747hogg From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3013 times:
I had the same thing happened in 1983 at Denver on a UA DC-10.. At the friggin' gate with doors closed, waiting for the third de icing and runway to clear. NEXT time you become cattle being held by an airline, fake a medical emergency! Screw these greedy people, it's your life, and they can't hold you in order to prevent your precious dollars from evaporating. Refuse to be held hostage and get out of that plane if you want to! Demand your freedom, and never let these creeps do this over and over, the reg's are meaningless as far as I am concerned... Ether you get the damn thing up and fly it, or park it and let the people have a choice with what they want to do. I will never again fly AA and I fly every week. These airlines are totally out of line, if a pax wants off and it screws the operations up of the A/L tuff chit! We are the customers and call the shots when we are forced with sitting on a small jet for a total of 12 freaking hours! Mostly with no food, water, and the honey pots overflowing with the pungent funk that we all know so well.
Cessna057 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 439 posts, RR: 2 Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2850 times:
Ok. Obviously you are not a pilot, and obviously you escaped from the ward. but lets turn the main down skid row. you paid for a ticket and were warned of this. if you want to get up and do stuff like this, then dont buy a ticket and go drive to where ever it is. and buddy, you sound like the greediest person out there right now, faking a med emergency.
My advide. Back on the meds, and dont fly.
Hold it . . . Hold it . . . HOLD THE FREAKIN NOSE UP!!
YHMYYZspotter From Canada, joined Sep 2006, 197 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2819 times:
HAHA reading these "waiting 8 hour" posts always makes me think about waiting in your car in a traffic jam for 8 hours in the same spot. Then getting out of it 8 hours later and driving another 3. I would be finding any way possible to turn around and take another route. But you would think the cops would find a detour in 8 hours OR fix/remove the block so traffic can move freely again. Sort of the same senario I guess. Just my rant there haha.
Zvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 65 Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2798 times:
I've been in a 10.5 hour hold and I'll just say that I can see both sides of it. At the very least, at some point, (I'd say about four hours), they need to give the passengers a choice. They also need to provide food and water and empty the lavs.
Analog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2564 times:
Quoting YHMYYZspotter (Reply 4): HAHA reading these "waiting 8 hour" posts always makes me think about waiting in your car in a traffic jam for 8 hours in the same spot.
Does that ever happen? Maybe for an hour, but 8? Almost never, except in the case of huge accidents. Even then I'd be surprised if people were stuck in the same spot for 8 hours.
Holding pax on the ground for > 8 hours w/o food, water, or functioning bathrooms is completely unacceptable, especially when the capability to offload the pax exists, which it always does. This kind of situation could very easily cause serious health problems or death (say hypoglycemic shock for diabetics, dehydration, etc. etc.)
This makes me wonder; what are the symptoms of a "full" toilet on an aircraft? What are pax expected to do, use the floor?
Memphis From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 143 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2485 times:
How hard / what consequences would / could the airline endure, if they did "release" the pax back into the terminal? Lets say, your in the same 1983 scenario, and after about 2-3 hrs, the capt. comes over the P.A. and mentions the obvious, we are getting no where, so, I'm going to ask to me mated back up to the jetway and those that want to disembark, can, but be back on the A/C within 45 minutes, and listen to the terminal P.A. incase a spot opens up and we can get going sooner, all right? I'm sure that doing this would smooth alot of things over, obviously, the airlines do not control the weather, this could be one way to accomodate the pax. Would there be any security issues in doing this? Would this over-tax the gate agents? BTW, if your were on a plane, on the ground in a hold for 8 hrs, do you even fly anywhere after the hold was expired? Seems to me like the crew would have timed out and then they would at least have to let the crew off, and find a new one.
Analog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2305 times:
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 9):
That becomes an issue if they go back to the gate and open the door, but is not an issue as long as the door is closed.
Using this distinction for safety (crew time-out) is crazy (IMO) There's something wrong with the rules if the fact that a door is open or closed makes the difference. Not that I can think of a better way. This rule encourages keeping passengers hostage.
747hogg From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2240 times:
I suppose many of you are not aware of this flight I am refering to, an AA flight, It happened a few months ago and was recently on dateline. Aside from my totally miserible experence at the hands of UA, several other "hostage incedents" involving desperate people, the elderly, babies and others being incercerated in sealed aircraft for incredible amounts of time. Once a load of pax acually called the CEO of NWA at his house (someone on board was a member of hs country club and had his #) and told them they were being held hostage and were calling the local media. Think it's the right thing for these greedy airlines to do? Great, I can't wait until you spend endless hours in a tube stuffed with pissed off people and crying babies begging to get off while you sit and watch the rampers growing old before your very eyes. I read where congress was going to investagate this some years ago, but this incident proves otherwise. As for the coward with the Vietnam remark, sorry... I served with the 101st Airborne Div, 501st Infantry. Vietnam 1968 and 1971.
Zvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 65 Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2200 times:
Quoting AA767400 (Reply 15): Man with all that anger you have built up inside I suggest you take it to Congress.
I find it interesting that the posters who've never been in such a situation have such strong opinions and are so quick to villify those of us who have been there. In my case, a lot of passengers lost their patience. The most annoying part of it for me was being lied to by UA. Specific lies included that we would be served a meal onboard, that there would be baggage handlers working at our destination so that we could get our bags. We were given a chance to fly the next day and many of us would have had we known the truth.
AA767400 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2271 posts, RR: 25 Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2161 times:
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 16): I find it interesting that the posters who've never been in such a situation have such strong opinions and are so quick to villify those of us who have been there. In my case, a lot of passengers lost their patience.
I have been stuck on a plane for 5 hours in ORD with nothing to go by. Let me tell you that it was not pretty, and I was non-reving. I can only imagine how they Crew was dealing with complaints,harrasment, and ridicule from a bunch of New Yorkers.
But who were you stating that have not experienced such a situation?
Hush-Kit From Germany, joined Sep 2000, 124 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2073 times:
Ok, 8 hrs on hold on the ground ain 't cozy, as described. But did anyone of you thread poster recall 9/11, thousands of pax were stranded in nowhereland, and many thousand pax weren 't allowed for 8-10-12 hrs or even longer to leave their plane. Many of them not knowing what the heck was going on, just rumors that were spreading inside the planes...So, all the folks complaining so bitter come down back with your feet on the ground, many many people would love to have your "problems"...
btw: I recently was kept almost 1 .5 hr in an AA MD80 about 300 ft away from the gate because the gate was blocked and AA counldn ' t find operating staff so quick to get that 737 whick blocked the gate pushed back, I relaxed and started a nice chess game... just an advice...AND THERE WAS NO NEED TO SEE MY COUNSELOR...
Cory6188 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2686 posts, RR: 6 Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2006 times:
Quoting Hush-Kit (Reply 19): I recently was kept almost 1 .5 hr in an AA MD80 about 300 ft away from the gate because the gate was blocked and AA counldn ' t find operating staff so quick to get that 737 whick blocked the gate pushed back, I relaxed and started a nice chess game... just an advice...AND THERE WAS NO NEED TO SEE MY COUNSELOR...
That's hardly the 8 hours that the pax aboard the AA flight referenced had to endure. I don't exactly think it's fair to draw any sort of comparison between the two...
NorthstarBoy From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1713 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1993 times:
I boycotted America West after a similar situation got me so fed up i actually got off the airplane. (being held hostage on the airplane for 2 hours, no information given on even an approximate departure time, no updates given, even just to say "we're in communication with operations, they're watching the situation, we'll be out of here just as soon as we possibly can, sorry for the delay") what i've realized in the ten years since that episode is that the crew themselves are being held hostage by a clearance, when they get a clearance, that thing they've been waiting for for the last six hours, they may have only 15 minutes to get the airplane off the ground to make their window. Now imagine, if they let everyone off to mill around the terminal, and operations comes through with a clearance they've been waiting for, they have two choices, either go with the plane half empty to make that all important window, or give up the clearance and hope another one comes through, or they can take the lesser of two evils, keep everyone in their seats, so that when the clearance comes, they can go NOW! because clearances, when they come, wait for no one. when it comes, you'd better be ready to go or you're back on the bottom of the list.
It's not pleasant or comfortable for the passengers, but that is, unfortunately, sometimes how it works, the comfort and dignity of the passengers are sacrificed for the sake of getting the airplane to it's next destination expediently.
I could have elite status if I wanted it, but flying the same airline all the time is boring.
747hogg From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1798 times:
This is why I get on my crippled knees at night, and thank Capt. Jesus for the Asian airlines! Respect, dignity, Selflessness, and a SINCERE appreciation for your business is what even the most lowly economy pax receive. Nothing comes before your comfort and safety... Any chance we can get AA to move to NRT and have JAL take over the US flights? One hour flight? Here sir, enjoy this healthy meal (well, perhaps not that good) but when are we going to demand some rights and start cranking open those exit doors when after endless hours of snorting the over flowing funk, and the screaming babies.... while other planes come and go all around? (research this AA story on yahoo..the airport was wide open) flying now has become as miserable if not worse than the greyhound.
Eugdog From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2001, 516 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1697 times:
8 hours on hold sounds absolutely horrendous - allowing passengers to leave is not very easy - all their baggage has come out with them. If one passenger leaves they have to search for his baggage in the hold or take out all the baggage pallets to find the bag.
I would like to know the legal position - can an airline detain people on an aircraft?
Tommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6172 posts, RR: 9 Reply 23, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1608 times:
When I was flying in May 2006 from MSY-MIA-EWR on we had to divert on my first flight MSY-MIA because of severe thunderstorms in the Miami area. Our 738 circled for nearly 3 hours and then diverted to Fort Meyers for fuel. We were not allowed to leave the plane, and ended up being stuck onboard for 7 hours total, eventually being allowed to fly in MIA later that night. However, the F/As were very kind and kept serving drinks and showing films over the IFE system.
My outbound EWR flight was cancelled for the night. This was not surprising because MIA was in total chaos when we arrived. AA put me on a flight the following day over their telephone reservation system. The agent was very helpful, and this was before I made Gold. If you sweet-talk an agent they are going to help you out more.
The best thing to do in a situation like that is to be patient. Being angry in a somewhat claustrophobic environment isn't going to help anybody, and will most likely piss off the other travelers surrounding you. Sure breathing recirculated air for 7 hours sucks, but sometimes you have to suck it up when you run into a travel headache (no pun intended.)
"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
747hogg From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1580 times:
VERY good question! and the crux of this thread... When can the A/L detain you by force when the plane is sitting on the ground and the jetway is only a push of the button away? When they do this legal maneuver of retracting the jetway and closing the doors.... it is still a plane full of human beings who want to get the heck on with the trip, or after a reasonable wait, like 1-2 hours, want to scratch the whole idea and go back home. These AA people last month were SFO-DEN I recall, and were diverted to DFW for the weather. (Denver...what a great place to attempt to fly in the winter!) and after already being in a packed MD-80 for 4 hours, spent another 8 hours at a sealed gate until the Capt. declared a total muteney onboard and against AA orders, commanded the door open, and the prisoners set free. Now, this poor guy might be out of a job, but I hope the union will back him up.
25 OPNLguy: OK, one pax wants off, and it screws the operations up of the airline (missed slot time, additional de-icing, whatever.) Don't look now, but it also
26 Adh214: I find it truly amazing when posters defend the airline on this one. Certainly, we all understand the difficulties in operating an airline, blah, blah
27 Lijnden: In January 1988 I and about 100 other passengers were held hostage on a TWA B747 flight JFK>LAX (I came from AMS) due to snow for about 5 hours. They
28 Ckfred: I was on an AA flight on 12/31 from ATL to ORD. Before boarding, the gate agent announced that the flight would sit on the hold pad for at least 90 mi
29 Sking11: The situation in DEN as I recall was due to the A/C being stuck in the snow or something like that. I would be more understanding of that issue. But t
30 Lincoln: It would be interesting to see what wouldl happen if a passenger lodged a criminal/civil complaint against the airline for kidnapping/false inprisonm
31 Zvezda: It's not kidnapping under that (and probably not under any other) statute because it is not done for ransom or reward. It may be false imprisonment u
32 TVNWZ: The final insult for those AA passengers coming from SFO was that they were delayed already one hour in SFO because of an engine problem. If they woul
33 Azstagecoach: I also think highly of CO but I had the impression that the doors were closed regardless because otherwise the FA's don't get paid. Is this not part
34 Lincoln: I'm not a lawyer, but I think if the "or otherwise" in "holds for ransom or reward or otherwise any person" was construed broadly enough, it might ju
35 Galapagapop: Well 8 years ago I got stuck in New London, CT on I-95 for 5 hours in the same 1 mile stretch, as a car carrier flipped over and sent cars across all
36 ORDflier: In the wake of these publicized incidents I would guess that more carriers are simply going to just cancel the flights in advance. Doing so saves them