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FRA Back As Second Biggest Airport Of Europe?  
User currently offlineLHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4656 times:

Hello,

I´ve a question: will we ever see FRA back as the Second Airport in Europe?

I think until 2003 (2004?) FRA had more passengers than CDG but as they don´t built the 4 landing runway I presume that FRA will stay at this level.

This year FRA has just grown 1 % to compare Air Traffic world wide 5 %

Delays + 4 %

All this due that there are no more slots!

56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4009 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4629 times:

Yes, in the future Frankfurt will be second. CDG will be first, LHR will be third.


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User currently offlineHUYguy From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 274 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4596 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 1):
Yes, in the future Frankfurt will be second. CDG will be first, LHR will be third.

What do you have a crystal ball or something?


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8310 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4565 times:

Quoting HUYguy (Reply 2):
Quoting Incitatus (Reply 1):
Yes, in the future Frankfurt will be second. CDG will be first, LHR will be third.

What do you have a crystal ball or something?

I think he has a point. It's a matter of looking at the overall picture. London has 2 major international airports and LHR is extemely limited for growth while Paris and Frankfurt only have one airport. CDG also has more room to grow than LHR so it's not that far fetched to think that CDG could become #1 at some point.


User currently offlineDavidT From Switzerland, joined Oct 2005, 477 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4540 times:

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 3):
It's a matter of looking at the overall picture. London has 2 major international airports and LHR is extemely limited for growth while Paris and Frankfurt only have one airport.

Has Orly recently disappeared?  Smile


User currently offlineLHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4535 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 1):
CDG will be first,

Why not FRA 1st all the time FRA was bigger than CDG until the Capacity couldn´t grwo more at FRA they´ld have more passanger if this would not have happened...


User currently offlineYULMRS From France, joined Mar 2005, 195 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4488 times:

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 3):
I think he has a point. It's a matter of looking at the overall picture. London has 2 major international airports and LHR is extemely limited for growth while Paris and Frankfurt only have one airport. CDG also has more room to grow than LHR so it's not that far fetched to think that CDG could become #1 at some point.

You forgot Orly, Hann and Le Bourget  Wink

But, you're right on the main point i think, there's almost no more possible expansion in LHR, while CDG can still expand. All the parisian traffic growth will go to CDG because ORY is locked at 250 000 flights a year.

I have an interesting link about ADP investment in CDG :

Aerocontact, sorry, french only

2 main figures from this story, ADP will invest 2.34 billion euros in CDG and capacity will grow of 19.4 million PAX a year, i don't think this can be done in LHR.



To any North American carrier, send us a regular flight in MRS !!!!!
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8310 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4462 times:

Quoting YULMRS (Reply 6):
You forgot Orly, Hann and Le Bourget

I didn't realize you could fly to places like India, China and S.America from Orly and Le Bourget which is where traffic is supposed to increase significantly in the next 10 years but if so, I stand corrected.


User currently offlineYULMRS From France, joined Mar 2005, 195 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4425 times:

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 7):
I didn't realize you could fly to places like India, China and S.America from Orly and Le Bourget which is where traffic is supposed to increase significantly in the next 10 years but if so, I stand corrected.

You're right, I was only joking.

But there's still some long haul at ORY (RUN, EWR, FDF, PTP ...)



To any North American carrier, send us a regular flight in MRS !!!!!
User currently offlineFoxXray From France, joined May 2005, 384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4402 times:

LHR handled 66 424 767 pax on 2000 and approximately 68 000 000 on 2005 so just a little bit more than 1.5 million of pax in six years whereas CDG handled 48 246 137 pax on 2000 and 56 026 177 on 2005 so approximately 7.8 million of pax in six years !

I think that CDG will be the biggest european airport in the future !


User currently offlineBaexecutive From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 740 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4396 times:

Quoting FoxXray (Reply 9):
I think that CDG will be the biggest european airport in the future !

I think your missing 1 crucial point, Heathrow has Terminal 5, when that becomes operational it is expected to make Heathrow the worlds busiest airport.


User currently offlineLHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4361 times:

Quoting FoxXray (Reply 9):
I think that CDG will be the biggest european airport in the future !

Maybe but just because France has no more important Airports in all country
as Germany with MUC DUS HAM or the UK with MAN and LHR LGW.


User currently offlineFoxXray From France, joined May 2005, 384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4358 times:

Yes the T5 will be great for LHR but how many pax it will be able to handle ?

CDG will get its new S3 this year with 8.5 millions of pax per year and they plan to grow the CDG capacity of 19.4 millions by 2012 !


User currently offlineIBERIA747 From Spain, joined Aug 2003, 1831 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4357 times:

Quoting Baexecutive (Reply 10):
Heathrow has Terminal 5, when that becomes operational it is expected to make Heathrow the worlds busiest airport.

And where are airlines going to obtain more slots from?.

In LHR's case, they can build as many terminals as they want, but if the slots are not increased then no traffic growth is possible, and this is what's happening at LHR as long as they remain with just 2 runways.

Just look at aircraft movements...LHR is not Europe's Nº1 in that area.

Now if a 3rd runway could be built at LHR then it would allow traffic to increase much more than it has done in the last few years.

[Edited 2007-01-12 19:14:55]


¡¡VIVA ESPAÑA!!
User currently offlineFoxXray From France, joined May 2005, 384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4331 times:

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 11):
Maybe but just because France has no more important Airports in all country
as Germany with MUC DUS HAM or the UK with MAN and LHR LGW

It can be because of it, or because of that,... the fact is that CDG will be the biggest airport in Europe in medium term !
ORY hasn't a lot of long haul flights (to RUN, PTP, FDF, EWR, YUL,...) but it is still an important airport (25 millions of pax and 250000 movements per year)

FRA, MUC and DUS ok, these are important !

but HAM is as big NCE !


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7411 posts, RR: 57
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4331 times:

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 7):
I didn't realize you could fly to places like India, China and S.America from Orly and Le Bourget which is where traffic is supposed to increase significantly in the next 10 years but if so, I stand corrected.

Even with a limited long-haul destinations, ORLY was ranked the 10th European Airport with 24 053 215 PAX in 2004, behind FCO, MUC or BCN, but before MAN (21.544M), CPH (18.965M), ZRH (17.28M), LIS, ATH, IST or VIE.

CDG+ORY = more than 75 Million PAX, behind LHR+LGW but well ahead FRA.


User currently offlineMarkATL From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 539 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4274 times:

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 3):
Frankfurt only have one airport.

Everyone except the folks at Ryan Air agree with you. Big grin



"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8310 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4249 times:

Quoting Baexecutive (Reply 10):
I think your missing 1 crucial point, Heathrow has Terminal 5, when that becomes operational it is expected to make Heathrow the worlds busiest airport.

That may alleviate the lack of gate space or reduce connection times for passengers but it will do little or nothing to increase the number of slots. You'll still only have 2 runways and there are only so many landings and takeoffs per hour, that LHR can support. From what I've seen, FRA stands a better chance of building an additional runway than LHR but that's not saying much  Smile


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9323 posts, RR: 29
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4195 times:

FRA has a good chance to catch up again when runway #4 becomes operational. That will give an increase in movements by at least 160.000 p.a. and with T3 passenger capacity will be well over 80 Million.

The questions will be -can LHR add a third runway and can CDG continue to grow or will a new Paris airport be built.

Germany is polycentric, which actually is a big advantage over countries having a very large single economic centre like the UK and France. And - going from FRA to CGN does not take more time than going from CDG to ORY or LHR to LGW.

Add the 3,7 ;illion in HHN and the ca. 10 Million in CGN, that adds up to 66 Million as well. DUS has another 16.5 Million, hence, in an area about the size of Metro London (or Greater LAX) 4 airports handle almost 83 Million passengers annually.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineFlyorski From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 987 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4179 times:

FRA may also see increased capacity, from larger aircraft replacing smaller ones.... LH has larger 747-8s and 380s coming..........


"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
User currently offlineLHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4103 times:

Quoting FoxXray (Reply 14):
FRA, MUC and DUS ok, these are important !

Well both are in the European Top 10 and DUS is growing more and more

the new runway will allow to grow capacity 50 % so FRA will be the biggest also a new terminal (T3) will be built to finish 2013

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
FRA has a good chance to catch up again when runway #4 becomes operational. That will give an increase in movements by at least 160.000 p.a. and with T3 passenger capacity will be well over 80 Million.

That´s it!

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
Add the 3,7 ;illion in HHN and the ca. 10 Million in CGN, that adds up to 66 Million as well. DUS has another 16.5 Million, hence, in an area about the size of Metro London (or Greater LAX) 4 airports handle almost 83 Million passengers annually.

Never calculated this , it´s really much ! Well the Rhein-Ruhr gebiet is the most important Industrial zone in Europe so it´s logic ...


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25163 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4084 times:

Nobody has mentioned AMS. I think it's the only major airport in Europe with 5 runways (actually 6 if you count a short one mainly used for general aviation). Plenty of room for growth.

Without a 3rd runway (I won't hold my breath for that), the only way LHR can continue growing in passenger traffic is by using larger aircraft, thus it's likely to be one of the major A380 destinations. LHR has virtually no regional jet or turboprop traffic unlike most of the other major European hubs. That also limits the markets that can be served from/to LHR to major cities that can support the mainline jets...737s, A320s and up, and even those are rather small to make the best use of the limited LHR slots.


User currently offlineLHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4075 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 21):
the only way LHR can continue growing in passenger traffic is by using larger aircraft, thus it's likely to be one of the major A380 destinations.

Well Airbus designed it for this Airports with no more capacity grow in near future


User currently offlineStylo777 From Germany, joined Feb 2006, 2968 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4066 times:

you have to take into account that the 4th runway at FRA will be used for landings only.

User currently offlineLHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4033 times:

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 23):
you have to take into account that the 4th runway at FRA will be used for landings only.

Sure but that will increase capacity by 50%...


25 LHStarAlliance : + new terminal up to 85 mill .
26 Blast : AMS its growth is restricted by political decisions which are the result of environmental pressure and noise level limits. In addition, the newest ru
27 Joost : I agree on Blast that AMS is mainly capped by regulations. Currently, the cap is at 450.000 flights. Currently, there seems to be political agreement
28 PanHAM : That is already taken into consideration. The 650K can easily be done even if the landing runway is time restricted between 6 am and 9 pm. What FRA n
29 Paneuropean : True, besides the growth of AMS is very dependent on transfer traffic. Hopefully this success of Schiphol isn't it's weakest link, as O and D traffic
30 VV701 : Are slots the only criteria? If so this would be impossible: Take the absurd example of LHR being slot restricted to 480,000 slots a year but each sl
31 Lijnden : FRA and AMS are the two airports with most growth possibility but with the least political will. Passengers in transit prefer these airports over CDG
32 LHStarAlliance : Germany as the first industrial nation in Europe will never have a Airport of the size of MAD or AMS , if it is not FRA it will be MUC LH CEO Mayrhube
33 Alitalia744 : Tell that to Atlanta.
34 Paneuropean : So your point is that the size of Frankfurt has everything to do with the countries industrial volume? This is quite a black and white vision. Moreov
35 Pelican : And the location in central-western Europe isn't bad at all. The main carrier is LH... The volume of the German Economy is by far the biggest in Euro
36 PanHAM : As a matter of fact, FRA is idelly located in Europe. It is basically the geopgraphical center of Europe, after Bulgaria and Romania joined the EU Ja
37 Paneuropean : That it isn't just a matter of your countries economical volume. There are more aspects, look at the exceptions like SIN, DXB, HKK, AMS. These airpor
38 LHStarAlliance : That´s it . FRA and CDG have at least the same potential to be the biggest in future Well but at least the runway is coming nearer and nearer , some
39 LHStarAlliance : But it´s one of the most important points . And FRA is the most important *A hub and LH/LX
40 Pelican : I've never said that. That's the reason why I've mentioned other points from your reply 34. Sure it's just that FRA has the same chance as other Euro
41 LHStarAlliance : And sure more than AMS or MAD .
42 Airbazar : I wonder how much of it is due to LCC's which you see very little of at FRA. That depends of where you're going and where you're coming from. But Eur
43 LHStarAlliance : Just AB with 3 or 4 routes MAD will be a Easy Jet hub and there are clickair vueling etc also AMS is a big LCC airport
44 PanHAM : They bought the land on which the Ticona plant is located and pay for the new plant. Meaning, they have removed a stepping stone which would have at
45 LHStarAlliance : And not so good connections.
46 FoxXray : Yes maybe FRA and CDG have the same potential but percentages speak by themselves... in 2003 CDG was just behind FRA while this year CDG should be so
47 VV701 : If you are travelling from the east to Europe and your destination is somewhere in the eastern half of the EU do you want to fly to the centre and th
48 LHStarAlliance : CDG:53,8 Mio. (2005) FRA:52,8 Mio.(2005) Thats 1 mill. When the new runway is finished they´ll overtake CDG not the same year but the next .
49 FoxXray : 2006 estimation is 56.1 millions for CDG and 52.5 for FRA ! and during 2005 CDG was at 53.8 and FRA at 52.2 (not 52.8)...
50 LHStarAlliance : Well I don´t know if CDG has announced the numbers but FRA had 2006 52,8 Mill. it was my fault sorry ... But all know that if there would be more cap
51 Paneuropean : So ? For sure. LCC have a big future. Frankfurt has the Hahn airport for low cost carriers and a few others in the rest of Germany. Flying low cost f
52 Post contains images FCAFLYBOY : I very much DOUBT that this will EVER happen, I cannot see LHR being knocked off the top-spot ANY TIME SOON! Especially not with the number of A380's
53 LHStarAlliance : Sure not in the next 7-10 years but beyond it could be possible ...
54 PanHAM : MUC turns out to be a blessing for LH. If it wasn't for slot restriction in FRA and the opportunity at MUC, LH would be a smaller and less profitable
55 FoxXray : Well so apparently you know that FRA will be the biggest so i wonder why you have started this topic ?
56 LHStarAlliance : You´re right , but I wanted to see your opinions about this topic.
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