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F9 - Near Miss At DIA  
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25000 posts, RR: 85
Posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6551 times:
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Within 50 feet of being ugly:

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_4957824

"A Frontier Airlines plane landing at Denver International Airport this morning came within 50 feet of hitting a small aircraft that had "inadvertently entered the runway" in front of it, the National Transportation Safety Board said."

I'm not sure how the charter "inadvertently" entered the runway.

But great work by the Frontier pilots.

mariner

[Edited 2007-01-05 23:21:36]


aeternum nauta
28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAdam1115 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 63 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6453 times:

Maybe I don't understand how this stuff works, but don't big airports have ground radar? How can a plane be on a runway while ATC is clearing a plane to land???

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25000 posts, RR: 85
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6437 times:
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Quoting Adam1115 (Reply 1):
How can a plane be on a runway while ATC is clearing a plane to land???

I'm not sure. I have been told what happened, but I'm sure there are others here who can explain it better.

I believe the Key Lime aircraft "overshot its parameters".

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineYtib From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 567 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6411 times:

Denver does have ground radar, and just as the controllers warned the pilots they noticed the aircraft on their own. It is included in the link provided by Mariner.

User currently offlineATCme From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 304 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6399 times:

Maybe the radar showed the runway clear when the F9 jet was cleared to land but the Key Lime somehow missed a hold short line or instruction.

ATCme spin 



I'm from the FAA, and I'm here to help. Really. Yes I'm serious, I'm here to help you.
User currently offlineORDRyan28 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 988 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6382 times:

Quoting Mariner (Thread starter):

But great work by the Frontier pilots.

indeed...fantastic work. Could have been fatal...nice job Frontier crew!

Quoting Mariner (Reply 2):

I believe the Key Lime aircraft "overshot its parameters".

 checkmark 

seems logical..



Whoever said winning is not everything never fought cancer.
User currently offlineAirTran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3702 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6376 times:
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I have said it before and will say it again. We are getting nearer and nearer to a disaster. Theses near misses are going to end up costing people their lives soon.


Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
User currently offlineATCme From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 304 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6315 times:

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 6):
Theses near misses are going to end up costing people their lives soon.

How about that incident in the canary Islands with the 2 747s, or the one at LAX in 1991 between US Airways and SkyWest or Comair or the one in FLL between US Airways and SkyWest or Comair (the one thats not involved in the LAX).

This could have been a lot worse, luckily both controller and pilot caught it.

ATCme spin 



I'm from the FAA, and I'm here to help. Really. Yes I'm serious, I'm here to help you.
User currently offlineJSquared From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6116 times:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/01/05/close.call.ap/index.html

Headline news on CNN...

How often do near misses like this occur? Any in recent memory that have been this close?


User currently offlineBicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6043 times:

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 6):
I have said it before and will say it again. We are getting nearer and nearer to a disaster. Theses near misses are going to end up costing people their lives soon.

If you can't accept the fact that there will be accidents, no matter what we do to prevent them, then you shouldn't fly or be involved in aviation. It's human nature to make mistakes, occasionally fatal. In addition, machines break, computers fail, systems go bad. We live our daily lives making and taking calculated risks. It's no different with aviation today. Disasters will happen. It's a matter of when, not if.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5891 times:

Quoting Adam1115 (Reply 1):
How can a plane be on a runway while ATC is clearing a plane to land???

Most likely pilot error by the aircraft on the ground. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I understand it was snowing in DEN at the time.

Bravo Zulu and super flying by the F9 crew being able to abort the landing with such a low altitude, Yikes...50 feet with a A319 descending at 300 MPH in snow.

If the DIA ground radar only pinged the Frontier flight at 50 feet. They need to fix that!! With such a low altitude they would have been just over the runway correct?



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineGreg76 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 30 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5876 times:

It was FFT 297
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/FFT297


User currently offlineJetJeanes From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1430 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5831 times:

I think if he landed at 300 mph on a snowy runway, he wouldnt had much chance even if the other plane was not on the ground


i can see for 80 miles
User currently offlineAdam1115 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 63 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5788 times:

Quoting Ytib (Reply 3):
Denver does have ground radar, and just as the controllers warned the pilots they noticed the aircraft on their own. It is included in the link provided by Mariner.

Well, I did read the Denver Post article, but came here because I didn't trust a Denver Newspaper as an expert in aviation.. I've seen time and time again members of this forum criticize people for trusting 'the media', so I didn't immediately trust the source...

I guess more specifically, if a plane enters an active runway where a jet has been cleared to land, ATC doesn't know prior to them coming within 50 feet of each other? FIFTY FEET??? That is VERY close...


User currently offlineElectech6299 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 616 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5698 times:

Quoting Adam1115 (Reply 13):
I guess more specifically, if a plane enters an active runway where a jet has been cleared to land, ATC doesn't know prior to them coming within 50 feet of each other? FIFTY FEET??? That is VERY close...

50 feet is the closest distance the craft came to each other, as estimated from radar. If the craft were 50 feet apart when they discovered the conflict, this would be a much different story

No response is instantaneous, especially when the engines are at low thrust settings for landing. I certainly don't claim to be an expert, but I would estimate that the Frontier flight had maybe 4 or 5 seconds notice, and had to lean on the throttle and hope the engines could spool up in time. 4 or 5 seconds, BTW, is about 1,500 feet or well over 1/4 mile at approach speed.

Now if the crew was warned by ATC only 4 or 5 seconds early, at around 1,500 feet out, then sometime before that ATC was alerted to the Metroliner's movement in some manner by ground radar, recognized the conflict, decided on a response and called Frontier. That can take another 2-4 seconds on a good day.

Putting this all together, we have about a 10 second string of events that narrowly averted disaster. Yet if this had happened 10 seconds earlier, the Frontier flight would have aborted over a mile out and we might have gotten a 2-line blurb in the paper, if anything. 10 seconds is about all the grace there is in modern ATC operations at a busy airport. That's why pilots have to know ATC procedures at the airport and follow them to the letter.

edit: Key Lime confusion (don't ask...)

[Edited 2007-01-06 06:58:18]

[Edited 2007-01-06 07:00:22]


Send not to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for thee
User currently offlineBrandonb From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5680 times:

Quoting JSquared (Reply 8):
How often do near misses like this occur? Any in recent memory that have been this close?

LAX had a very close call like this a couple months ago.


User currently offlineTsaord From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5649 times:

I heard about this on AM 780 today. Two days ago I heard something about the FAA investing all these near misses more in dept than ever before since there seems to be one too many. Someone from the union I assume of ATC blamed the FAA/DOT on poor working conditions and veterans retiring. Honestly thats what I heard on the radio from the guy who gave a statement.

But I'm glad all turned out well. But I hope aviation safety improves with these "near misses" before an accident occurs that cost people their lives.


User currently offlineElectech6299 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 616 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5593 times:

Quoting Tsaord (Reply 16):
I hope aviation safety improves with these "near misses" before an accident occurs that cost people their lives.

In this case there was nothing the FAA could have done, the ATC complaints about FAA have been going on ad nauseum but that's not related to this thread or this incident.

Based on the press accounts, the Metroliner cargo jet was in the wrong place because the pilot put it there against ATC's direction. I am curious as to whether the taxiway signs were clearly visible- or were they covered with snow? Any Denver A-netters that could help?



Send not to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for thee
User currently offlineAirEMS From United States of America, joined May 2004, 684 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5417 times:

A stupid question: When do you turn on TCAS? and does it work on the ground?

Quoting Electech6299 (Reply 14):
No response is instantaneous, especially when the engines are at low thrust settings for landing. I certainly don't claim to be an expert, but I would estimate that the Frontier flight had maybe 4 or 5 seconds notice, and had to lean on the throttle and hope the engines could spool up in time. 4 or 5 seconds, BTW, is about 1,500 feet or well over 1/4 mile at approach speed.

What no Airbus Afterburners? What fun is that?

Great job by the F9 Pilots no matter how much time they had.

-Carl



If Your Dying Were Flying
User currently offlineGoodbye From Australia, joined Jan 2001, 913 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4516 times:

"Near hit".

A "near miss" means you didn't miss it.

If I "nearly missed" my bus, it means I didn't miss it.


User currently onlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4987 posts, RR: 28
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4481 times:

F9 flight crews are excellent. I am glad that the situation came out good. There needs to be more focus on the airports to prevent runway incursions like this.


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineKPWMSpotter From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 432 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4416 times:

How close to the runway is the taxiway they intended to make a turn on?
With all of the blizzards in Denver as of recently, I could see how the pilots of the Metroliner could miss a turn or not see a sign in the snow.

I'd still put fault on the Metroliner's crew though, they did taxi onto the active and all. The ATC could have seen them on their intended course as they cleared the Frontier jet to land, and not noticed their deviation until the A319 had made its go-around...



I reject your reality and substitute my own...
User currently offlineCptSpeaking From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 639 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4330 times:

Quoting Electech6299 (Reply 14):
No response is instantaneous, especially when the engines are at low thrust settings for landing. I certainly don't claim to be an expert, but I would estimate that the Frontier flight had maybe 4 or 5 seconds notice, and had to lean on the throttle and hope the engines could spool up in time. 4 or 5 seconds, BTW, is about 1,500 feet or well over 1/4 mile at approach speed.

This is a secondary reason for flaps. The drag created by the flaps (and gear for that matter) coupled with approach speeds requires a higher thrust setting, which makes the spool time of a turbine significantly less...

Your CptSpeaking  wave 



...and don't call me Shirley!!
User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3094 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4317 times:

Courtesy: KUSA-TV

Planes Miss Each Other By 50 Feet At DIA

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=62680

Video Report:

http://www.9news.com/video/player.aspx?aid=27889&bw=


User currently offlineTrojanAE From Lithuania, joined May 2006, 90 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4205 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 20):
F9 flight crews are excellent. I am glad that the situation came out good. There needs to be more focus on the airports to prevent runway incursions like this.

I remember reading a recent NTSB study on runway incursions and this seems to definitely be a main focus point for them as one of the main dangers in modern day aviation. The article featured an interesting clip of a reconstruction of an event in which a US Airways aircraft was lost in the fog and came close to entering an active runway as another aircraft was taking off. The controller was quite pissed...



"My soul is in the sky." -William Shakespeare
25 Post contains images Electech6299 : What alarm system is that, the TECAS? Or the stick shaker? Sounds like they are claiming the AMASS system that alerted ATC was on the Frontier plane.
26 GoDIA : Actually, the radar warned the F9 crew at the same time the crew got a visual on the Metroliner...and that the crew saw the other plane when the brok
27 Post contains links Atomother : Maybe if Key Lime Air paid their pilots a good wage instead of taking any bum off the street that can't get a job anywhere else and decides to buy his
28 GoDIA : Well, with a name like "Key Lime Air," what can you expect? Maybe the should stick to making pies!
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