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L'Avion (ORY-EWR) Very Low Loads...  
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9786 times:

It seems the first flights on the new all business airline "L'Avion" -Elysair between ORY and EWR have suffered very low loads factors.(between 2 and 48 passengers..)
The yesterday's flight was cancelled totally (with only two bookings..)


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6756 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9773 times:

Probably because the "all-business class" service to NY is oversaturated. I don't think there really is a market for Paris-NY business. I can see LON, FRA, Japan, and that's about it...

L'Avion need to reconfigure those aircraft and run ORY-"anywhere else East Coast where AF doesn't fly" and try to do a P2P international service...



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9749 times:

The money they invested into this venture would have been more wisely spent on taking over Air Madrid from it's previous owners- that's precisely what LTU have done !
I agree that the market to New York for C class pax is saturated .
You can find C class tickets on Swiss or KLM for 2.200 €return TTC...



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineSafetyDude From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3795 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9725 times:

...or because they only started service a few weeks ago
-started taking bookings one day and the next day started flying
-January is a low time for travel
-Eos and MaxJet had similar low loads at the beginning

I'll wait a bit more before taking load factor too seriously.

-Will



"She Flew For What We Stand For"
User currently offlineAirLittoral From France, joined Sep 2006, 108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9730 times:

Anyway, Marc Rochet has already sunken a few airlines...he can easily do better  Silly

User currently offline123 From Bolivia, joined Nov 2003, 745 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9696 times:

Any link to their website?

User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9693 times:

http://www.lavion.fr/


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineJamman From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 142 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9659 times:

Have these 'all business' type airlines been proven to work? like Maxjet etc, do they make a profit?
Also whats the mentality of the french traveller? will they go for cheap business seats or stick to earning flight miles with more expensive buisness seats on a French carrier for instance?



Phoning it in from a place with no phones.
User currently offlineAirLittoral From France, joined Sep 2006, 108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 9596 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 1):
I don't think there really is a market for Paris-NY business. I can see LON, FRA, Japan, and that's about it...

Yes, there is, definitely. Paris is a huge metropolitan area (over 11-12 million people live there) and one of the wealthiest area in western europe. There is a market to fill a daily 757!

Quoting Jamman (Reply 7):
Also whats the mentality of the french traveller?

I don't think there such a thing as a "mentality of the french traveller"...business traveller or tourist?


User currently offlineJamman From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 142 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 9536 times:

Quoting AirLittoral (Reply 8):
"mentality of the french traveller"...business traveller or tourist?

Perhaps I was a bit too general but what I ment was do the french perfer to fly in business class than standard economy? or are we just looking at men in suits using this airline.
You've kinda answered my question by saying that there is a market for this kind of travel in your prevous post. Thanks.



Phoning it in from a place with no phones.
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 9507 times:

They still offer 999$ roundtrip fares for the first 999 seats from New York to Paris- there are still plenty available-so the bookings seem not very massive...
( so it's 30 % cheaper to fly from US to Europe than the inverse..)



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineMiamiair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 9471 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 10):
They still offer 999$ roundtrip fares for the first 999 seats from New York to Paris- there are still plenty available-so the bookings seem not very massive...

That's if they don't cancel the flight because there's a load of 2 pax only.


User currently offlineFoxXray From France, joined May 2005, 381 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9399 times:

Hum an other typical Beaucaire's topic !

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 1):
I don't think there really is a market for Paris-NY business. I can see LON, FRA, Japan, and that's about it...

What you think isn't very important !

There is definitely a market for this kind of flight on the Paris-NYC route...
EOS had (and maybe still have ?) very low load on their flights to London !

So let time to time...


User currently offline8herveg From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 1174 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9379 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 1):
P2P international service

Could you explain what this is please?


User currently offlineJamman From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 142 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9358 times:

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 13):
Could you explain what this is please?

Point to Point, where airlines fly city to city with out a need to change flight?



Phoning it in from a place with no phones.
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17365 posts, RR: 46
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 9260 times:

It is the first month, they have next to no name recognition, nobody knows what their service actually looks like (at least you can't tell from their website), and the market for standalone premium traffic between NYC and PAR is slim to none.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 9211 times:

Quoting FoxXray (Reply 12):
Hum an other typical Beaucaire's topic !

What is that supposed to mean-what have low loadfactors to do with any of my topics????



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineFoxXray From France, joined May 2005, 381 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 9110 times:

as always you are negative !(mostly with french airlines or industry)
Have you ever seen a new route with 100% of loadfactor on the first flight ?
I don't think so !!! So after only one week of operation, please stop to criticize !

And if they get at least one time 48 passengers on a flight, i think it's pretty good after only one week of operation with a plane which can carry 90 paxs !

L'Avion will or will not make money, we don't know; so wait and see.
(And personally i hope L'avion will work fine.)


User currently offlineStylo777 From Germany, joined Feb 2006, 2952 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 9066 times:

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 11):
That's if they don't cancel the flight because there's a load of 2 pax only.

but that means they was a low booking number on the return flight, too. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense to cancel the flight if the return is book with probably 30-40 pax?!?!


User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 9041 times:

I did never ever mention that I hope any airline will not succeed !
France needs much more entrepreneural spirit in the aviation sector -and l'Avion hopefully makes it.
But the man who steers Elysair has unfortunately not a great record of steering airlines through troubled weather...
It is regretful that France seems to maintain airline-managers that are not in the same league as in the US,UK or Germany -that's all.(there are the usual exceptions tied to airlines like Air France,Air Mediterranée,Airlinair..)
Critizism does not mean desire to see any company fail !



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineFoxXray From France, joined May 2005, 381 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8947 times:

I agree with you, Marc Rochet has nothing to do in the aviation business anymore (he should rather be in prison) ! But for an unknown reason he is still here, so we can just hope that he will not managed L'Avion like he did in the past...

You can criticize M. Rochet but please stop to bash L'Avion after only 1 week !
If the loadfactor is still low in 1 year OK ! but presently only time will tell...


User currently offlineAbrelosojos From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 5076 posts, RR: 55
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8904 times:

I usually agree with Beaucaire - but in this instance, I'd have to say give L'Avion some time. They had lot of drama during the startup and I am sure are just setting the ground. However, they need to advertize. MaxJet and EOS have been very loud in their PR efforts.

Cheers,
A.



Live, and let live.
User currently offlineNcelhr From Vatican City, joined Jul 2006, 357 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8898 times:

Quoting FoxXray (Reply 20):
You can criticize M. Rochet but please stop to bash L'Avion after only 1 week !
If the loadfactor is still low in 1 year OK ! but presently only time will tell...

Whilst I would really wish all the Best for l'Avion, the problem, I fear, is a lack of "buzz" factor for them. I do not know what their advertising budget is like, but before even launching they should have already put together a huuuuge, and I really mean huge, advertising campaign to make themselves known. When Easyjet started, they took every opportunity to plug themselves on TV programs all the time. Same when Virgin Atlantic started. L'Avion's operational start was not as "loud" as others... so no buzz, no high loads.

That said, if they have deep enough pockets they might well succeed! Only problem will be if they encounter a tech problem and get bad publicity from it. Biz Class passengers want to be ontime above everything else.


User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3381 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 8801 times:

Quoting Ncelhr (Reply 22):
I do not know what their advertising budget is like, but before even launching they should have already put together a huuuuge, and I really mean huge, advertising campaign to make themselves known.

I share your opinion. It sounds to me like insufficient investment was put into marketing and advertising the launch of the service.


User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4917 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8732 times:

Loadfactor isn't everything - the yield will be crucial. If the few passengers they have are paying a lot there is a chance they will be doing OK. If some passengers only have 2 passengers then whatever the passengers are paying I guess they will be loosing money but if they have say 30/40 high yielding passengers things might not be that bad


Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
25 Swissgabe : I assume thats why Swiss operates a 6 time weekly BBJ from Zurich to Newark and vv. for quite some time.
26 Breiz : LTU denied today any intention to take over Air Madrid and/or half of its personnel as reported by the Spanish press. LTU is only interested in the t
27 CY319 : very correct points! I would also add that it needs time to take some enterprises on their side and sign travel deals with them instead of AF, DL,AA
28 Swissy : Based on this airlines, I agree..... And there is the answer!!! so I do not know what exactly the problem is.... No one here knows what kind of an le
29 Beeweel15 : Well give them a chance cause they just started. I remember EOS when they started they had very very low loads for a while but they have inproved and
30 Beaucaire : 12/01 46PAX ORY-EWR 13/01 24PAX EWR-ORY 14/01 25PAX ORY-EWR 15/01 11PAX EWR-ORY
31 Post contains images Kevin777 : And eventually they'll share the same fate - I honestly never got the hype of low-frequency, all-C airlines. The established carriers have just as go
32 Magyarorszag : It may have been wiser, but their obvious intention was to enter a different market, with a different product. Time will tell if they've made everyth
33 WDBRR : first of all, I live in the Newark area and I did not know this airline even existed, I have never seen any advertisement on TV or print. secondly, I
34 Post contains links Mbm3 : Try this: http://www.lavion.com/us/
35 Lancastersmail : Was on their web site on Saturday and priced a June Paris trip at $1299 RT; today(Mon) it is $4800 RT..........hello.........what happened to low cost
36 ORDRyan28 : WOW! 2-48 pax, I've heard of low international loads before, but never that low.
37 Timo007 : Does anyone have any new news on how this airline is doing? I noticed they still have their first 999 tickets for $999. I find it surprising that they
38 Jfk777 : The loads seem half respectable for January for a 757 seating 48 people. If I was carrying 25-30 passengers an average flight I would be happy with th
39 Chiguire : I would say (if those are PAYING passengers) those loads are really good after some weeks of operation and little advertising. I just just doubt - fr
40 Post contains images Skyzheimers : what ever happened to the Paris Airport Authority (ADP) no longer allowing Trans- Atlantic Service from ORY? Several US Carriers were forced to move t
41 Timo007 : If you are a French Company, they treat you differently I guess. Just like the sang goes, it is not what you know, it is who you know. Cheers, Timo
42 FlySSC : "Several" ? "Forced" ? DL and AA were the last 2 US carriers to operate to/from ORY. DL moved to CDG early 2000, following its alliance with AF in Sk
43 Gbfra : Umm, no. There is no sense in inviting journalists over a longer period. If you are longing for media coverage you have to invite all the journalists
44 Post contains images Swissy : Actually they have 90 very comfy seats in their GE powered 757 Yep the "freebies" are over and if they keep on digging they will be able to get a sol
45 Magyarorszag : You sure about that ???? These are P&W engines. Cheers.
46 Skyzheimers : as part of ADP's reorganization plan neither Continental which at that time was not in Skyteam yet nor American Airlines wanted to move to CDG... yes,
47 Post contains images Swissy : Sorry my bad!!! yes they are Pee & Wees... , I thought you were out..... but it is good to know I can count on you if I have a hick up... Cheers,
48 Post contains images Magyarorszag : Out ? What do you mean ? In outer space ?
49 Chiguire : Sorry, but I am in this business as well and I had a crazy number of requests over a whole season. It's no problem to bring a nice report of "style"
50 Swissy : Agree with your statement and well I call it political bolony ( bull sh..) if slots are available every airline should be able to choose which airport
51 Post contains images Swissy : Yesss lala land.... just kidding, no I meant gone out with friends.... Cheers,
52 Post contains images Swissy : Apologies if I offended you, I am aware of these request, or I call it "getting for free from A to B"..... , what I try to say is L'Avion needs to fo
53 Chiguire : No problem...maybe all this reminds me too much of last summer in our office (more journalists than passenger requests)
54 Willyj : would they rebook their passengers in business on AF or CO? How many seats do they have on the 757? (90?) and what is the pitch? Are the seats simila
55 Post contains links Timo007 : Doesn't look like the seats are as nice as Maxjet. I believe they have 48 seats in the 757. You can find more at www.lavion.com Cheers, Timo BTW- Doe
56 Goldorak : No, they have 90 seats
57 Timo007 : Goldorak, Thanks for the correction Goldorak. I mistook the 48 as the highest load as the capacity. I guess if the highest load is a little over 50% i
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