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NZ Budget Long Haul Services - Is It Possible?  
User currently offlineCchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1759 posts, RR: 2
Posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3529 times:

I have always wondered if NZ keeps their 767-300ERs (instead of getting rid of them when the 787 arrive) for low cost long haul operations to Asia or USA. Will it work out? There will be people who will be happy to go with no PTV and minimal service if it means saving NZ$300 or so?!

53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3506 times:

Put it this way. From here in Australia the Air NZ 767 product to Honolulu is virtually identical to the Jetstar A330 (which is a facelifted Qantas domestic jet).

Near-identical business class seats cost $6000 return on Air NZ, but $2700 for the same seat desgnated as Star Class on Jetstar. Air NZ has superior catering, but Jetstar gives away noise-cancelling headphones, has in-seat power and gives a personal DVD player.

And in Economy Air NZ gives only 1 inch more legroom.

My point is that Air NZ continues to charge an absurd premium over the competition, but has gradually removed frills (2 inches of lost legroom, no AVOD on 767 and A320 aircraft, insulting food choices on short-haul).

Something needs to happen.


User currently offlineZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7088 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3409 times:

Koruman does have a very good point. The 767 is nothing to write home about. It would be interesting to see Air NZ do a jetstar style operation, however whether it will take off or not is another story I'm guessing.

User currently offlineNzrich From New Zealand, joined Dec 2005, 1521 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3352 times:

Quoting Koruman (Reply 1):
Put it this way. From here in Australia the Air NZ 767 product to Honolulu is virtually identical to the Jetstar A330 (which is a facelifted Qantas domestic jet).

One minor difference DRINKS, FOOD and ENTERTAINMENT is FREE on NZ

So not identical at all plus the 1 inch extra leg room can make a difference also.. But i agree not like the 777 and 744 with AVOD and all ..Would be nice to see a across the board standard on all long haul flights ..Even if they just made business on the 767 and renamed it premium economy !! As its not like the business premier on the 777 and 744 on their long haul flights..



"Pride of the pacific"
User currently offlineNzrich From New Zealand, joined Dec 2005, 1521 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3345 times:

As for is it possible i would say there could be a good chance but it wont be advertised as NZ services it would be freedomair SJ services.

But i doubt its likely soon ..



"Pride of the pacific"
User currently offlineKoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3308 times:

I need to correct NZrich there.

If you buy a Jetstar Star Class return ticket for $2700 from Australia you get:

1. Free food and drink.
2. The same seat as Air NZ Business Class, except with noise-cancelling headphones which are yours to keep.
3. A personal DVD (not on NZ business class).
4. In-seat Power (not on NZ business class).
5. Qantas frequent flyer points and status credits at Business Class rates.
6. Qantas Club lounge access.

It's less than half the price of Air NZ. The only extra you get on Air NZ is better catering. But is a single meal each way worth the extra $3300 which Air New Zealand charges?


User currently offlineCchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1759 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3287 times:

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 3):
the 1 inch extra leg room can make a difference also

Most people would not notice this until they go on the plane.

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 3):
Would be nice to see a across the board standard on all long haul flights

Also on short haul flights. On routes which get 747/777, 767, and A320, one pays the same price but the level of comfort is very different dependent on which flight one chooses.

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 2):
The 767 is nothing to write home about

I don't really care much about inflight entertainment and service. The 767 is reasonably comfortable if you don't need AVOD etc. I think the 767s NZ have can earn them some extra cash if they transfer these birds to SJ and sell the seats cheaply.


User currently offlineKoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3272 times:

Personally, I'd like to see the 4 owned 767s have the same floor strengthening used by Air Canada to enable them to have the Business Premier and Premium Economy products added, say, 18J / 21U / 150 Y, for a total of 189 seats, with all seats enjoying the same in-flight product as the 747 and 777 fleet.

And then I would use them on SYD-HKG-SYD, MEL-HKG-MEL and BNE-HKG-BNE to feed into the 747 service to London.

If Air NZ did that they would be a significant player on the lucrative Kangaroo Route from London to Australia. They already have the rights, they just need a small long-haul aircraft to feed passengers from Australia to the Hong Kong hub.

Alternatively, they could extend from Shanghai (PVG) to London, and fly from Australia to PVG with cheap Chinese crews and costs.


User currently offlinePlanemanofnz From New Zealand, joined Sep 2005, 1675 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3251 times:
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It is obvious that there is market which NZ could tap into using it's 767 for low cost long haul flights but looking at what NZ is currently doing with SJ at the moment, I doubt that any sort of operation will happen.

I could see possible routes being :

AKL-HNL
AKL-KUL
AKL-DPS
AKL-MNL
AKL-KIX
CHC-HKG

Let's also remember that this could happen with 787's next decade.

Quoting Koruman (Reply 1):

Air New Zealand's Business Class on the 763 has a 50" seat pitch as opposed to the Jet Star 38" one. NZ also has an in-built video system in the seat where as Jet Star requires you to watch only movies via a portable dvd player.

In economy Class as said above, IFE, food, drinks e.t.c are all free of charge.

Quoting Koruman (Reply 7):
And then I would use them on SYD-HKG-SYD, MEL-HKG-MEL and BNE-HKG-BNE to feed into the 747 service to London.

I think NZ will do this in the future, but only once the 787's come online.


User currently offlineZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7088 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3228 times:

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 8):
It is obvious that there is market which NZ could tap into using it's 767 for low cost long haul flights but looking at what NZ is currently doing with SJ at the moment, I doubt that any sort of operation will happen.

I could see possible routes being :

AKL-HNL
AKL-KUL
AKL-DPS
AKL-MNL
AKL-KIX
CHC-HKG

If that's the case maybe even a return to places such as SIN and a carry on to YVR from HNL


User currently offlineSunriseValley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4877 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3223 times:

Quoting Koruman (Reply 7):
they just need a small long-haul aircraft to feed passengers from Australia to the Hong Kong hub.

An interesting outline. The still air distance HKG-MEL/SYD southbound assuming -20k winds is about 4200nm. From the load/range charts for this stage length the 767-300ER is close to capable of MZFW which allows plenty of leeway to increase the service ready OEW plus the passenger load that Koruman envisages plus freight.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3206 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 3):
One minor difference DRINKS, FOOD and ENTERTAINMENT is FREE on NZ

But that is included in the price thou

Quoting Koruman (Reply 7):
Personally, I'd like to see the 4 owned 767s have the same floor strengthening used by Air Canada to enable them to have the Business Premier and Premium Economy products added, say, 18J / 21U / 150 Y, for a total of 189 seats, with all seats enjoying the same in-flight product as the 747 and 777 fleet.

That won't happen because it would then reduce the routes that the B763 can fly on. NZ would then have to find an aircraft that can fly the HNL route. I seriously doubt the B763 would even make it as far as HKG with all the extra weight, unless you fancy landing in the sea and swimming the rest with your luggage


User currently offlineFlyboyOz From Australia, joined Nov 2000, 1985 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3191 times:

I thought Freedomair is the low cost international airlines cos it also flies to Australia. Do you think that ANZ will use freedomair to be the NZ budget long haul airlines?

Am i right that ANZ took over freedomair?



The Spirit of AustraliAN - Longreach
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3165 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 12):
Am i right that ANZ took over freedomair?

Ever since SJ started, its been 100% owned by NZ, but run as a totally seperate airline, even thou they work together on routes


User currently offlinePlanemanofnz From New Zealand, joined Sep 2005, 1675 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3136 times:
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Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 9):
If that's the case maybe even a return to places such as SIN and a carry on to YVR from HNL

A couple of weeks ago I would have laughed at the idea of SIN but with SQ downgrading their AKL service, I would not be surprised at all if SIN was a strong candidate. HNL would be a yes but I still think that YVR would be served non stop or via NAN using 777s. Whether or not it will be AC or NZ metal is debatable.

Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 12):
Am i right that ANZ took over freedomair?

No. SJ was started up in the mid 1990's when the low cost airlines first came to New Zealand - most namingly Kiwi. It was NZ's idea that SJ would be able to fly from the smaller towns and provinces and eventually breakdown Kiwi. Eventually this did happen. Since then, other airlines like K2000 have tried and failed.


User currently offlineAntskip From Australia, joined Jan 2006, 927 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3111 times:

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 14):

No. SJ was started up in the mid 1990's when the low cost airlines first came to New Zealand - most namingly Kiwi. It was NZ's idea that SJ would be able to fly from the smaller towns and provinces and eventually breakdown Kiwi. Eventually this did happen. Since then, other airlines like K2000 have tried and failed.

NZ needs to watch carefully how to do it - QF's JQ has a much bigger brief and a growing budget, yet works very closely with its parent company QF. JQ is going to change the skies over the Pacific, the Tasman and perhaps within New Zealand as well over the next few years. I am not confident that NZ and Freedom are ready for it.


User currently offlineAustralia1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3075 times:

Canada 3000 was about to return to 2 class with their A330-200's when SEP11 happened.

They flew

YVR/HNL/BNE/SYD/AKL/RAR/HNL/YVR & reverse evry week. With the exception of RAR, route would work again today with a LCC or charters !!!


User currently offlineKoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3029 times:

My model of the new product on the 767 cuts capacity from 234 passengers to 179. This loses 73 seats and puts in 18 heavy Business Premier beds.

Would that really make it to heavy to still have the range it does now?

Besides, I would see this as part of a model of switching all Pacific services to 777 and A320 operations. The extra 777 capacity would come from extending Shanghai to Europe (and changing from a 777 to 747) and closing Osaka.


User currently offlineCchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1759 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2990 times:

Are there firm plans that the 767s will retire when the 787s come online?

With the 5 767s they own, I think it is good to retain them for routes which are dominated by budget passengers who don't mind an inferior products as long as it is cheaper than other airlines can offer. For example, there are lots of foreign students and immigrants in NZ who will fly the cheapest flights they can find back to their home country in Asia. For some of the China and India routes, and even for a 2nd HKG flight, I think the old 767 is the way to go rather than putting a brand new 787 on. The new 787s, presumably with the new business class and premium economy, can go on routes with more business customers who are willing to pay more for their comfort.


User currently offlineKoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2978 times:

Quite frankly, given that Osaka, Tokyo and Shanghai are all monopoly routes with no competition you would think that they should be the flights with the inferior in-flight product at present, given that passengers have no alternative carrier.

Mind you, I think that the Osaka route is past its sell-by date anyway.


User currently offlineAustralia1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2955 times:

Quoting Koruman (Reply 17):
My model of the new product on the 767 cuts capacity from 234 passengers to 179. This loses 73 seats and puts in 18 heavy Business Premier beds.

I think you're looking the wrong way. According to Boeing site, you can get up to 351 seats on a 763 !!!

On this basis, you get roughly 3 seats instead of 1 business class (not just width, but pitch).

Feel this is the future, especially short term, where pax, esp. Australians are getting used to LCC's & we're heading for a huge recesssion, following on from the huge boom we've had over last 5-7 years !!!


User currently offlineKoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2943 times:

Australia1, I'm talking about a different, more profitable market.

As Virgin Atlantic has shown, you can combine a low cost base with a luxurious premium class product and have big profits.

Air NZ is never going to get more than a couple of hundred passengers per day from Melbourne or Brisbane if it enters the Kangaroo route.

But if 15 of them on each plane are paying Business Premier fares of $10,000 return to London, and another 20 are paying Premium Economy fares of $3,000 then you already have $210,000 of revenue, even before the Economy Class passengers, say 140 at $2000 each or $280,000. This model has a total revenue across a return flight of $490,000, but fuel costs for just 175 passengers.

That was not a misprint. 15 Business Premier and 20 Premium Economy passengers earn 3/4 of as much revenue as 140 Economy passengers. And that is the attraction of Australia as a long-haul market for Air NZ: more companies and leisure passengers which can afford premium class travel.

If you went for your all-Economy no-frills model with fares reduced to $1500 return you would need to sell a minimum of 330 of the 351 seats you mention to raise the same revenue, and that wouldn't pay for the extra fuel for twice as many passengers and their luggage. And seating pitch would be down to 28 inches (from 32 now) which is deeply unpleasant, and would drive down the fares which could be charged to near-charter levels.

If there were 330 passengers per day that Air NZ could attract to fly from BNE and MEL to London they would already be operating 747s on those routes.

Basically it would recreate the Tasman Express fiasco on a long-haul flight, by requiring impossibly high loads to compensate for the unrealistically low yields. And it just can't sustain 95%+ loads day in, day out, which is what such low-cost no-frills models require.

There is a reason why airlines keep premium class seats - even Jetstar International. They are more profitable.

[Edited 2007-01-06 13:19:01]

User currently offlineAustralia1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2851 times:

Quoting Koruman (Reply 21):
But if 15 of them on each plane are paying Business Premier fares of $10,000 return to London, and another 20 are paying Premium Economy fares of $3,000 then you already have $210,000 of revenue, even before the Economy Class passengers, say 140 at $2000 each or $280,000. This model has a total revenue across a return flight of $490,000, but fuel costs for just 175 passengers.

your fares are way too high !!!

LCC long haul can work with lots of Y class, if not saturating market.

Eg. if there's a market that can handle say 50 seats/day, then rather than go twice a week with 180+ seats, go once a week with 350+ seats.

Then find another similar direct route & so on.


User currently offlineCchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1759 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2814 times:

Quoting Koruman (Reply 19):
I think that the Osaka route is past its sell-by date anyway

Their solution seems to be doing AKL-NRT-KIX-AKL with a 772 on Wed and Thu, and flying direct to KIX on Mon and Sat from Apr onwards.


User currently offlineNzrich From New Zealand, joined Dec 2005, 1521 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2802 times:

Quoting Koruman (Reply 5):
I need to correct NZrich there.

If you buy a Jetstar Star Class return ticket for $2700 from Australia you get:

1. Free food and drink.
2. The same seat as Air NZ Business Class, except with noise-cancelling headphones which are yours to keep.
3. A personal DVD (not on NZ business class).
4. In-seat Power (not on NZ business class).
5. Qantas frequent flyer points and status credits at Business Class rates.
6. Qantas Club lounge access.

It's less than half the price of Air NZ. The only extra you get on Air NZ is better catering. But is a single meal each way worth the extra $3300 which Air New Zealand charges?

Sorry I was talking about the economy part of the plane where there are the differences i quoted above..

Star class is actually only like nz's premium economy on the 777/747 but with full economy service instead of the premium meals soon to be offered on NZ and business class wines. But i agree with you something needs to be done with the 767 either redefine the zones upgrade or give them to SJ..

As for your comparison between business and star class a few corrections

1, nz has entertainment about 8 channels that run on a loop not avod
2, seats are different more seat pich on nz 50" compared to 38"



"Pride of the pacific"
25 Planemanofnz : Apparantley, part of the agreement with JL is that if NZ didn't put on the 777's to Japan with the new product then JL would eneter the market and ye
26 Koruman : I never, never thought I would find myself defending Jetstar, but can I just add that although the pitch between Star Class seats is, as many of you h
27 Koruman : Not putting the 777 on Japan routes would make JAL operate the flights? Fantastic! By putting the crappiest planes on the fleet onto the failing NRT a
28 767ER : My god Koruman you were right - you have not mentioned PPT once. I am in shock! In fact, we all are! Cheers mate!
29 Planemanofnz : I don't think you understand. The New Zealand Government actually own the majority of Air New Zealand and NRT is not exactly un-profitable. KIX IS an
30 Nzrich : Hmm but its still a major net loss .. GONE daily 777 sin 2/3 week 767 tpe 2 week 767 ngo 3 week 767 akl-rar-ppt-lax multiple tasman flights A320 ADDE
31 Planemanofnz : While frequencies have been lost, no destinations have been axed across the Tasman. Yet. You can add to that the very important and new daily HKG-LHR
32 Nzrich : That was exactly what i meant to say .. How did i forget that one !! Better add the down grade of LAX-LHR from 744 to 777 and some of the AKL-LAX fro
33 NZ107 : SIN and such airports cannot be compared to such petty airports like Niue. Operations by the 767 WITH ongoing connections (although they might not ac
34 Cchan : No traffic rights between NRT and KIX. The Sat KIX flight will make a stop at CHC, others go direct to AKL. For NRT, the Wed and Thu flights will sto
35 NZ107 : At the rate of NZ at the moment, do you think they will? The Freedomair fares are quite the same.. I'm sure those CX passengers will want meals alrea
36 Nzrich : Originally brought up by planemanofnz in reply 29 about routes dropped and gained ..I agree thou SIN cant be compared to IUE but interesting IUE is s
37 Koruman : AKL-HNL may be a perfect SJ-operated route, but only if its is NZ-coded with NZ Airpoints and frequent flyer points earning for BMI and Lufthansa freq
38 ZKSUJ : There's going to be a second??? Since when?
39 Cchan : In the next few years, NZ will need to decide what to do with their 767s. I wonder whether they will just sell them, or will NZ keep these workhorses
40 Nzrich : Totally 100% agree with this would have to be operated similar to JQ with a premium cabin for the NZ codeshare thou with full service airpoints etc e
41 Koruman : It depends on what you call a Freedom market. I think that the idea of Freedom as a separate brand with no Airpoints or service is stone dead, to be h
42 NZ107 : No no no.. Just a thought if the 767s went to SJ or something similar and if they operated such routes.. I know it's very unlikely to happen, putting
43 Planemanofnz : If you want you can add to that the recent announcment that AKL-NAN-LAX will be upgraded from 763's to 772's aswell. Garuda Indonesia ceased operatio
44 NZ107 : The religious barrier between India and Indonesia would make it quite a difficult route to conquer IMO. AKL-DRW-India maybe..? Oh yeah, my bad. But t
45 Planemanofnz : No traffic at all between Darwin and India! Not enough to justify a 767 let alone a 777 for that matter! It is to my understanding that they had plan
46 RichardJF : On the main trunk the public will demand two brands but that doesn't necessarily mean a competitor. Perception of some level of choice in airlines is
47 ZK-NBT : Thats only 2 of the 3 flights and only for June through to August while the 744 is back on 1/2 which frees an extra 772 during that time.
48 NZ107 : What about CGK-India then?? Anyway most people will be going right through to India with the odd one stopping in DRW and the odd one going DRW-India.
49 777ER : Garuda is quitting all international routes
50 ZK-NBT : Since when? Why not via PER or MEL? Anyway rumour has it that India will be served non stop with a 787 from AKL, weather they do something before han
51 Post contains links WLG787 : There was a rumour that Garuda was going to be cutting all international services from Bali (not international services altogether), however, this lin
52 777ER : Garuda announced this months ago, there was a thread on here about it when it was announced, but I'm having trouble finding it with the current searc
53 ZK-NBT : As WLG787 said it was rumoured that they would drop all International flights from DPS except PER I think. This is currently being reconcidered.
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