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Lan Argentina Delays And Strike  
User currently offlineUSADreamliner From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2058 times:

From La Nacion, in spanish:

http://www.lanacion.com.ar/informaciongeneral/nota.asp?nota_id=874384

Trabajadores de la Asociación de Personal Aeronáutico (APA) en conflicto de la aerolínea LAN Argentina realizaban un paro sopresivo y bloqueaban esta mañana el mostrador de atención a los pasajeros en el Aeroparque Metropolitano.

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineClydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1978 times:

What are they Striking over? Can you translate?

User currently offlineUSADreamliner From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1913 times:

Well, I'm not very good translating, but apparently the Ground Personel initiated the strike blocking the check-in counters. Flights are operating with delays of 45 minutes ( since the ground personel is on strike but not the pilots or flight attendants).

Sorry for my english, wish I could do a better job translating.


User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4964 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1880 times:

Quoting Clydenairways (Reply 1):
What are they Striking over? Can you translate?

Basically they (ground staff) are striking because they did not recieve a AR$300 payment (about US$100) that the company had promised to pay.
Nothing to worry about too much. Besides, 45 min. delays with an airline on strike is not too bad  Wink



Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlineLVTMB From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1793 times:

Quoting Clydenairways (Reply 1):
What are they Striking over?

Two reasons were mentioned in another thread: an apparently promised and unpaid yearly bonus, and the fact that -- listen to this one -- union leaders claim that 4M advertises their A320s as new when in fact they were transferred from CC. What a pile of crap!

MB


User currently offlineGabo787 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2006, 154 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1780 times:

Union leaders here only care about their own good, they really don't care about the workers.
It's not only in the airline industry but in every business here in Argentina.
All that they want, is to collect money from the health funds that the unions handle.


User currently offline777jaah From Colombia, joined Jan 2006, 1403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1706 times:

I know this is off topic, but I was on 1/02 in MIA and the guy in the AV counter told me that the 4M flight to EZE on 12/28 had to go back to MIA a few minutes after take off because the skipper suffered a stroke. At the time, he was kept in intesive care unit and his wife flew from Buenos Aires to be at his side, unfortunately, he was still unconcious. The counter guy was also argentinian and knew the pilot, so that's why he knew all the story. Also he said that obviously the flight took-off again 5 hrs later or so with the same crew that had brought the airplane from EZE. Is this old news for everyone or just were a fake story (of course, nothing funny in it). If true, anyone knows the condition of the pilot??

JAAH



Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
User currently offlineTBCITDG From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 921 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1685 times:

Has it ever occurred to some of my fellow A netters that APA had been following the "legal" channels to pursue a condition that was promised to their personnel prior to any strike action having taken place. Keep i mind that it was not a spur of the moment decision and that the correct processes where taken before they walked out of their jobs.
Also one must keep in mind that 4M has had a woe full relationship with all the unions that it has been negotiating with.
They are still trying to change the working conditions of all it's staff so that they are in par with the "dictator" style management that is observed in the likes of LA!
This is why LA is known by it's own employees "no el encanto de volar si no el espanto de trabajar"

Maybe 4M thought that it could flex it's muscle in Argentina just like it did in Chile and Peru?
Who knows?


User currently offlineMD11junkie From Argentina, joined May 2005, 3146 posts, RR: 58
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1675 times:

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 3):
Basically they (ground staff) are striking because they did not recieve a AR$300 payment (about US$100) that the company had promised to pay

They were receiving it, but the company chose NOT to pay it.

Union leaders are now saying that the 4 A320 units in 4Ms fleet are "rejects" from LAN Chile and LAN Peru and they are not the most modern as they claim. I find this particular point way off topic and nothing to do with the claim.

One interesting thing the Union Leader, Mr. Llanos, said is that the company should have by now 14 airplanes for domestic routes - in accordance to the agreement they signed with the Government. However, they have only 4 A320s, of which 3 are dedicated to the domestic portion, while the remaining one does EZE-GRU-EZE-SCL, all day long. This really cripples the fleet.

Quoting Gabo787 (Reply 5):
Union leaders here only care about their own good, they really don't care about the workers.
It's not only in the airline industry but in every business here in Argentina.
All that they want, is to collect money from the health funds that the unions handle.

I think you are mixing up Mr. Cirielli, Pappalardo, Moyano, Daer and Perez Tamayo (etc) with real union leaders.

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 7):
Has it ever occurred to some of my fellow A netters that APA had been following the "legal" channels to pursue a condition that was promised to their personnel prior to any strike action having taken place. Keep i mind that it was not a spur of the moment decision and that the correct processes where taken before they walked out of their jobs.
Also one must keep in mind that 4M has had a woe full relationship with all the unions that it has been negotiating with.

Thank you for being the only one that noticed this, TBCITDG.

LAN Argentina has had an awful start with its unions. Firstly, because of the "capital simulation" charge they were accused of. Then, paying the LOWEST salaries in the Argentine market (for airlines), getting as low as a fourth of the pay-check in the exact same job at rival AR/AU. This gets on the unions nerves. During the first half of the year (2006), 4M had 80% of its fleet on the ground. During that period of 5 days, 4M tried to fire two chief maintenance officers because of "not releasing" the aircraft for operations as they were "No Go". The Unions protested, the got defeated again.

This history of repeated abuses against their workers is being seen BADLY by the public opinion.

Now, LAN, gets the only union that was still willing to sat at the table before even threatening to strike, against. I just don't know what's it with those idiots at Costa Salguero.

Quoting LVTMB (Reply 4):
leaders claim that 4M advertises their A320s as new when in fact they were transferred from CC.

That's true. LV-BET is ex CC-COO/VP-BCS with LAN Peru. And so on. Info is available in other sites.

Gaston - The MD11junkie



There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
User currently offlineLVTMB From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1661 times:

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 8):
That's true. LV-BET is ex CC-COO/VP-BCS with LAN Peru. And so on. Info is available in other sites.

No question about the truth of the fact. However, taking industrial action because of it is absolutely ludicrous! At the end of the day, whether the ships are transfers from CC or factory-delivered brand new birds is none of the union's business.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 8):
4M tried to fire two chief maintenance officers because of "not releasing" the aircraft for operations as they were "No Go".

That is a disgrace! An obvious sign of the complete lack of regulatory oversight.

MB


User currently offlineUSADreamliner From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1622 times:

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 8):
Union leaders are now saying that the 4 A320 units in 4Ms fleet are "rejects" from LAN Chile and LAN Peru and they are not the most modern as they claim. I find this particular point way off topic and nothing to do with the claim.

So, what? How "old" can they be? Older than the "new" AR 735? Older than the 732 already flying for M4? C'mon!
The Unions are a mafia. They have no respect for the passengers or their employers. It's an argentinean tradition.


User currently offlineArcano From Chile, joined Mar 2004, 2406 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1612 times:

I think there are different subjets here:

1. If Lan promised money and further denies it I think it's absolutely fair the employees strike. You cannot toy with people like that. Period.

2. I think it's a little childish to regret about the fleet. all those 320 are brand new from Airbus to LAN. Lan Argentina has the modernmost fleet in Argentina and you poeple cry for they weren't "new". Come on... LAN even turned all domestic fleet to 320 while their native country, CHILE, still flies 732s...
It's true, although a little tricky, to claim those 320 as new, since LAN brought them directly to airbus.
AFAIK, ther are only 1 320 bought used, from Nikky Airways. After flying it myself you can totally tell the difference, unless it was already refurnished as some other 320s.

3. LAN has to honor their commitments. I think it's a matter of review by Argentine authorities is some scheduled expansion has not been acomplished yet...

Quoting LVTMB (Reply 4):
Two reasons were mentioned in another thread: an apparently promised and unpaid yearly bonus

But are we totally certain about these? Most companies pays bonus, but only after achieving goals. Are we sure this is not why they didn't pay?

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 7):
Maybe 4M thought that it could flex it's muscle in Argentina just like it did in Chile and Peru?

Excuse me, what muscle has been flex in Chile?

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 7):
They are still trying to change the working conditions of all it's staff so that they are in par with the "dictator" style management that is observed in the likes of LA!

Like?

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 10):
So, what? How "old" can they be? Older than the "new" AR 735?

That's what I meant

Quoting Gabo787 (Reply 5):
It's not only in the airline industry but in every business here in Argentina.

Kind of true as well, isn't it?

Regards, and please, don't read me as defender of an airline that every day is dissapointing me more...

)(Arcano



in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773 and 380
User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4964 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1596 times:

Quoting Arcano (Reply 11):
2. I think it's a little childish to regret about the fleet. all those 320 are brand new from Airbus to LAN

I agree, the 320's were all delivered from Airbus to LAN in the final months of 2002, so they are basically only 4 years old.



Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlineTBCITDG From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 921 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1566 times:

Like:
Cabin crew having to clean every inch of the cabin after each sector as opposed to having catering do it
Like:
Some pilots where told to fly MIA-EZE-SCL all in one go!
Like:
Checking off on Aircraft even though MEL's where not up to scratch and if you don't you are shown the door.
Like:
Cabin crew working ex Chile even though they had no "legal work papers" to do it
Like:
Bringing Chilean Managers to work in Argentina as opposed to having the current qualified staff doing it themselves

Just some examples that come to mind

Arcano:
As is always the case, this is not a personal attack on LA. I simply feel that 4M and it's parent company LA are trying to change the labour conditions in Argentina. Remember when in Chile they fired all those pilots during industrial action? That is an example of things that LA are famous for. No proper crew rests on long haul flights (SCL-AKL!!). Minimum rest times for all their staff. and so forth.
Now they where trying to get away with not paying check in staff their entitlements!

Cheers from SYD!


User currently offlineArcano From Chile, joined Mar 2004, 2406 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1508 times:

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 13):
Bringing Chilean Managers to work in Argentina as opposed to having the current qualified staff doing it themselves

And Coca Cola Chile division is running by a US citizen... big deal, companies making business abroad DO have native managers and it has nothing to do with lack of confidence in local capacities...

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 13):
As is always the case, this is not a personal attack on LA.

Hey, read my post above. I'm getting dissapointed about LAN everyday more. Attack it all that you won't, but stay cold. You can't post that of the chilean manager as if other companies don't do that! that's twisting facts...

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 13):
Remember when in Chile they fired all those pilots during industrial action?

In Chile pilots are not able to strike, by law. So again, don't you see you are posting with half of the facts?

I really mean, I won't defend LA and I don't feel attacked anyhow. But stay in facts, stay in the talks of a business.

Regards )(



in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773 and 380
User currently offlineTBCITDG From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 921 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1464 times:

Arcano:
You are comparing company leaders with middle management. Those maintenance workers that I was talking about where brought over illegally to oversee and check off on aircraft even though they had Argentine staff to do the exact same thing. I am not talking about "big chiefs". If those things happen in Chile, great for you, but the laws in Argentina have to be protected.

Thanks for pointing out the "fact" that pilots have no right to strike. In no way where my intentions to skew the facts.

LA just as 4M are known in Argentina and in QF as well for their terrible working conditions. I have spoken to many LA crew and they themselves live in a "state of fear" for if they speak up, they will surely loose their jobs.

4M was not prepared to have thing so easily when they started operations in Argentina, this is why I made a reference of "flexing their muscle" Understand?
LA has the strength in Chile to say "if you like it great, if not, there goes your contract". But things are different in Argentina. People in 4M have a right to protect their conditions. As I mentioned before APA went through all legal channels before they chose to strike.
And the payment was not "in condition to performance" or anything like that.

Cheers from OZ!


User currently offlineArcano From Chile, joined Mar 2004, 2406 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1461 times:

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 15):

Nothing to say. Agree 100%



in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773 and 380
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