, had that error track 038 been taken, the top of descent point would have been past the northern coastline of Sulawesi, with nothing but sea until the Philippines... my greatest fear is that this has happened, and when they descended, they saw nothing but water (which, if on W32, you may see nothign but water at the initial top of descent for a few mins under normal circumstances)... Given the shape of Sulawesi, they may have been lead to believe that they descended early, and decided to press on for a few more miles, which by then would ensure that the northern coast of Sulawesi was beyond the horizon behind them... leaving them no positional reference at all!

God I pray I'm wrong and that they could be found soon! The crew on the flight are known to my friends and colleagues and are good people. I had to comfort a friend who panicked because one of the F/As was his good friend.

God Bless Them!

Mandala499



Quote:
The area only has 1 radar, which is in Makassar, and it only goes to about 100 - 150NM. Now the last radar contact was at 340@100NM... so, there is a possibility that it was still flying and OK when it left radar coverage area...

Mandala499



Quote:
Quote:
But hang on, if I'm not mistaken a distress call was made (assuming that at least that info is correct of course). That should give them a pretty accurate clue about the distance flown (although not necessarily the heading). Is there any more info on this? If the distress call came about halfway during the flight, they wouldn't have run out of fuel (assuming they made no mistake in the fuel calculations, everything is possible here).

As silly as Adam Air is, the ops guys do load the correct amount of fuel, + for the alternates... this is probably the only safe thing in Adam I can vouch for. Flights on that route were given 4hrs fuel endurance as a result, and the information is that the flight that day was no different.

The only things official are:
- Aircraft was given direct to Manado from ENDOG (confirmed in press conference)
- Aircraft reported abeam Makassar at radial 320/80NM MKS @ FL350 (time unknown)
- Last Radar Contact was radial 340/100NM MKS @ FL350 (there was a timestamp on this but forgot when).
- 2 ELT impact signals were received... 1 over the water, another was overland... and quite some distance apart.
- No distress calls were made over the COMMS.

I wouldn't accept any other official explanations without skepticism on any official news that would bring a light of hope after yesterday's debacle!

One thing I still need to check was, apart from 1 GA aircraft, were there any other aircraft within 250NM that was on the expected VHF frequencies.

Mandala499

Link from Jetfuel
http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=8143&size=A

Quote:
Jetfuel, reply 197
I found a news article claiming plane broke up in mid-air causing parts to fall over wide area because the Adam Air Boeing 737-400 emergency beacons are sending signals from different locations


".............The cause of the crash still remains to be determined, but in an interview with Jakarta-based MetroTV, someone called Felix claimed that some months ago some Adam Air pilots were forced to resign because they objected to fly planes they considered unsafe..."



Send not to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for thee
User currently offlineCurmudgeon From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 695 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 25649 times:

From an earlier post:

"I admire the effort, but I suspect FL360 is not going to provide the best results looking for a weak (e.g. underwater, buried in ground, or low battery) signal. Too much interference. 18 hours after the accident- that was the following morning? Nighttime you might have had a chance, but during the day there is too much radio interference."

What are you talking about? There is no difference in interference on 121.50/243mHz day or night. These are VHF signals, and are detectable by line-of-sight rules. An aircraft 36,000' above a signal will hear it from 233 nautical miles. (unless submerged or hidden by hills, etc). If satellites can detect these signals, your "too high" hypothesis is kind of shot.



Jets are for kids
User currently offlineFlyingColours From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2315 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 25536 times:

The ELTs we used to have on the 737s would broadcast on the usual freqs (121.5 etc...) for 48 hours before the battery died. They would also broadcast to satilites for 24 hours after activation.

Either way I find this entire situation appalling and its about time the rest of the world intervined. I mean I've heard of corrupt governments and seen lots of corruption elsewhere but they have taken the entire biscuit tin there.

Phil
FlyingColours



Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
User currently offlineNwafflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1050 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 25436 times:

The thing that totally amazes me is the apparent reaction of the Indonesian people. Yes, I know Indonesia is a third world country, but I cannot understand why Adam Air is not being boycotted by the public. I read the earlier threads on the Indonesian reactions, but personally, I just can't make sense of it at all.

And then, I also wonder if someone in the government knows what has happened -- this is 2007, and with today's technology, combined with the technology of even an old 737, this whole incident makes no sense at all


User currently offlineHmmmm... From Canada, joined May 1999, 2109 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 25275 times:

One possibility is that the aircraft suffered a terrorist bombing. Islamic terrorism has been very active in Indonesia lately. If the aircraft broke apart at high altitude, and fell to earth in smaller pieces, that would make finding it that much more difficult. In that scenario, there is no crash site, so they are looking for something that does not exist. The crash site was at cruising altitude and all you have on the ground are small pieces hidden by the forest canopy.

It could be that wreckage is not found by searchers but by native indians living under that canopy.



An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
User currently offlineJetfuel From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 2254 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 25190 times:

Quoting Nwafflyer (Reply 16):
Yes, I know Indonesia is a third world country, but I cannot understand why Adam Air is not being boycotted by the public. I read the earlier threads on the Indonesian reactions, but personally, I just can't make sense of it at all.

Sadly, it's the way of life. For many Indonesians their fate is in the hands of the gods. Airline travel is safe and they have been reassured by the government that the Adam Air is 100% safe. There have been hundreds killed in ferry sinkings and road accidents are also common. For many money is very limited and they will take their chances to save a few $.

Yes it is much a 3rd world country and with that brings an acceptance of things being second rate.



Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6970 posts, RR: 76
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 24822 times:

Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 1):
what is the most current information regarding this aircraft?

Search is now beginning in the gulf of Tomini south of Gorontalo (the big gulf around MKS 040@400NM)... edging towards my previous hypothesis.
1 RSAF F50 is searching that area, and another RSAF "jet" is (unofficially) reported to begin search "somewhere near N02 - N04 E122 - E124... which is the search area I proposed to the NTSC, though this last one is UNCONFIRMED.

The silly thing is different reports trying to confirm whether the radar in MKS was working or not and there are some who are trying to push the search area to be more focused on the southwest sector of MKS... around the area just after ENDOG... this is despite the last radar report already being in the north west sector (and this is one of the few information that has not changed since).

Quoting Nwafflyer (Reply 16):
but I cannot understand why Adam Air is not being boycotted by the public.

The local travel agency association (ASITA) in if I remember correctly, 3 provinces, have boycotted Adam Air since late last year... this has not reduced the number of pax travelling on Adam Air though.

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlinePalladium From Indonesia, joined Apr 2005, 270 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 24675 times:

what I don't understand is why the pilot insisted to fly when they got a warning about bad weather... i just don't understand.

Well this is just my personal opinion, I have a strong feeling that this is because of the pilot's lack of judgment.

I still don't understand why everything must reside on pilot's decision, why don't let the ATC that made the only decision whether you are good to fly or not.

this way, this kind of accident will never occur.


User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8690 posts, RR: 16
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 24504 times:

Quoting Palladium (Reply 20):
what I don't understand is why the pilot insisted to fly when they got a warning about bad weather... i just don't understand.

Probaly because of scheduling or he may have thought the weather would be clear by the time they reached their intended destination.

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11718 posts, RR: 60
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 24285 times:

Quoting Palladium (Reply 20):
I still don't understand why everything must reside on pilot's decision, why don't let the ATC that made the only decision whether you are good to fly or not.

this way, this kind of accident will never occur.

But having read some of the reports in the previous thread, it sounds like these pilots are being heavily leaned upon to fly no matter what, so I would presume that includes bad weather.

Five days, no sign of the plane, whilst I still hope a miracle occurs, I feel it may be time to send mycondolences to the families.  tombstone 

Dan



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineMohavewolfpup From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 23738 times:

i wonder why these threads about this don't have all the a .net armchair experts and faa "certificate of completion from bobo the ape's FAA child mascot junior inspectors club" going crazy in it.

it's nice not seeing the speculation like what was running rampant in the GOL airliner that crashed and others before, maybe the tide is turning towards quality posts?

keep it up!  Smile


User currently offlineMr.BA From Singapore, joined Sep 2000, 3423 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 23613 times:

I'm no pilot but what can bad weather do to a jet cruising at FL 360? I mean they could have avoided or re-route about the weather? Can bad weather with turbulence bring down a plane like this?


Boeing747 万岁!
25 Kretek : An article in Jawa Pos (Java Post) today said despite the missing Adam Air, this did not have an effect on passengers using Juanda Airport, Surabaya.
26 Curmudgeon : If it was mishandled, yes. It doesn't take much to overspeed at high altitude, nor does it take much to stall if the airspeed excursions are large en
27 Jetfuel : A VERY GOOD QUESTION.... Firstly was the 734 at 36,000? If so WHY? That’s a very high cruising altitude for a loaded 734 less than halfway along th
28 Curmudgeon : I really don't think that mountain wave or lee effect turbulence extends up to FL360 from 10,000 ft mountains. Especially in the tropics. FL360 would
29 Ryanair!!! : I would have waited until any reports or findings were out before passing any statements.. Any fool would know that. Then again, i am not an minister
30 Curmudgeon : Although I should add that the 734 is not thrust limited, and it will easily climb too high for the wing, beyond the coffin corner. EFIS airplanes ha
31 Post contains links Aviasian : This whole episode gets sadder by the day. You would have thought that the blatant lie about having found the wreckage with 12 survivors was bad enoug
32 Post contains images 198467 : Looking at the wrong place again?
33 Lutfi : As others say - can't say I am surprised. Worked in Indonesia for 5 years in total, and "TII" applies (This Is Indonesia). Arsenic in orange juice etc
34 W3ndytj4n : What the hell is going on? Singapore and Manado Airport having two different ELBA signal? This is a terrible situation for the passengers' family. May
35 Post contains images Mandala499 : Indonesia is one of those places which Gordon Bethune would kill himself... Here, it doesn't matter how much cheese you take out of the pizza, people
36 Vimanav : In June 1982 a BA 742 taking off from KUL to PER had a rather unpleasant adventure with volcanic ash. Mount Galunggung (the volcano) located some 110
37 Mandala499 : No volcanic activity or reported ash during the time... so this one is unlikely. mandala499
38 Speedbird128 : Some 732's are capable of F370... Nationwide in South Africa often were cruising F370 on a 500nm sector PLZ-JNB...
39 MD88Captain : Stick shaker doesn't activate at high altitudes. Buffet is your first indication unless you have a nice EFIS aircraft which will warn you in other way
40 Nitrohelper : This is something that people who use dollars in the West need to understand. I learned to compare costs by using the "per day" conversion. I paid sk
41 F9Animal : That is a possibility. But, the authorities have been so quiet, sharing minimal information. Someone stated they made two distress calls. What were t
42 198467 : Not distress calls I think, rather ELT signals instead..
43 2H4 : After reporting that the aircraft had been found, and that there were 12 survivors, I'm not sure what it's going to take to convince me that any info
44 Mandala499 : There's just so many truths, half truths and outright lies that has been spread around, that until the aircraft has been found, one (including journal
45 LTBEWR : What about spy satallites like those of the USA, couldn't they have picked up info and is there someplace a record of this a/c as to when and where it
46 ATCGOD : And you'd like to foot the bill for this? Because we sure know that Indonesia won't. So they can then go to the Russians or Chinese and buy their air
47 RIXrat : Remember, the NTSB is only going to play an advisory role, as well as Boeing. This is an Indonesian-run show, and if there are any announcements to b
48 Hmmmm... : Then it was later claimed that they didn't receive any distress call. Whatever tidbits come from indonesia mean nothing.
49 2H4 : I hear what you're saying. I was just saying that I'll place a lot more credibility in reports from the NTSB than those from the current sources. 2H4
50 Hmmmm... : The directive to fix the rudder power control unit, (AD-97-14-04) did apply to all 737s worldwide and the deadline was August 4, 1999. Usually foreig
51 LTBEWR : Yes, the US Navy or other military forces should participate with others using sophicated equipment the Indonesians' apparently don't have to locate
52 Curmudgeon : Yes indeed, and good point. I think that it is unlikely, but obviously one of the many, many questions that a competent investigation would ask. Give
53 ATCGOD : I highly doubt the other 300 million Americans would agree with you. This is an Indonesian problem, let it stay there. I highly doubt that Boeing is
54 Palladium : is it possible that this plane is crashed not in Sulawesi? is there a possibility that when the aircraft lost contact with the ATC and the pilot still
55 RIXrat : As far as parts sales are concerned, there is the black market or mom and pop enterprises that are well know for duplicating/copying the exact part y
56 AGM100 : Of course the US NAVY should help find the wreckage ... Why would this even be a issue for 300 million Americans? We are currently working 3 737-400'
57 Curmudgeon : This is beside the obvious point that these are Indonesian waters, and an Indonesian domestic affair. That it has been so dreadfully mismanaged seems
58 YVRLTN : This 737 was not operated by Adam back in 99, was operated by BA or JAT back then, so i would feel its safe to say this was corrected - as its owned
59 Post contains links Asuflyer : I don't speak Indon but I came across this. I think it says that a Lion Air 794 received a distress signal. This is probably wrong but could someone p
60 Electech6299 : I have a half-dozen reasons, but I'll try to be breif. The US Navy doesn't operate for free, it is paid for at taxpayer expense. International aid no
61 Post contains links BuyantUkhaa : Latest news: A jetliner with 102 people aboard that disappeared after encountering 130 kph (80 mph) winds over northern Indonesian waters twice change
62 198467 : If this is true, where will the plane be when radar contact was lost? Near MKS?
63 Post contains links Mandala499 : The aircraft involved only joined the Adam Air fleet recently, if I remember correctly, 2005/2006. And if I didn't miss anything, the only 737s that
64 HB-IWC : The whole search and rescue circus set up by the Indonesian Government is by now looking way beyond pathetic. Yesterday saw the first day of operation
65 Electech6299 : It sounds like pilot discontent is becoming an obstacle to the investigation. People don't think clearly when they harbor this kind of resentment aga
66 Jetfuel : The easiest thing is for countries to ban the operations of suspect airlines into their airports.............. (on the basis of not reaching highest
67 Post contains links and images Electech6299 : For those of us not too familiar with the geography, here's a simplified map of pertinent features from this story. The search areas are what I've gat
68 Chiguire : There is one thing that comes to my mind when seeing this map and reading about the way the investigations are being carried out by the Indonesian Gov
69 Morvious : There is simply no way to let a crash site disappear in just 3 days if it did hit the mountains without someone knowing what is going on. The parts w
70 Lostturttle : The one thing that these two threads have taught me is "A Great Difference in cultures still exists around the world!" I have a lot of trouble unders
71 Lutfi : HB-IWC - you said "Isn't there anything the governments of Singapore, Malaysia and others, through their regulatory bodies, could do in terms of enfor
72 Post contains links RobertS975 : Now they are working with psychics to find the plane. I DO feel a bit sad for the buffalo though. http://www.thejakartapost.com/detail...nes.asp?filei
73 BuyantUkhaa : So what about the EU blacklist? That would go against ICAO too then. I'm not saying the regulatory boies in Singapore should do the same, that would
74 Palladium : what if this plane not even somewhere near Sulawesi..... I have a feeling this plane was wayyyy of their original flight plan.
75 Acabgd : Correct, this plane flew with JAT as YU-AOO and I can confirm all 737s operated by JAT were serviced in compliance with AD-97-14-04 (the "Rudder prob
76 Aidan : HB-IWC, while I appreciate your aviation expertise, your comments about Indonesia, its government and its people its neither appropriate nor in the r
77 HB-IWC : Your argument is flawed in that it fails to recognize that there is an inherent link between the sad state of your country's government and instituti
78 Mandala499 : There's a lawsuit going on... The thing is, those who have been in Adam Air or have been familiar with Adam Air, would know that the company is respo
79 Post contains links and images Electech6299 : The water "just to the right" is actually at least 100 miles away. This image is extremely deceiving as to the scale- the displayed area is almost th
80 ZKNBX : Well said HB-IWC from somebody who travels to and from Indonesia twice a year.
81 Post contains images Electech6299 : I didn't mean to say that these people are not correct in their opinions or "label" them. I intended my remarks to address the search efforts only- w
82 Lewellen : First time A.net poster. I think a round of applause is in order for Mandala499, HB-IWC, Aidan, and everyone else who has contributed meaningful insig
83 Mandala499 : Thanks... whether it needs to be separated or not, is not a simple issue. Certain theories need to be based on "habits" of Adam Air, but those must b
84 Post contains links Electech6299 : I noticed another thread regarding (I think) Jakarta's emergency radio receivers? Can't read the article, I'm assuming it's getting attention because
85 Post contains links 9V : Lost plane 'battled 130kph winds' U.S. experts arrived on Indonesia's Sulawesi island Saturday to help investigate the apparent crash of a jetliner th
86 Aidan : HB-IWC, thank you for a much civilize way of discussion. Last time I check this is still an aviation forum. No political, nor religion, nor race shal
87 Post contains links Aidan : HB-IWC, just so we clear on why I call you "shallow", but first apologize to forum member as this may not have anything to do with aviation. I call yo
88 B747-4U3 : You seem to be missing the point. HB-IWC was simply giving some background thoughts about the state of affairs in Indonesia, and how this pertains to
89 LTBEWR : With all of the comments here about this missing aircraft and related recent past incidents with Adam Air, and the discussions of the culture of corr
90 Nwafflyer : There are Americans onboard - I believe 3 people from Oregon
91 Post contains images ATCGOD : What? Uhhh...because they pay for it. Thank you for replying to this point before I could. It's truly a very sad and tragic event but not our governm
92 HB-IWC : Please go back and read and understand my previous posts. I have merely been trying to give an overall idea in what kind of general environment the c
93 Zenarcade : So the plane still has not been found and it has been what six days now? What are the chances of never finding this aircraft, either based on location
94 Hmmmm... : Not in the modern jet era. There was an airline flight that went missing in 1947 over the Andes and was not discovered for 50 years. But that is unde
95 Aidan : HB-IWC, no need for a lengthy explanation. My point is simple. Please stop the name calling, bashing, and the mockery. As I said several time already,
96 Nwafflyer : Please -- please, let us get back to the issue at hand here -- I really don't think anyone meant to insult Indonesia terribly, nor make fun of the Ind
97 Post contains links FoxBravo : A Varig 707 freighter disappeared after takeoff from Tokyo in 1979. See http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/2978549/
98 Siren : FoxBravo beat me to it...[Edited 2007-01-08 02:18:26]
99 Hmmmm... : I wasn't aware of the Varig flight. I guess because it was a freighter jet and not a passenger flight, history has forgotten it.
100 Lutfi : Agree, it is unfair calling Indonesia a banana republic. That would be giving the agriculture ministry too much credit! In Thailand, the govt gives hu
101 Aidan : Lutfi, I love China also, but appreciate if you keep the discussion on the subject. Because is so easy to spot somebody elses flaw than your own.[Edit
102 A3 : Simplified yes, simple no……. Unfortunately when several bad things happen in your country, describing the reasons by someone that sees the things
103 Post contains images PHKLM : You cannot blame people for being proud of their nations; I think a lot of countries have a period in their history that is characterized by events w
104 A3 : Are you referring to my post??? If its so, you got it wrong. I say exactly the opposite. I only point out that they both care for that country but th
105 YLWbased : I totally agree with you. welcome to my RR list. And from my heart to all indonesian, i love your country and i love your culture! Every country got
106 PHKLM : Sorry A3; I should have quoted HB-IWC - because my main argument refers to his posts. Sorry once again.
107 HB-IWC : I don't know what everyone is really getting excited about. I don't have any personal issues with anyone in this discussion, and those of you who can
108 HB-IWC : Metal objects detected to the West of Sulawesi Island In a discovery that might represent a breakthrough in the current search operation for the missi
109 Post contains links ANother : Finally some news: BBC
110 Jetfuel : It's the Indonesian navy saying they have found in three locations, within a several kilometer radius and at a depth of 1,500 meters to 2,000 meters,
111 Pilotaydin : i just found out that TK is giving some of their -400s to Adam Air, that explains why i saw one fully painted in front of our MX hangar on the 1st of
112 Blasphemystic : Could this plane have came down for the same reasons as the TWA flight 800?
113 Pilotaydin : what was the previous registration of this a/c?
114 A3 : 07/11/1992 British Airways G-BNNL 19/03/1995 GB Airways G-BNNL 06/04/2001 National Jets Italy G-BNNL 26/02/2002 WFBN N112TR 04/03/2002 Air One EI-CXH
115 Post contains links Jetfuel : http://www.bernama.com.my/bernama/v3/news.php?id=240208 "....The metal is reportedly at a depth of more than 1,000 metres, about two nautical miles no
116 Post contains images Laddb : You mean a US Navy Missile? You are not serious with this question, are you? Back to topic.... I know, I know - never rely on eye witness accounts. B
117 David L : Exactly. With almost no evidence whatsoever so far, there's not a lot of point in being trying to be too specific or in going for less likely options
118 Post contains images PlymSpotter : It would also potentially rule out these pieces of metal as being the lost aircraft; if it was flying low then how could the wreckage be spread sever
119 2H4 : "Flying low", as defined by two fishermen. Though their reports are likely more reliable and accurate than those of the Indonesian government, I stil
120 Blasphemystic : NO, I was thinking more like the center fuel tank explosion. Im sorry you think a missile brought it down..but i really doubt that.
121 ConcordeMach2 : Thats exactly what came into my head when I read that. If so, then Boeing would probably have to take a look into the design of the fuel tanks of all
122 Zenarcade : I apologize for any future ignorance the next sentense may have. I thought that distress signals were sent. If distress signals were sent, would'nt t
123 NA : You forgot the original operator: 1989-1992 Dan Air London G-BNNL National jets leased the aircraft apparently in full BA colours Does anyone know if
124 BuyantUkhaa : According to Mandala499, distress signal were not received. Most likely that means they weren't sent either - there were other planes in the region t
125 Post contains images ATCGOD : I would have to rule out the center fuel tank explosion based solely on the lack of physical evidence. TWA800 left a massive debris field with burnin
126 Pilotaydin : i fly the 737 and the center fuel tank is only an issue during summer months on the ground for long periods of time and on low-fuel situations....this
127 Dallasnewark : Just to be proud without any justificiations is plainly stupid. You need something to be proud of. Is anyone proud of being a fool? I don't think so.
128 Blasphemystic : If you were following this story closely, you would know that it never did sent any distress signals. It was one of many assumptions made by the Indo
129 PHKLM : As for nationalism it just takes a passport. I, for one, was proud sitting on a Fokker 100 in Brazil. I did not have any reason for that, but still i
130 Zenarcade : Sorry if my comment appeared to be rude. I'm on day number two of quitting smoking cold turkey.
131 Laddb : No I don't - that's why I had the smiley face after that. I did find your assumption that it might be a center fuel tank explosion a bit premature si
132 Post contains links Lostturttle : Last night CNN had a 2 hour special CNN Presents "No Survivors TWA 800" dealing with the center tank explosion. I only caught the last 20 minutes. Th
133 Dallasnewark : When pride interferes with common sense, it is a precursor of stupidity. Why were you proud sitting in a Fokker 100? Any special reasons? I'll repeat
134 Post contains images Blasphemystic : funny you say that, im also trying to quit smoking, its been 3 days... I never did..all it was...was a suggestion.
135 Jasond : Current reports indicate that 'metal' has been found in 3 locations in a radius of 'several kilometres'. An aircraft hitting the water intact would,
136 CX777Fan : Of course the exploding fuel tank is pure speculation, but the conditions you mention could actually be true in this case. Indonesia straddles the eq
137 Post contains images Laddb : Evidently, the USNS Mary Sears will be getting to the site today (Tuesday) and will begin searching. I've done some operations from that ship and she
138 PlymSpotter : Has there been any report yet on weather the metal objects have been located on the sea bed and if they are any wiser as to their identity? Over 8 day
139 Jasond : Thanks for that scenario, I didn't consider that one in my earlier post. It could well turn out that way.
140 SeeTheWorld : Here's an update from Reuters on CNN: "A U.S. navy ship helping hunt for an Indonesian plane missing for nine days should be able to shed light on whe
141 Nwafflyer : What time is it now in Indonesia? Shouldn't there be some news?
142 Post contains links Jetfuel : Whilst the US Navy vessel is still having difficulties identifying the metal on the ocean bed, yet another report re possible sighting http://www.cent
143 Jetfuel : Its just before first light there and the above is all I can find that's newsworthy
144 PolymerPlane : That's a blatant insult to the medical professional in Indonesia. Don't you know that Indonesia has several of the most skillful surgeons in the worl
145 Post contains links and images Jetfuel : I really wanted others to see this photo of Indonesians setting fire to a cardboard model of an Adam Air aircraft Jakarta this week I think it's impor
146 Post contains links SeeTheWorld : MSNBC is reporting that a portion of the tail of the aircraft has been found. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16567269/
147 B747-4U3 : I wasn't saying that Indonesia does not have skillful surgeons. I am sure that like most countries Indonesia has doctors who are both of the best qua
148 Post contains links Anthonyspider : Here is another link re: the found tailfin http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/...ound/2007/01/11/1168105090388.html[Edited 2007-01-11 03:05:49]
149 NZKTBOY : yup a piece of the tail was found by a fisherman
150 Post contains links Jasond : ABC News in Australia are also reporting that a body has been found but I stress the article does say that sources cannot confirm it is that of a pass
151 Jetfuel : sad but good news. The tail part was about 300 metres off the beach so id say the rest is out/down there somewhere. The worry now is will they have th
152 Post contains links PanAm_DC10 : Please continue the discussion at the following thread thank you; Adam Air Flight: Some Debris Located 3
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