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Should Eads Sell ATR?  
User currently offlineTangowhisky From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 930 posts, RR: 7
Posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2246 times:

Now we all know EADS has a cash flow management crisis.

EADS owns 50% of ATR Aircraft. The other 50% is owned by Allenia Aeronatica. ATR is doing well and has been outselling turboprops against its main rival Bombardier. I find it a good time as any for EADS to offload ATR and use that money (it wont be a hell of a lot) to where it really belongs, fix its widebody product line. Now, why would Alenia not be interested? Alenia is part of the Italian Finmeccanica Group. Last year Alenia acquired 25% of Sukhoi Civil Aircraft developing the SuperJet. I am scenting something. If Alenia can end up owning 100% of ATR aircraft (EADS sels its 50% share), it can then make decisions on its own. One GREAT option would be to use the (Western/European) Marketing, Sales, and Customer Support organisation of ATR to help selling the SuperJet to the west - that is Europe and USA. This would add a lot of credibility to the SuperJet as it will have a well reputable sales and customer support organization (the established organization from ATR aircraft). In fact this is what Bombardier did about 17 years ago when it bought de Haviiland so that Canadair' s CRJ sales and support can be handled by an established organisation that knew how to sell and support airlines. I see Italian Finmeccanica Group one smart visionary company.


Only the paranoid survive
14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineLawgman From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2236 times:

Quoting Tangowhisky (Thread starter):
ATR is doing well and has been outselling turboprops against its main rival Bombardier.

Outselling does not = doing well financially. Which size segments are they outselling BBD? What were the orders for last year versus BBD?


User currently offlineFlying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4161 posts, RR: 36
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2218 times:

Quoting Tangowhisky (Thread starter):
Now we all know EADS has a cash flow management crisis.

Where is your REAL proove for this comment? They have some strains on the budget, but to call it a crisis is blowing it a bit out of proportion IMO.

Quoting Lawgman (Reply 1):
Which size segments are they outselling BBD? What were the orders for last year versus BBD?

50- and 70-seat turboprops. Annual figures are not yet fully out, but that´s what I can gather:

ATR orderbook
Airlinair: 1 ATR 72-500
TACV: 1 ATR 42-500, 2 ATR 72-500
NAYSA: 4 ATR 72-500
Finncomm: 3 ATR 72-500
Transasia: 2+1 ATR 72-500
Aer Araan: 10 ATR 72-500
Kingfisher 15+20 ATR 72-500
Precision Air Service: 3 ATR 42-500, 3 ATR 72-500

Makes 4 ATR 42-500 and 40 ATR 72-500 for 2006, which are known. ATR has a habit for not disclosing too many turboprop orders, so there might be a couple of additional orders in we don´t know about.

Bombardier orderbook

SkyWork Airlines: 1 Q400
Japan Coast Guard: 3 Q300
M1 Travel: 2 Q400
Air New Zealand: 3 Q300
Frontier Airlines: 10 Q400
TAssilli Airlines: 4 Q400
Horizon Air: 1 Q400
Luxair 3 Q400
Japan Air Commuter: 2 Q400
Petroleum Air Serivce: 1 Q300
Coastwatch: 3 Q300
Ryukyu Air Commuter: 1 Q300
REGCO: 10 Q400
South African Air Express: 2 Q400
Caribben Aircraft LEasing: 1 Q300

Makes a total of 12 Q300 and 33 Q400, with 6 of the Q300s going to non-airline duties.



Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6485 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2209 times:

Quoting Tangowhisky (Thread starter):
I am scenting something. If Alenia can end up owning 100% of ATR aircraft (EADS sels its 50% share), it can then make decisions on its own.

You're speculating about something that Alenia has gone on record about -- they want to acquire the rest of ATR and use merge it with the support organization that Alenia is creating for the Superjet.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineTangowhisky From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 930 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2209 times:

Quoting Lawgman (Reply 1):
Outselling does not = doing well financially. Which size segments are they outselling BBD? What were the orders for last year versus BBD?

I hope I did not ruffle any Canadian feathers. First I did not say that they are doing well financially. But they did outsell Bombardier on turboprops as follows:

Bombardier Sales: Q1-Q3 2006: 44 A/C, 2005: 61 A/C
ATR: Sales: Q1-Q3 2006: 57 A/C, 2005: 90 A/C

I would say after the Q4 2006 sales are in based on announcements, ATR likely outsold Bombardier in 2006. They are also throttling forward their production.

Getting back to the thread, their sales are improving and the company's value is much brighter than the late 90's when all everyone talked about was RJs.



Only the paranoid survive
User currently offlineTangowhisky From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 930 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2186 times:

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 2):
Quoting Tangowhisky (Thread starter):
Now we all know EADS has a cash flow management crisis.

Where is your REAL proove for this comment? They have some strains on the budget, but to call it a crisis is blowing it a bit out of proportion IMO.

A340 sales are drying up. There is a hiring freeze. They want to increase production rate to 40 A32X per month (gee, I wonder why????). But here is the real cash sucking machine, Airbus is paying penalties when it should be getting check's for delivering A380s. Every business plan has cash flow projections. A program as big as the A380 is as risky as you can get, not for pofitability, but for cash flow management.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 3):
You're speculating about something that Alenia has gone on record about -- they want to acquire the rest of ATR and use merge it with the support organization that Alenia is creating for the Superjet.

Thanks, actually I did not know they went on record. It would be interesting to know if they can cut a deal with EADS.



Only the paranoid survive
User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2162 times:

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 5):
A340 sales are drying up.

The A340 is produced on the same line as the A330. In 2006 Airbus has booked at least 115 orders for the A330/A340 family. Earliest slots for any A330/A340 is in 2009 and beyond.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 5):
They want to increase production rate to 40 A32X per month (gee, I wonder why????).

Airbus currently have an order backlog of around 2,000 frames for the A32X family. Gee I wonder why they want to increase their production.  Yeah sure

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineGaut From Belgium, joined Dec 2001, 344 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2142 times:

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 5):
They want to increase production rate to 40 A32X per month

Airbus denied this statement! They plan is to increase production rate to 36 A32X per month in 2008



«Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae.»
User currently offlineTangowhisky From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 930 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2107 times:

Quoting WINGS (Reply 6):
Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 5):
A340 sales are drying up.

The A340 is produced on the same line as the A330. In 2006 Airbus has booked at least 115 orders for the A330/A340 family. Earliest slots for any A330/A340 is in 2009 and beyond.
Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 5):
They want to increase production rate to 40 A32X per month (gee, I wonder why????).

Airbus currently have an order backlog of around 2,000 frames for the A32X family. Gee I wonder why they want to increase their production.



Quoting Gaut (Reply 7):
Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 5):
They want to increase production rate to 40 A32X per month

Airbus denied this statement! They plan is to increase production rate to 36 A32X per month in 2008

You guys are nit picking away at details and not seeing what this thread is all about. Perhap I should have word it differently. Soooorrry. This is not a thread about bashing any manufacturer (but denying that Airbus having cash flow issues as opposed to they have no cash flow issues would be incorrect IMO).

Now, this whole tread is about new and upcoming stars in the aerospace industry. I am talking about a Pan European-Russian venture here that may start something new and exciting in the industry. That is what this thread is about.

All I am saying is here is an opportunity for EADS to cash in and help Airbus as best that it could. Here is an opportunity for Alenia to help the Russians. And more players, the better. My hope is that Alenia does get 100% of ATR and increase its participation with the Sukhoi company and hope better things come out of it. This would make ATR stronger to compete against Embraer and Bombardier. They may even leapfrog them as the Superjet has a fuselage designed to put 5 seats across. What a great plane to make a 100-150 seater in the long term. What many more exciting threads we can have discussing Alenia-Sukhoi versus A &B's narrowbodies.



Only the paranoid survive
User currently offlineGaut From Belgium, joined Dec 2001, 344 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2090 times:

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 8):
You guys are nit picking away at details and not seeing what this thread is all about. Perhap I should have word it differently. Soooorrry. This is not a thread about bashing any manufacturer

Tangowhisky

I'm sorry you took my remark that way... I just wanted to share the information....

Gaut



«Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae.»
User currently offlineAutoThrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1596 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2048 times:

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 5):
There is a hiring freeze.

I dont think thats true, they said they took as possible decision, but afaik they dont have stopped hiring.

Selling ATR ? No way, this isnt a good idea to give Alenia whole gains and technology. Alenia has also products wich directly are in competition with Eads products. Example C-27 and C-295.

Quoting Gaut (Reply 7):
They plan is to increase production rate to 36 A32X per month in 2008

Yes but with the chinese plant it will be 40.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2013 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2020 times:

Isn't the assembly line in Toulouse? While an Alenia takeover would presumably mean the complication of setting up a new assembly line (in Italy presumably), wouldn't EADS find the the extra space useful?


it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offlineTangowhisky From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 930 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2001 times:

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 11):
Isn't the assembly line in Toulouse? While an Alenia takeover would presumably mean the complication of setting up a new assembly line (in Italy presumably), wouldn't EADS find the the extra space useful?

Here is what is said on ATR's website:
"Alenia Aeronautica's manufacturing facilities in Pomigliano near Naples (Italy), produce the aircraft fuselage and tail sections.
Aircraft wings are assembled at EADS Sogerma Services in Bordeaux in western France for Airbus France.
Final assembly, flight-testing, certification and deliveries are under the responsibility of ATR, headquartered in Toulouse. "

Moving some work to Russia may be an option to reduce costs. I would assume ATR's chief rival has some costs saving with Canadian labor rates and new work moved to China and Mexico for the Q Series turboprops..

Quoting Gaut (Reply 9):
Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 8):
You guys are nit picking away at details and not seeing what this thread is all about. Perhap I should have word it differently. Soooorrry. This is not a thread about bashing any manufacturer

Tangowhisky

I'm sorry you took my remark that way... I just wanted to share the information....

Gaut, no worries.



Only the paranoid survive
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8018 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1942 times:

I think EADS will hang onto its share of the ATR42/72 project. The reason is simple: a lot of airlines are rediscovering the high fuel efficiency of turboprops and the fact the ATR42/72 can operate out of smaller airfields, which makes them potentially highly attractive for operations in Africa.

User currently offlineTangowhisky From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 930 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1922 times:

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 13):
I think EADS will hang onto its share of the ATR42/72 project. The reason is simple: a lot of airlines are rediscovering the high fuel efficiency of turboprops and the fact the ATR42/72 can operate out of smaller airfields, which makes them potentially highly attractive for operations in Africa.

Yes, but isn't this chicken feed for an enterprise for the size of EADS? Doesn't EADS need to fry much bigger fish? Why not cash in and use it to catch the big stuff (A350, A320RS, etc.).

I would say that the only reason EADS will hang on to ATR is for political pressures and not sound business reasons. Ever since BAe, Saab, and Fokker stopped making regional aircraft, European politicians may now feel that giving 100% ownership of ATR to Alenia may not guarantee a future European stake as Alenia does not have as much political manoeuvring behind its agenda.



Only the paranoid survive
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