Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Could AC Use 772LR To Fly Direct To Sydney?  
User currently offlineCtang From Australia, joined Jul 2001, 139 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4707 times:

Could Air Canada fly direct to Sydney from Toronto using 772LR? Are there any plans for this?

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineConnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4685 times:

Great Circle Mapper says 15551 km, so I think the LR can do this.
Might be tough against a headwind though.

The real question would be is there a good market for this or does it make
more sense to use a 300ER both from LAX & YVR, and get the add-on
traffic from Western Canada, YUL, and the US West/South-West ?



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4102 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4671 times:

Big version: Width: 481 Height: 241 File size: 4kb
Toronto-Sydney 9663 miles

At 9663 miles, this would be pushing the envelope of the range of the 772LR. Keep in mind Qantas chose not to go with the 772LR since it would not be able to be effective in getting from SYD-DFW. AC on a YVR-SYD run is more realistic.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31096 posts, RR: 85
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4676 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

She should be able to make it, though there might be some payload restrictions, especially on the westbound(?) flight against the winds...

User currently offlineYYZatcboy From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4590 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CUSTOMER SERVICE & SUPPORT

As a side note, Why when you fly to SYD on AC do they route you through LAX and then codeshare on a UA 744, but return is a 763 direct to YVR. How did that aircraft get there? and why not fly on their own metal out of YVR on an A330/340.


DHC1/3/4 MD11/88 L1011 A319/20/21/30 B727 735/6/7/8/9 762/3 E175/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150. J/S DH8D 736/7/8
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4587 times:

As I've pointed out on another thread on this topic, such a route would require a 77L will all of its aux tanks, and there's no evidence that AC ordered any and no real demonstration that doing so would provide them any value.

One of their 77Ws or 77Ls can fly YVR-SYD nonstop just fine.

NS


User currently offlineChrisA330 From Canada, joined Oct 1999, 634 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4562 times:

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 4):
As a side note, Why when you fly to SYD on AC do they route you through LAX and then codeshare on a UA 744, but return is a 763 direct to YVR. How did that aircraft get there? and why not fly on their own metal out of YVR on an A330/340.

AC operates a YVR-HNL-SYD return daily with a B763. Not sure what you're talking about.

They also operate an A340 in high season.


User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4840 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4562 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 2):
Keep in mind Qantas chose not to go with the 772LR since it would not be able to be effective in getting from SYD-DFW

No, the 772ER/773ER would not be effective on the SYD-DFW route. The 772LR is the most suitable aircraft for this route (until the 787 comes along). The 772LR could operate this with a very good payload. The 772LR is capable of flying 8865nm http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=106 although in most aircraft configs this would be reduced to about 8000nm with decent payload and about 7000nm with full payload. SYD-DFW is 7454nm. QF just didn't want to add another type to the fleet unless it would be capable of flying SYD-LHR non-stop. Expect to see QF use 789 (or a LR version of it) to fly SYD-DFW in about 5 years time.
In fact if the optional 3 aft tanks are fitted, the aircraft can fly with a full pax load 9420nm which would make SYD-YYZ possible.
I don't think however that AC would do such a flight... far more likely a direct flight from YVR or YYC as these 2 airports carry the bulk of Canadian tourists bound for Australia and have excellent connections on to the Middle and East of Canada.
Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

[Edited 2007-01-11 05:10:53]


56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineYYZatcboy From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4540 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CUSTOMER SERVICE & SUPPORT

Quoting ChrisA330 (Reply 6):
AC operates a YVR-HNL-SYD return daily with a B763. Not sure what you're talking about.

They also operate an A340 in high season.

I was doing pricing for a exchange application, so I went to the AC website to look for fares. I looked at YYZ-SYD. The route it gave me was an AC airbus to LAX then transfer over to a UA 744, and the return was a 763. I was asking first off where the 763 came from which you answered. My second question was why did the website not offer the YVR-HNL-SYD routing as another option, or try to get me to do that way first.

BTW it's cheaper to go though LHR on BA, by about 100 or so CAD. (at least it was when I checked)



DHC1/3/4 MD11/88 L1011 A319/20/21/30 B727 735/6/7/8/9 762/3 E175/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150. J/S DH8D 736/7/8
User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4840 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4528 times:

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 8):
I was doing pricing for a exchange application, so I went to the AC website to look for fares. I looked at YYZ-SYD. The route it gave me was an AC airbus to LAX then transfer over to a UA 744, and the return was a 763. I was asking first off where the 763 came from which you answered. My second question was why did the website not offer the YVR-HNL-SYD routing as another option, or try to get me to do that way first.

BTW it's cheaper to go though LHR on BA, by about 100 or so CAD. (at least it was when I checked)

Did you look at AS to LAX and then QF to SYD?
or either AC or AS to LAX then NZ to SYD via AKL? Lots of legroom on those NZ 744s  Smile and the QF service is pretty good too  Smile



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineYYZatcboy From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4498 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CUSTOMER SERVICE & SUPPORT

I dont think AS flys to YYZ  Smile

If I actually go, I'm sure I'll do that. I was just getting a price to put on the form, and thought it was odd.

Cheers
J.



DHC1/3/4 MD11/88 L1011 A319/20/21/30 B727 735/6/7/8/9 762/3 E175/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150. J/S DH8D 736/7/8
User currently offlineORDRyan28 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 988 posts, RR: 16
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4432 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
She should be able to make it, though there might be some payload restrictions, especially on the westbound(?) flight against the winds...

Just what I was thinking. I believe it's in the Worldliner's range, just not a comfortable range. On that specific route, perhaps a stop in HNL would be acceptable?



Whoever said winning is not everything never fought cancer.
User currently offlineYYZatcboy From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4228 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CUSTOMER SERVICE & SUPPORT

What kind of load restrictions would be reasonable for that kind of route?


DHC1/3/4 MD11/88 L1011 A319/20/21/30 B727 735/6/7/8/9 762/3 E175/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150. J/S DH8D 736/7/8
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9149 posts, RR: 76
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4148 times:

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 1):
Great Circle Mapper says 15551 km, so I think the LR can do this.

YYZ-SYD 8505 nm (CYYZ->DCT->LESUB->J16->YXU->J586->CRL->J554->GIJ->J146->JOT->J26
->IRK->J96->SLN->J18->BOLIC->J102->FORPE->J18->GBN->J2->MZB->C1156
->MALIT->C1177->FICKY->B577->TUT->B450->LHI->UH258->SHARK->DCT ->YSSY)

SYD-YYZ 8561 nm (YSSY->DCT->WLM->W149->LHI->B450->TUT->B577->FICKY->C1177
->MALIT->C1156->MZB->J18->SLN->J96->IRK->J26->JOT->J35->OBK->J547
->FNT->J94->ECK->J553->BORDN->DCT->CYYZ)

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 7):
SYD-DFW is 7454nm

SYD-DFW 7632 nm (YSSY->DCT->WLM->W149->LHI->B450->TUT->B577->FICKY->C1177
->MALIT->C1156->MZB->J18->GBN->J50->SSO->J4->EWM->J66->ABI->DCT ->KDFW)

DFW-SYD 7613 nm
(KDFW->DCT->ABI->J66->EWM->J4->SSO->J50->GBN->J18->JUDTH->J2
->MZB->C1156->MALIT->C1177->FICKY->B577->TUT->B450->LHI->UH258
->SHARK->DCT->YSSY)



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4126 times:

It could probably make it but i'm sure they'd rather take advantage of the 773ER cargo capacity than have a largely freightless 772LR flight. Similar to what SA do JNB-US A346 flights.

Will AC be permitted to fly people SYD-LAX if they aren't connecting onto aonther AC flight in LAX?


User currently offlineAA777223 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1249 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4108 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 2):
Keep in mind Qantas chose not to go with the 772LR since it would not be able to be effective in getting from SYD-DFW.

How on earth is it possible that the 772LR can't do SYD to DFW at 7454 nm? I know the range of the 772ER is 7700 nm and the LR to over 9000nm. Is it the ETOPS regulations that keep it from flying the route directly? I just can't imagine that LR can't make the route when it is in the range of the ER! What gives?



Sic 'em bears
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31096 posts, RR: 85
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4102 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 14):
Will AC be permitted to fly people SYD-LAX if they aren't connecting onto another AC flight in LAX?

I'm pretty sure, based on press releases and discussion amongst fellow Star Alliance passengers that AC has Fifth Freedom rights to fly pax directly between LAX and SYD as well as LAX and YVR and/or YYZ (can't remember which city the flight originates and terminates in Canada).


User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks ago) and read 4026 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
can't remember which city the flight originates and terminates in Canada

Canadian airlines have authority from 'any point in Canada'. However the intermediate points in the USA are SFO, HNL and 'another point to be agreed'. So LAX rights are not a given - Australia has to agree.

But I note that GC map posted above shows the track passing almost directly over NAN. To avoid US customs, immigration and security hassles for transit passengers AC could operate via Fiji.


User currently offlineAccargo From Canada, joined Sep 2004, 610 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks ago) and read 4026 times:

It really doesn't matter if technically the acft can fly the route, AC won't fly YYZ-SYD non-stop. There is a reason AC announced YYZ-LAX-SYD, it's all about profitiblity, it just isn't there on a non-stop YYZ-SYD.

User currently offlineBmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3883 times:

Don't see much of a market anyway for a direct YYZ-SYD flight. And yes the 772LR would be practically on fumes by the time it crossed the Great Barrier reef. The current YVR-SYD and proposed YYZ-LAX-SYD makes much more sense.

I have flown YYZ-YQY in just over 2 hours!!! Yes you can fly to Sydney, NS non-stop from YYZ.

[Edited 2007-01-11 18:18:57]


The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31096 posts, RR: 85
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3746 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting ANother (Reply 17):
Canadian airlines have authority from 'any point in Canada'. However the intermediate points in the USA are SFO, HNL and 'another point to be agreed'. So LAX rights are not a given - Australia has to agree.

Thank you.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25626 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3473 times:

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 7):
I don't think however that AC would do such a flight... far more likely a direct flight from YVR or YYC as these 2 airports carry the bulk of Canadian tourists bound for Australia and have excellent connections on to the Middle and East of Canada.

The problem with Canada-Australia is that it is largely a low yield tourist and visit friends and relatives market. There's very little high-yield business traffic. It's also very seasonal; not many Australians want to visit Canada in the middle of the Canadian winter and vice versa for Canadians who prefer other destinations during the Canadian summer. And it's a much smaller market than the US.

QF has never been able to make an ongoing success of their service to Canada. They've come and gone several times, and tried different routings, mostly the less risky option as an extension from SFO, but for several years in the 1980's as a stand-alone route SYD-HNL-YVR about twice a week with 747s. And for a few years in the late 1960's-early '70s, they even tried a SYD-PPT-YVR route with 707s with no stops in the US (most people have long forgotten that YVR once had nonstop service to PPT). For a brief brief period in the 1990s QFalso served YYZ. The current off-and-on seasonal extension from SFO, ironically the same rout used when they commenced service to YVR in the mid 1950's, is a pretty weak effort. (As a matter of trivia, QF does hold the distinction of being the first scheduled jet operator at YVR, with their early 707-138s in 1959, also an extension from SFO once a week or it may have only been every two weeks then.)

There's been continuous Canadian carrier service Canada-Australia since Canadian Pacific commenced YVR-HNL-NAN-SYD service in 1949, their first interenational route (YVR-TYO-HKG began a few months later). The NAN stop was dropped when CP moved up from DC-8s to DC-10-30s about 1980. And during CP Air's and successor Canadian Airlines' final years of service prior to the merger with AC, they were operating YYZ-HNL nonstop, connecting with the YVR-HNL-SYD service at HNL. AC dropped the YYZ-HNL nonstops after they took over.

For the almost 60 years of continuous Canada-Australia (and periodically, also New Zealand) direct service, I doubt it's ever been more than marginally profitable for the reasons mentioned above. That's why AC wants YYZ-LAX-SYD, to benefit from the much higher proportion of high-yield business traffic to/from the US. It's also less seasonal than Canada. I doubt nonstop YVR-SYD is very high on AC's priority list for their new 777s. They'll use those largely on the profitable North Pacific routes to Asia initially.


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5712 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3399 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 21):
There's been continuous Canadian carrier service Canada-Australia since Canadian Pacific commenced YVR-HNL-NAN-SYD service in 1949,

This is simpley incorrect! YVR-SFO-HNL-Canton Is-NAN-SYD/AKL services were started in 1949 by BCPA an airline jointly owned by Oz, NZ, Canada & UK. CP & QF service started in 1952/3 when BCPA was broken up.

CP own plane service to Oz/NZ stopped in the late1980s/early1990s when QFs to YVR also stopped.(I don't have exact dates). From then on CP flew YVR-HNL & YYZ-HNL, QF flew SYD-HNL and NZ flew AKL-HNL. Schedules were coordinated and all four aircraft were on the ground together at HNL, exchanged pax then departed for home.

This continued until NZ joined *Alliance and pulled out. CP then sent one aircraft on from HNL to AKL 2 or 3 times a week. The arrangement with QF continued until the AC take over when it was terminated and AC commenced own plane service to SYD.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3391 times:

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 15):
How on earth is it possible that the 772LR can't do SYD to DFW at 7454 nm? I know the range of the 772ER is 7700 nm and the LR to over 9000nm. I

Its all about effective payload. The 777-200LR can only fly 9000nm with tanks fitted. Its standard range is 8400ish nm.

Fitting tanks is not really good for payload.

NS


User currently offlineAA777223 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1249 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3324 times:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 23):
Its standard range is 8400ish nm.

Fitting tanks is not really good for payload.

...Still far greater than 7454 nm...



Sic 'em bears
25 Gigneil : It would fly SYD-DFW grrreat. The question is DFW-SYD, and whether it can against those winds. NS
26 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : Thanks for the clarification re the interruption of CP service south of HNL between April 1991 and 2000, replaced during that period by the joint cod
27 Post contains images Gemuser : If this is correct, then I stand corrected! I will check with the author and editor of the BCPA corporate history, but relying on memory alone(admitt
28 Viscount724 : Thanks. As mentioned, I don't like to trust Wikipedia but couldn't find any other source re BCPA's ownership. Look forward to any correction if you c
29 ClassicLover : The current Qantas fact file on their web site (December 2006) states that the extension to YVR at the moment is the first step to restoring daily ser
30 Multimark : Not true actually. There is a relatively large market of Aussies who come to ski Canada in our winter.
31 Wolfy : Internal Source ... A345 will be used on YVR-SYD non-stop once YYZ-HKG gets B772LR.
32 Viscount724 : But still low yield traffic. The relative lack of business traffic between Canada and Australia has always been a problem on that route.
33 Planetime : Correct! There is more market when you get the pax coming in from US/Canada thru their LAX feed... and more profitablity. SFO,JFK,are the only other
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
What Equipment Do They Use To Fly To HKG? posted Fri Jan 31 2003 18:15:31 by A380
Which Airlines Did Use To Fly To Iraq? posted Sun Dec 15 2002 14:10:00 by Flying Belgian
AC Jazz To Fly To New Mt-Tremblant Feild posted Wed Oct 16 2002 21:00:18 by Lymanm
Etihad To Fly To Australia posted Sun Jan 7 2007 15:32:15 by Vhqpa
F9 To Fly To HUX For Apple Vacations posted Fri Jan 5 2007 03:51:49 by NZblue
Qatar Airways To Fly To Dar Es Salaam posted Wed Jan 3 2007 16:56:11 by Omoo
AC E90 To Fly SAN-YYZ This Winter. posted Tue Dec 12 2006 11:03:03 by SANFan
Which Airlines Can I Use To Fly DCA-ACY posted Fri Oct 20 2006 08:57:36 by BOACVC10
Is There Room For AC To Fly Nonstop YYZ To KIX? posted Thu May 18 2006 04:05:46 by AirCanada014
Delta Could Use 2nd Daily ATL To Rio Flight posted Mon Mar 13 2006 09:21:03 by Jumbojet