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Eads To Reveal "Power8" Restructuring Imminently  
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3971 times:

Quote:
EADS’s ambitious plan to cut costs and rationalise production at Airbus is to begin imminently, with EADS co-chief executive Louis Gallois expected to set out details of the Power8 programme at the beginning of February.

Union representatives have been told that talks on the plan will begin soon at European and French national level...

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...ucturing+programme+imminently.html

[Edited 2007-01-05 16:04:23]

71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3965 times:

Anyone know the signicance of 8 - 8% effeciency gains perhaps?

User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3935 times:

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 1):
Anyone know the signicance of 8

Airbus hit the buffers in June 2006, and 'talks will begin' in February. Maybe it means that EADS/Airbus needs a minimum of eight months to decide anything?  Smile



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3898 times:

FI also commented on this in the blog:
http://www.bizbuzzmedia.com/blogs/flight_international/default.aspx

Quote:
It is not just the effects of the devastating delays to the A380 programme that Airbus needs to offset. It is still facing the challenge of a weak US dollar, an issue unlikely to trouble its US-based competitor.

But analysts are now confident that the company is making a major step in the right direction by focusing on the important initial stages of Power8: winning the support of the unions, which is not likely to be easy, given the nervous reaction of suppliers to the possibility of changes in production strategy, and sorting out the complex split of assembly work between Hamburg and Toulouse.

One analyst points out that the issue of site closures, which will be inevitable if Airbus is to get back on track, will have to be dealt with later on because of the political sensitivities involved.

The new year is sure to bring plenty of hurdles for Airbus, but the news that Power8 is moving forward may be a sign that things are looking up, even if its implementation is likely to be traumatic.


"later on" as in after the French elections?

[Edited 2007-01-05 16:29:20]


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineGRIVely From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3765 times:

If the discussions with the unions and other interested parties are only going to begin in February I don't think the actual plan can be put into effect in less than six months. Especially since there are certain to be major sticking points over which of the sacred animals (German or French cows and British and Spanish calves) are going to disadvantaged by any redistribution of work. I don't look for these complex matters to be resolved in any rapid fashion.

As a matter of fact it should be quite an entertaining spectator sport as the various factions battle it out to make certain none of the revisions fall on the heads of their supporters. I look forward to seeing just how much European comity will exist when the French and Germans are fighting over several tens of thousands of jobs. Of course they can always join forces to sell the perfidious British down the river since everyone knows that after all, they really aren't Europeans.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3725 times:
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Quoting GRIVely (Reply 4):
I look forward to seeing just how much European comity will exist when the French and Germans are fighting over several tens of thousands of jobs.

What a curious pleasure.

You don't think workers and their unions should fight for their jobs?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12564 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3698 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
You don't think workers and their unions should fight for their jobs?

Interesting use of possesive case. Does the employer own the job, or the employee own the job?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinePoitin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3676 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 6):
Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
You don't think workers and their unions should fight for their jobs?

Interesting use of possesive case. Does the employer own the job, or the employee own the job?

You have, of course, put your finger on the real issue. In the US, it is the employer, in Europe, it is the employee. This will lead to fewer jobs in Europe.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3659 times:
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Quoting Revelation (Reply 6):
Interesting use of possesive case.

Interesting parsing of the English language. Do you never refer to "my" job?

I did, when I lived in the US. I was employed by Suchandsuch Corporation. "My" job involved several responsibilities.

My employers seemed to share the view. They would refer to "your" job when speaking to me of my work.

???

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3612 times:

I wonder how far EADS is prepared to go if their plans incur the wrath of the unions and their political supporters. Will they risk "industrial action", including a strike? EADS admits it needs to cut costs. Part of the cost cutting plans will be outsourcing to the "dollar zone". How much pain is EADS willing to endure to make this happen? I guess we'll see this year....


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineBaron95 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1335 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3595 times:

"Union representatives have been told that talks on the plan will begin soon at European and French national level."

When talks "begin" at the European and French "national level", can anything really happen? Just immagine, if after the Boeing production snaffus and the post-9/11 North America aviation colapse, Boeing had to start talks in Washington DC and the various states representing the assembly sites (Washington State, Kansas, etc) to build a "concensus" on what to do.

There is no time. Streiff was absolutely correct. He had the sense of urgency. He KNEW that only in the face of an accute crisis (one whiping out billions from AIrbus) he had a chance to push real governance/production reforms through Airbus.

Soon, the A380 will be in service, the A350 will be in solid design footing, A320s will be continue to pay the bills, A330s will provide some modest proffit, 2006 will be a distant memory, all will be well, no changes will happen.

And then..... Booom....

The $ gets lower, oil prices get higher, 787-10 gets launched, 787-8 and 747-8 enter service, A330/A340/A380 stop selling or sell only at steep discounts, boeing launches 737RS, margins on the A320 get lower, and Airbus really comes under presure. Then you'll need Power 380.

[Edited 2007-01-05 20:39:29]


Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
User currently offlinePoitin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3580 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
My employers seemed to share the view. They would refer to "your" job when speaking to me of my work.

To further parse your language, you obviously thought you owned your employers with your use of the possessive "My employers."

Now, did "your" employers ever give you "your" pink slip?


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3565 times:
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Quoting Poitin (Reply 11):
Now, did "your" employers ever give you "your" pink slip?

Oh, yes. Several times. It wasn't anyone else's pink slip.

Still, if you want a debate about the English language, I'm up for it.

I was always enchanted by the American use of the possessive. It was such fun to hear Amerians refer to "my" procotologist.

 

mariner

[Edited 2007-01-05 20:49:45]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinePoitin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3537 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 12):
Oh, yes. Several times. It wasn't anyone else's pink slip.

Still, if you want a debate about the English language, I'm up for it.

I was always enchanted by the American use of the possessive. It was such fun to hear Amerians refer to "my" procotologist.

I would love to debate American verses several other forms of English, which is great fun, but unfortunately, it would have little to do with "our" A380 debate.

I share your amusement with American usage. Hiberno-English is fun as well.

Back to the thread.


User currently offlinePoitin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3527 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 9):
I wonder how far EADS is prepared to go if their plans incur the wrath of the unions and their political supporters. Will they risk "industrial action", including a strike? EADS admits it needs to cut costs. Part of the cost cutting plans will be outsourcing to the "dollar zone". How much pain is EADS willing to endure to make this happen? I guess we'll see this year....

I think they will try to band-aid the problem. However, much like the Chinese melted down the Iron Rice Bowl, so one day Europe will have to deal with their socialist views. It think Baron95 had the scenario correct in:

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 10):
And then..... Booom....

The $ gets lower, oil prices get higher, 787-10 gets launched, 787-8 and 747-8 enter service, A330/A340/A380 stop selling or sell only at steep discounts, boeing launches 737RS, margins on the A320 get lower, and Airbus really comes under presure. Then you'll need Power 380.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3496 times:
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Quoting Poitin (Reply 13):
but unfortunately, it would have little to do with "our" A380 debate.

Sorry, I thought you meant what you wrote - that it is central the A380 debate:

Quoting Poitin (Reply 7):
You have, of course, put your finger on the real issue. In the US, it is the employer, in Europe, it is the employee. This will lead to fewer jobs in Europe.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10039 posts, RR: 96
Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3489 times:
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Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 1):
Anyone know the signicance of 8

I understand it to be because the full scope of savings (E2Bn PA?..) are due to be realised by the end of 2008.

Regards


User currently offlineGRIVely From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3461 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
Quoting GRIVely (Reply 4):
I look forward to seeing just how much European comity will exist when the French and Germans are fighting over several tens of thousands of jobs.

What a curious pleasure.

You don't think workers and their unions should fight for their jobs?

mariner

Hi, Mariner. I didn't say I took any pleasure in the upcoming struggle. I just expressed that there will likely to be some discomfiting pressures on the concept that there is such a thing as a "European Union" when both the French and German national governments will be wrestling with each other over how many jobs are going to be saved/lost in each respective country.

I also find it intriguing that Airbus, as a purportedly private company, seemingly has to discuss their business strategy with the French and German Governments. Is that a requirement of labor laws, due to the financing arrangements, a traditional case of "Mother May I?" or just why is that? Do the respective national governments have veto power over Airbus business decisions--like golden shares or those kinds of things in certain Asian countries?

Looking for illumination.

Cheers,

GRIV


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12564 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3461 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
Interesting parsing of the English language. Do you never refer to "my" job?

I try not to. "My" job has been taken away due to local market conditions, and it's been outsourced to India as well. If it were "my" job, none of these things would have happened. If it were "my" job, I could trade or sell it, like a landing slot. But it really is not "my" job, it's the employer's, and they can and do take it away at will.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31003 posts, RR: 86
Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3449 times:
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Quoting Lumberton (Reply 9):
I wonder how far EADS is prepared to go if their plans incur the wrath of the unions and their political supporters.

The mood of VW's workers in Wolfsburg is "not good" according to those interviewed now that VW is increasing the work-week at that plant from 28 hours to 33. As the workers were being paid at the German standard 35-hour work week rate and will not receive a wage increase, their hourly wage has fallen the equivalent of 14%.

However, as unemployment in the EU is rising, employers are able to exercise more power over their employees. VW had threatened to "off-shore" production if the workers had not agreed to the new hours. So Airbus may be able to get concessions from their workforce...

...at least in Germany.  Wink

And I should note here that Volkswagen's second-biggest shareholder is its home state of Lower Saxony, which one can imagine has an interest in protecting jobs. More than half the seats on the company's board belong to German politicians and labor representatives, in keeping with a German law that requires big corporations to give workers a voice in governance.

So Hamburg may win more Airbus work if France balks at forcing TLS to become more efficient...


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3408 times:

Is the China deal to co-produce (or assemble) 300 A320s part of Power 8, or just a sales incentive?


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25281 posts, RR: 85
Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3405 times:
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Quoting GRIVely (Reply 17):
I didn't say I took any pleasure in the upcoming struggle.

You said that you were "looking forward to it". To me that implies eager anticipation.

Quoting GRIVely (Reply 17):
Looking for illumination.

It isn't hard to find. Unlike the US, Europe is not yet a federation. So Europe functions differently, as many societies do. Impending major job losses in a major Australian corporation would involve a great deal of "discussion" with government. When there was a possibility of major job losses at Air New Zealand, the NZ government stepped up to the plate with a billion bucks to avert that possibility.

I make no claim as to whether this is "right" or "wrong" - simply that it is different. It seems curious to demand that US laws and practices should apply to a non-US corporation or society.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 18):
But it really is not "my" job, it's the employer's, and they can and do take it away at will.

I work in an industry where there is no such thing as job security. I have, as noted above, frequently received "a" pink slip - but it was "my" pink slip, no one else's.

Just as the job was "mine" for the time that I did the job.

Still, if you want to be pedantic, I suppose one could say that "I did the employer's job" - to which one might ask, why wasn't the employer doing the job?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineRuscoe From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1567 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3319 times:

I just took a look at the numbers and one could excuse Airbus employees for thinking that they should not bear the brunt of "Power 8".

In 2005 Airbus generated nearly 2/3 of the EADs Revenue (22 billion v EADS 34 billion), but did so with less than half of the total employees.( 54680 v EADS total 113210).

Also in terms of the efficiency of their work, and I realise there are numerous parameters unaccounted for, it took 145 Airbus employees to produce one aircraft (54680 employees for 378 deliveries)whereas it took Boeing 171 employees to produce one aircraft. (49591 employees to produce 290 deliveries).

Of course nothing will end the eventual inevitable demise of EADS/Airbus unless the Corporate structure is changed to reduce the political interference down to manageable levels.

Ruscoe


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31003 posts, RR: 86
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3269 times:
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Amazing to realize that when I worked there in 2001, we had almost 94,000 folks in BCA...

User currently offlineBaron95 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1335 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3205 times:

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 22):
Also in terms of the efficiency of their work, and I realise there are numerous parameters unaccounted for, it took 145 Airbus employees to produce one aircraft (54680 employees for 378 deliveries)whereas it took Boeing 171 employees to produce one aircraft. (49591 employees to produce 290 deliveries).

You should have used BCA employee count (if available for the comparisson) or you need to count every rocket, satelite, defense system, military plane, etc that Boeing produced. Efficiency is not even close. Also, Airbus is at the top (record high deliveries) of the cycle, while Boeing is just coming out of the lull (record low deliveries). Add to the mix the fact that Boeing mix has a much higher proportion of widebodies than Airbus, and you get the picture.

Try this as an exercise. Divide the Revenue generated by BCA by the BCA employee count and do the same for Airbus. It will be sobering to you.



Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
25 Ruscoe : Yep that number is the BCA number. Total Boeing numbers are over 100,000. Don't have them in front of me. What you say about number of deleveries does
26 Baron95 : And, until now they used to contribute a disproportionate amount of the profits as well. Though over the next 4 years that will not be so. I do fear
27 Leelaw : According to Boeing's website worldwide employment is 155,000.
28 Ruscoe : Over the past 12 months BCA employment has grown to 56310, for 398 deliveries, making it 141 (down from 171 end 2005 year) at the end of 2006. Total B
29 Poitin : I was referring to our epistemological debate on the possessive case. Of course you are correct on the above point. Europe has a mindset which is inc
30 Poitin : Good point! I doubt that our European friends understand that virtually all workers in the US are "at will" and we actually sign a contract (known as
31 Poitin : Ah, maybe "list price"? Even more interesting would be 2006 Gross Earnings per employee. How many billions did Airbus lose in 2006? It would be nice
32 Post contains images Astuteman : In the last 5 years, the percentage of "contract" workers at our yard employed as you describe has changed from 25% to 75%. The 25% who aren't are co
33 Poitin : You are BRITISH, my good sir! You are an island entire until itself, seperated from Europe by the Channel!
34 Gbfra : In Continental Europa the number of "contract workers" has been increasing significantly in recent years. Even if some of our American and Australian
35 Poitin : Happy to be corrected GBfa, we do get such a distorted picture of Europe from CNN and their coverage of the riots they had in France. And please don'
36 Ruscoe : Av revenue per employee for Airbus (2005) was $486,737 and for Boeing Commercial Aircraft was 456,756. I expect that these figures will strongly swing
37 Post contains links NAV20 : A little more information in this Reuter's article:- http://today.reuters.com/news/articl...0_EADS-AIRBUS.XML&rpc=66&type=qcna Significantly, 'consult
38 Ruscoe : Especially when Airbus efficiency is already quite good. The figures I have been quoting illustrate that there is not a lot of fat in Airbus. The fat
39 Gbfra : [quote=NAV20,reply=37]Any of us who have ever been involved in industry will know that those aims - a 20% increase in productivity COMBINED with large
40 Post contains images Astuteman : As an aside, I think this trend is one of the primary drivers of near incessant road congestion in the UK.. Most manufacturers that I've studied ROUT
41 Post contains images Brilondon : This is the speed of government.
42 Baroque : Keep going with the contrary stats Ruscoe, as Peter Costello and Paul Keating would say, a beautiful set of numbers! Last time I looked, which admitt
43 Leelaw : Weren't Nelson and Collingwood associated with the Battle of Trafalgar? IIRC, weren't they both long dead by the time of Waterloo, which BTW is some
44 Lumberton : The 60 million euro question IMO. I, for one, will wait and see what happens. This could become an issue in the French elections this spring....Witne
45 Post contains images Poitin : So nothing has changed. God Bless the Queen! (Victoria). I guess that makes LHR the Kaitak of Europe.
46 Post contains images Ruscoe : Thats very clever and funny also. Ruscoe
47 S.p.a.s. : Hmmmm, Sounds like a sequel to the infamous TQMS program... Time will tell.. RS PS. Total Quality Management System, a.k.a Time to Quit and Move to Se
48 Post contains links Mariner : And just for the record, that "discussion with government" has already begun in the case of the Qantas take-over: http://www.theage.com.au/news/Natio
49 NAV20 : I think the 'throughput' point is the key, Astuteman. It's one thing to persuade the unions to accept fewer NEW jobs during an expansion. Quite anoth
50 Post contains images Baroque : Oh dear what an error. My only excuse it WAS late at night here. Trafalgar was intended.
51 Post contains images Leelaw : No problem, I've fallen victim to a few late-night brain farts myself. FWIW, when I personally associate the words "Waterloo" and "A380," I'm immedia
52 Post contains images Astuteman : When the Berlin wall came down, defence spending completely dried up, As a consequence, large parts of the steelwork aspects of the Trident programme
53 Post contains links NAV20 : According to Le Echos, there is apparently one more 'if.' Rather a big one. IF EADS management can finally work out what the hell they propose to do.
54 Astuteman : I think we're talking about the same "if". Thet need to have the political will to do this. Although I'm proud of our achievements, our future was in
55 Ruscoe : Good work Astuteman, but I still have my doubts it will work for Airbus. They are currently more efficient than their only serious rival, and I would
56 Post contains images Astuteman : I suspect you're right. We resisted the "social charter" in the UK (rightly IMO, but then as a practicing manager, I guess I would say that ) Indeed.
57 Post contains links and images Baroque : Thanks for your indulgence of my brain short circuit. I wonder if I was subliminally "non-thinking" that Nelson had met his Waterloo before "meeting
58 Post contains links and images NAV20 : I've always rather admired the Australian Civil Service. Individually they don'te seem as high-powered as their counterparts overseas - but there are
59 Post contains images Lumberton : I'm guessing, but I think short-term, EADS may want to emulate what Boeing did to their Wichita operations, sell them and sub contract the work back
60 Post contains images Baroque : Interesting article, looks as if he was reading the same brief as when he talked to Ali whatsername on the 7.30 report. I might be biased by having i
61 Post contains links Leelaw : http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20070109-708523.html
62 Post contains images Mariner : Nugget Coombes younger brother?   Wasn't it Nugget Coombes who put a very succinct case for gvernment "involvement" in the universities? Which could
63 Baroque : QWERTYUIOP strikes again! Better than Nuggey I guess if my finger had strayed the other way! Only noticed after the edit time had elapsed. There was
64 Rampart : I love how this thread veers drammatically from grammar and linguistics to politics to science. Very entertaining yet educational. Just to qualify fo
65 N328KF : Why does Airbus Germany have its own supervisory board? Too many layers!
66 Toulouse : Unemployment is not great at the moment in the EU, but is actuallu quite stable and in general dropping. July 2006 data shows Euro area employment at
67 Post contains links BoomBoom : Of course, in France and Germany, which is where the majority of Airbus job cuts will come from, unemployment is higher. " target=_blank>http://onlin
68 Toulouse : Totally agreed, but as you can see jobless rates are thankfully also falling in France and Germany, yet they are still high. My sources in these exam
69 Post contains links BoomBoom : Quoting Toulouse (Reply 68): My sources in these examples are the CIA World Factbook (from your own country) How about a link? BTW, the CIA is not inf
70 Post contains links Toulouse : That I totally agree with you on! Links: GDP per capita: https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html (seems to be for 2004)
71 BoomBoom : And citymayors.com where you got your rankings from in Post 67 (not the CIA Factbook) shows Zurich and Geneva as the world's two most livable cities,
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