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NW Stand On BDL-AMS  
User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6756 posts, RR: 17
Posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4869 times:

Read it here.

Looks like they are looking at pulling (or preventing, however you want to look at it) traffic from JFK and BOS. They consider shorter customs, less traffic, and potential feed form partners (CO and DL?).

Another interesting part of the information is that BDL-EU is only about 108 daily pax, but NW believes that is under-estimated due to drainage to JFK and BOS.

From reviewing what was stated, this could be done at a lot of airports on the east coast and short midwest.. including CMH, BNA, PIT, RDU, IND, etc.. The possibilities are endless if they are including potential feed from CO and DL.


Aiming High and going far..
35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6449 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4759 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Thread starter):
Another interesting part of the information is that BDL-EU is only about 108 daily pax, but NW believes that is under-estimated due to drainage to JFK and BOS.

Don't forget that NWA is also counting on feed from the other side of the Atlantic via AMS. If this route is like every other trans-atlantic route the Europeans will outnumber the American originating passengers


User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4722 times:

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 1):
Quoting ERJ170 (Thread starter):
Another interesting part of the information is that BDL-EU is only about 108 daily pax, but NW believes that is under-estimated due to drainage to JFK and BOS.

Don't forget that NWA is also counting on feed from the other side of the Atlantic via AMS. If this route is like every other trans-atlantic route the Europeans will outnumber the American originating passengers

I'm sure this will be the case... the europeans outnumber us...

As for NW's 757s on transatlantic routes like this, isn't the block time like 8 hours on the AMS-BDL flight? That's a very long time to be 30" pitch coach on a narrowbody.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineChrisA330 From Canada, joined Oct 1999, 630 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4714 times:

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 2):
As for NW's 757s on transatlantic routes like this, isn't the block time like 8 hours on the AMS-BDL flight? That's a very long time to be 30" pitch coach on a narrowbody.

Y class seat pitch is being increased on the international B757 fleet. 34" IIRC


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined exactly 10 years ago today! , 7533 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4693 times:

Quoting ChrisA330 (Reply 3):
Y class seat pitch is being increased on the international B757 fleet. 34" IIRC

Yep

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 2):
As for NW's 757s on transatlantic routes like this, isn't the block time like 8 hours on the AMS-BDL flight? That's a very long time to be 30" pitch coach on a narrowbody.

Domestic 757's have 31-33" pitch.

Two months ago the flights were already pretty well booked for July.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4537 posts, RR: 18
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4693 times:

Quoting ChrisA330 (Reply 3):
Y class seat pitch is being increased on the international B757 fleet. 34" IIRC

I believe you are correct. Which in this case would make the NW 757 one of the most comfortable coach seats on a transatlantic flight.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3466 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4632 times:

I think their whole theory is flawed. The demand just isn't there and even with feed from AMS connections, BDL-AMS isn't going to pull any passengers from NYC or BOS. NYC-AMS O&D is enough to support at least 5-6 daily flights, and that isn't going to change with new service between Bradley and Schiphol. Are they actually serious that they think people will drive from NYC/BOS to BDL to go to AMS or am I missing something?

Jeremy


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4570 times:

No. They think people from BDL that drive to NYC and BOS will stay closer to home.

NS


User currently onlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7537 posts, RR: 28
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4540 times:

Its mean to pull people from CT, RI, Western MA, and the Northern Suburbs of NYC who currently use the NYC Airport/BOS, but are actually much closer to BDL. Since BDL lacks Trans-Atlantic service, they will drive to the other airports. BDL is a very affluent market with a lot of corporate heaquarters in CT.

User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined exactly 10 years ago today! , 7533 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4295 times:

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 6):
The demand just isn't there and even with feed from AMS connections, BDL-AMS isn't going to pull any passengers from NYC or BOS

that would be why some flights are already sold out or near it.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3411 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4164 times:

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 6):
Are they actually serious that they think people will drive from NYC/BOS to BDL to go to AMS or am I missing something?

they don't think that at all. People who are reside in and are currently driving from the BDL catchment area to JFK or BOS might now choose to use the closer option - BDL.

BTW, you'd be surprised how much traffic to certain markets are leaked from places like BDL and PVD to BOS or NYC...


User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4141 times:

You have a very economically mobile population in CT. (per capita income $43,173 in 2003 making it the richest in the nation). I read that on average 108 passengers per-day traveling on NW to Europe start their voyage at BDL. Now you bring in those taking the train or a shuttle bus to JFK, EWR or BOS and have them depart from BDL and you have one loaded 757. If it is successful, I bet NW will look at either bringing in a 2nd 757 to AMS or even adding a new destination from BDL like CDG or LGW (not sure of the rules on that one).


Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4086 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4105 times:

The point is a good one: You're talking about ONE 757 for goodness sakes. A 707 with two fewer engines. This is hardly a tough plane to fill, so if BDL does lose the service down the road due to low traffic they will have no one to blame but themselves. Anything from Worcester west in Massachusetts is worthy of tapping. BDL will be utterly laughed at if they can't make ONE SINGLE 757 work. Put another way, they shouldn't beat their chests with pride if the route does well, either. This isn't a tough sell...or shouldn't be made to seem like one.

Chris in NH


User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6756 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4092 times:

Is BDL the test market? Meaning if BDL can make it work, would NW test AMS routes form other mid-tier locations?

Just wondering..



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8237 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3982 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Thread starter):
Looks like they are looking at pulling (or preventing, however you want to look at it) traffic from JFK and BOS. They consider shorter customs, less traffic, and potential feed form partners (CO and DL?).

That's obvious. If you live North of East of Hartford BOS is your only option to Europe. What strikes me is not that they will fill a daily 757 from DBL, that's a no brainer but that they think BOS is underserved because they're increasing BOS from 1 to 2 daily flights to AMS in addition to all the daily passengers they're expecting to "pull" from BOS to BDL. In one fell swoop they will tripple the number of non-stop flights between NE and AMS and nearly tripple the number of seats. That's a huge increase in capacity for such a relatively small New England player.


User currently offlineZrs70 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 3132 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3898 times:

As I have asked in the past, does NW plan to offer a VIP club at BDL? Most international C class passengers will expect this.


14 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2013
User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6756 posts, RR: 17
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3869 times:

Quoting Zrs70 (Reply 15):
As I have asked in the past, does NW plan to offer a VIP club at BDL?

IF BDL has a Delta or Continental Room, then NW won't need one.. they will just use their SkyTeam partner's room..



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3835 times:

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 6):
Are they actually serious that they think people will drive from NYC/BOS to BDL to go to AMS or am I missing something?

I think it is the fringe...sure, no one from Manhattan or Brooklyn is going to go to Hartford, but I know some chaps over in Carmel, NY who will. From there into the city is a nightmare traffic wise, now the trick is letting people know there is an alternative European gateway.

If the folks within 75 miles know about it, it will be successful, bottom line.



Delete this User
User currently offlineKPWMSpotter From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 433 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3430 times:

Whether this works or not, I'm all for it.

Northwest is taking a risk that needs to be taken, moving from their traditional Hub and Spoke system to something a little more direct. I know that AMS is still an NWA hub, but regardless, it is allowing a good number of people to avoid the mecca of Trans-Atlantic flights at JFK or BOS.
There are markets like this all around the US domestic and international system, be it the Florida markets from New England, or some trans-cons to smaller cities on either coast. These routes have plenty of people that want to get from point A to point B without having to stop in points C, D, or E. There's money there, they just need to take a risk to tap into it...



I reject your reality and substitute my own...
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4646 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3351 times:

The biggest test here is to see if the business travelers will sacrifice widebody aircraft and flexible times in exchange for a convenient airport...


Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4537 posts, RR: 18
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3313 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 19):
The biggest test here is to see if the business travelers will sacrifice widebody aircraft and flexible times in exchange for a convenient airport...

Nonstop saves time and time is money.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4646 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3195 times:

Quoting Indy (Reply 20):

Nonstop saves time and time is money.

Agreed...but BOS/JFK offer more flexible schedule (dozens of flights and times) to save time...which saves money... also other airports have more business anemities in addition to many flights. So again, will the business travel sacrifice flexible non-stop times and aircraft, to use a more convenient airport. It wil be a very interesting test, if it works perhaps PVD could be a "Phase II" then long tern perhaps an airport like SWF (10+ years...)



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3411 posts, RR: 17
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3052 times:

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 12):
This isn't a tough sell...or shouldn't be made to seem like one.

300K in airport incentives sure make it easier too!!

Quoting KPWMSpotter (Reply 18):
There are markets like this all around the US domestic and international system, be it the Florida markets from New England, or some trans-cons to smaller cities on either coast. These routes have plenty of people that want to get from point A to point B without having to stop in points C, D, or E. There's money there, they just need to take a risk to tap into it...

I couldn't agree more

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 14):
they think BOS is underserved because they're increasing BOS from 1 to 2 daily flights to AMS in addition to all the daily passengers they're expecting to "pull" from BOS to BDL.

If NW really wanted to capture the New England market as a whole, they would have put the 2nd BOS flight in PVD. The only way to combat leakage is to blanket a region that has airports close enough to pull from one another. A 757 in BDL and PVD with the 330 in BOS would protect NW from just about anyone trying to do something else to Europe from PVD or BDL as a way to penetrate the New England market.

Not to mention PVD's FIS is really nice, well designed, and integrated with the main terminal.


User currently offlineSR 103 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1740 posts, RR: 39
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2920 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 19):
The biggest test here is to see if the business travelers will sacrifice widebody aircraft and flexible times in exchange for a convenient airport...

Continental seems to have proved it works just fine. As long as NW goes through with the new version of WBC on the 757, it should do all right. AA and US do not offer a premium product for any real comparison however.

According to the current seat maps, NW's 757's will offer the same amount of legroom in World Business Class as Delta's 763's and 777's in BusinessElite. In fact the WBC seat on the 757 will have a 19.5" seat width which is a full inch wider than DL's BusinessElite seat on the 763.

I say business travelers are only sacrificing flexible times rather than widebody seat comfort.

SR 103


User currently offlineBDL2DCA From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2804 times:

Quoting Zrs70 (Reply 15):
As I have asked in the past, does NW plan to offer a VIP club at BDL? Most international C class passengers will expect this.



Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 16):
IF BDL has a Delta or Continental Room, then NW won't need one.. they will just use their SkyTeam partner's room..

The only VIP lounge at BDL is the USAirways Club, and it is in the "center" pier, not the east pier where NW is. I am sure there is room in east to build a club, but not sure it's necessary for the 16 pax per day who might fly business. BDL's east pier is very nice and there's a lot of lightly used gates so plenty of room to spread out. Course, WN is also in east...



146,319,320,321,333,343,722,732,733,734,735,73G,738,744,752,762,763,772,ARJ,BE1,CRJ,D9S,D10,DH8,ERJ,E70,F100,S80
25 Burnsie28 : They announced that they hope to add a bigger aircraft out of BDL, to me meaning A332 or so.
26 FlyDreamliner : they are discounting this flight too, I believe for connections, because when I was looking at flights to europe for this summer, more than a few tim
27 Airbazar : That's not saying much. You're comparing a non-stop with a one-stop flight. The passengers who bought just AMS-BDL will likely pay more for it than y
28 RL757PVD : the flight is not going to be convenient for connecting pax at all since the flight will arrive to the international arrivals building which is comple
29 Indy : Wow. I thought IND was the only major airport with such a pathetic international arrivals arrangement. Please tell me BDL at least has a jetway on th
30 JFKTOWERFAN : Yes there is a jetway. The building is only 2 years old or so. I can't imagine that it is to shabby, but there is no connection to the main terminal.
31 Azstagecoach : TUS also. Though with 1 AM turboprop it hardly matters for now.
32 Post contains images Airbazar : Geez, both of those make BOS look great. And here I was thinking out setup here at BOS was the worse ever
33 RL757PVD : I hate to sounds biased (even though i live in ATL now) but PVD's is a great set up for a medium suzed airport, its on he lower level directly in the
34 Post contains links RL757PVD : For those wanting a visual reference http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0593081/L/ It is the small box with the jetway with what looks like an A320 pa
35 ERJ170 : RDU is kinda... different, cause RDU has 2 seperate terminals. So only one of the terminals have customs facilities.. so all airlines would have to p
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