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Is Delta Nearly Done?  
User currently offlineTu154 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 379 posts, RR: 4
Posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9829 times:

Very interesting article by the Motley Fool found at Yahoo biz news. This is going to be a very interesting year for the industry.
If link no good, full text posted on next post.


http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...e=eptyholnk303100&logvisit=y&npu=y

[Edited 2007-01-12 21:37:32]


FIRST ON THE ATLANTIC.....FIRST ON THE PACIFIC.....FIRST IN LATIN AMERICA...FIRST 'ROUND THE WORLD.....PAN AM!!
63 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4106 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9632 times:

Quoting Tu154 (Reply 1):
Link may be bad,

The link worked okay. Actually if merging with NW isn't an option, then the creditors are best left with a stand alone DL. Despite the likely objections the HP/US fans on these threads will say, a US takeover of DL is not a the best option for the flying public in the USA.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineDALelite From Switzerland, joined Jun 2000, 1770 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9597 times:

I had the same thoughts few day's ago when US increased their take-over offer.
Then, I remembered the day's in early April 06. At that thime it was very uncertain if DL would escape.
In the end i hope that the creditors will be on the DL side and vote for DL!!
And i hope that they will keep Delta my Delta too.

regards: DALelite



They loved to fly and it showed..
User currently offlineMPDPilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 994 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9596 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 2):
US takeover of DL is not a the best option for the flying public in the USA.

I have to agree with that. I think delta and Northwest are a much better fit for numerous reasons



One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
User currently offlineFLYAWA From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9584 times:

Why didn't US go after NW? It also seems to be a more logical fit than DL.


Better than most, not as good as some.
User currently offlineCOERJ145 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9518 times:

Quoting FLYAWA (Reply 4):
Why didn't US go after NW?

Labor issues.


User currently offlineCa2ohHP From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 955 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9455 times:

Can't these threads be consolidated (no pun intended) into one...this horse is already 6 feet under.

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25428 posts, RR: 86
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9356 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 1):
a US takeover of DL is not a the best option for the flying public in the USA.

What does it have to do with the travelling public?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineCongaboy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 352 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9347 times:

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 3):
Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 2):
US takeover of DL is not a the best option for the flying public in the USA.

I have to agree with that. I think delta and Northwest are a much better fit for numerous reasons

Right, and the article never mentions the hurdles of a US/DL merger. Here are my thoughts on an NW/DL merger being much more favorable than a US/DL:
1/ Anti-trust issues...the shuttle in particular...not a good development for the flying public at all.
2/ CLT or ATL hub getting the ax...again, not a good development for the community.
3/ Fleet compatibility...probably an issue for both NW and US, but more so for US with more Airbus types.
4/ Route compatability...someone hinted this earlier (FLYAWA), and mentioned in the article. US presents more route "incompatability"...alot of over-lap.



"Joey, you like movies about gladiators?"
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4106 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9230 times:

Quoting DALelite (Reply 2):
I had the same thoughts few day's ago when US increased their take-over offer.

Big version: Width: 450 Height: 318 File size: 55kb
Pat Bagley, Salt Lake Tribune SLtrib.com

From this mornings Salt Lake Tribune!
http://extras.sltrib.com/bagley/Archive.asp?Vol=content&Num=6
Try and not  rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently online727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6500 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 9196 times:

With each passing day, it becomes increasingly likely that Delta Air Lines, the nation's third-largest carrier, will soon be no more.

But isn't the DELTA name to kept? Or is he talking about just as a corporation.

Saddam's last words:
KEEP DELTA MY D... (YOINK!)



Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4106 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 9163 times:

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 10):
But isn't the DELTA name to kept? Or is he talking about just as a corporation.

Since when is re-badging a Yugo a Lexus make it better?



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16885 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 9077 times:

Quoting FLYAWA (Reply 4):
Why didn't US go after NW?

As mentioned labor issues, DL is a take over target because it's the least Unionized of the Major carriers. Lack of Union representation makes merging labor groups and altering pay and benefit packages easier.

NWA is heavily Unionized with some bad relations currently between management and the employee Unions.

Delta is a perfect fit for US Airways as far as investors are concerned because both are non Union, which is the biggest cost and risk issue regards to the airline industry.

If CO, UAL or AA were to try and takeover Delta it would not be as attractive because of the current Unions at the respective airlines, DL+NWA= DL with NWA's labor problems. Not good, DL has enough problems.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineKlkla From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 937 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8766 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 12):
Delta is a perfect fit for US Airways as far as investors are concerned because both are non Union, which is the biggest cost and risk issue regards to the airline industry.

Are your sure about USAir being non union? I thought most of their employees were unionized. I know their pilots and FAs are.

I think the only major unionized group at Delta are the pilots.


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4106 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8704 times:

Quoting Klkla (Reply 13):
I think the only major unionized group at Delta are the pilots.

The dispatchers are likewise unionized at DL. Despite several attempts to organize the F/As, DL remains for the most part a union free shop.

Quoting Klkla (Reply 13):
Are your sure about USAir being non union? I thought most of their employees were unionized. I know their pilots and FAs are.

The HP groups of employees and the US group of employees are in different unions. Fights have even broke out between the two groups of baggage handlers at meetings. So hence Parker's reluctance to add another heavily unionized carrier into the foray is perhaps the biggest reason aside from completely eliminating a competitor for going after DL instead of NW.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8514 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 9):

Hahahaha, I love it.



The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 8136 times:

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 5):
Quoting FLYAWA (Reply 4):
Why didn't US go after NW?

Labor issues.

NW's labor union are some of the more stubborn and militant, and nearly everything at NW is unionized. If the unions don't support it, it is very difficult for anything to take place, and my understanding is that the Doug Parker management team is not exactly revered by employee groups. NW's unions aren't incredibly fond of their current management, but I think they realize the spectre of Parker is worse, that said, perhaps they don't have the most negative view of DL's management. NW is the idea merger target, in my opinion, the airline is worth much more than it is currently valued at, and God knows, six months ago it would have been a true steal.

US doesn't even have its own labor issues worked out in house from the HP/US merger yet, they sure as heck don't want to throw the NW mergers into that, their airline could very well stop flying.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 11):
Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 10):
But isn't the DELTA name to kept? Or is he talking about just as a corporation.

Since when is re-badging a Yugo a Lexus make it better?

Well, I mean, a Lexus is just a rebadged Toyota.... then again, a Toyota seems to be superior to a Yugo.

Doug Parker has already done a number on US Airways, if he destroys Delta, I really will be very sad. He's foolishly too aggressive.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 14):
Quoting Klkla (Reply 13):
I think the only major unionized group at Delta are the pilots.

The dispatchers are likewise unionized at DL. Despite several attempts to organize the F/As, DL remains for the most part a union free shop.

Quoting Klkla (Reply 13):
Are your sure about USAir being non union? I thought most of their employees were unionized. I know their pilots and FAs are.

The HP groups of employees and the US group of employees are in different unions. Fights have even broke out between the two groups of baggage handlers at meetings. So hence Parker's reluctance to add another heavily unionized carrier into the foray is perhaps the biggest reason aside from completely eliminating a competitor for going after DL instead of NW.

Labor issues steered US to go for DL, but do you honestly believe, even if they could get the creditors to go for the deal, that the regulators would let the merger happen? There would be very little competition left in the southeast, drastically reduced competiton in the mid-atlantic and northeast, less competition across the atlantic, I don't know.

And they are going to have to drag Boeing and the Pilots Association, two of DL's largest creditors, kicking and screaming into an arrangement where DL is taken over by US.... I'm not sure how well conceived this whole arrangement was. Labor issues aside, NW was a much easier target. I just don't think this US/DL thing will ever happen.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineOphila From St. Kitts and Nevis, joined May 2006, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 8014 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 12):
, DL+NWA= DL with NWA's labor problems. Not good, DL has enough problems


excatly


User currently offlineCincinnati747 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 19 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7939 times:

One reason because NW wouldnt go after Delta is because their fleets are pretty much completely opposite

User currently offlineJayDub From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6365 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 1):
a US takeover of DL is not a the best option for the flying public in the USA.

As much as I don't want to see DL in it's current state go (they are my ride home, afterall), I don't think the creditors give a flip about the flying public. Just like most management doesn't give a flip about the low-level employee. They all care about one thing:  dollarsign . Nothing more, nothing less.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 10):
Saddam's last words:
KEEP DELTA MY D... (YOINK!)

Wow...abrasive and over the top...right up my alley!


User currently offlineCba From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4531 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6103 times:

Quoting Congaboy (Reply 8):
Fleet compatibility...probably an issue for both NW and US, but more so for US with more Airbus types.

I don't see how that's an issue, both airlines operate the same number of Airbus types, the A320 family and the A330 family.

In either situation, it'd be interesting to see what becomes of the fleet. I'm not sure about the number of 737's that DL operates, but seeing that both US and NW operate at least two different A32X types, I wouldn't be surprised to see the narrowbody fleet become all-Airbus after DL replaces its MD-80's. The widebody fleet will be slightly more complicated. Although Delta has just ordered more 777's, their fleet of the type is still relatively small. However, US has a small fleet of A330's, and I'm not sure about NW's numbers.

In either case, I can't see the 777 being phased out, as the A330 is incapable of the longer-range flights. In the case of NW, the 332 would stay. In the case of NW or US, we could be looking at a similar plan to what Air France has in utilizing both the A340 and 772.


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4106 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5954 times:

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):
Labor issues steered US to go for DL, but do you honestly believe, even if they could get the creditors to go for the deal, that the regulators would let the merger happen?

I've stated time and again on these threads that if the DOJ allowed this merger, it wouldn't be until after a substantial divestiture took place. Back in 2000, the proposed US/UA would have been approved, but they would have had to unload a number of gates at DCA, something neither management team at the time wanted to do. I think many have been naive to think the DOJ will be more lenient nowadays post 9/11, but that is being incredibly silly.
With Parker seeking to eliminate competition, he is counting on WN, B6, FL & F9 to fill the void. While that will likely happen, it won't come over night.
"Building a Better Airline?" My @$$!

Quoting JayDub (Reply 19):
As much as I don't want to see DL in it's current state go (they are my ride home, after-all), I don't think the creditors give a flip about the flying public. Just like most management doesn't give a flip about the low-level employee. They all care about one thing: dollarsign . Nothing more, nothing less.

While what is the best and most assured financial deal is their bottom line, they aren't desperate to "cut and run" as some business types love to also assert on these threads. Many like Boeing, GE Capitol Finance and American Express have a much greater vested interest to see DL survive that they realize. It isn't quite like these financiers want what ever money they can get right now as if they're some bill collector harassing DL on the phone. Even with the 20% sweetening this past week, Doug Parker's offer still has too many risky strings attached that everyone and anyone on that creditors committee for DL knows about and is accessing very tightly.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineJayDub From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5813 times:

SLCUT2777, I hope you're right. I really do. I just don't have alot of faith in people when the almighty dollar is involved.

On a screen name related note...I flew through SLC yesterday afternoon. Was beautiful when the sun came through.


User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5065 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 1):
Actually if merging with NW isn't an option, then the creditors are best left with a stand alone DL. Despite the likely objections the HP/US fans on these threads will say, a US takeover of DL is not a the best option for the flying public in the USA.

"Actually?" Id DL and NW merge than NW becomes the name of the carrier or at best some merged name of the two but to throw out both carriers names in sake of one new name would be wasting a lot of years marketing. If US buys DL than the DL name stays alive and the DL managment team goes, something that most will probably do anyways immediately after emergenace from Ch.11 so really, what is the big deal from DL's perspective if US buys DL to merge AS DL, and even after surrendering a variety of assets it would still create for a very large and thereby strong carrier? I'm just not seeing the problem here, DL employees have already lost about as much as one could lose and still remain employeed - how can US be anything but good for DL?

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 21):
have had to unload a number of gates at DCA, something neither management team at the time wanted to do. I think many have been naive to think the DOJ will be more lenient nowadays post 9/11,

IF the DOJ tried to embelish their otherwise duties and prohibit carriers from merging in the current state of the US airline industry would be highly hypocritical and very irresponsible. The DOJ/DOT are the ones responsible for the quagmire that now exists in the industry and for them to prevent a plan that could lead to future prosperity would only leave one plausible scenario: federal re-regulation (because lets face it, the airline industry is still vastly regulated by the Feds) of the airline industry; hell maybe then all the carriers can merge under one name and we can just call it oh I don't know, US Airways?!  Smile


User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4872 times:

Why should legacies have to merge at all???

This is all hype from Wall Street and the media, plus a few oversized egos like Doug Parkers. Mergers are usually disasters. With the exception of DL/WA, I cant think of a US Merger/Buyout that went well..okok WN and MorrisAir...but aise from that, they generally dont work.


Mergers usually dont result in permanently lower capacity, so that argument is bogus.

Mergers benefit only lawyers and investment bankers


25 Coewraatysaz : "Then there's bankruptcy. For all the complaints about United CEO Glenn Tilton, he kept the airline in hock for years, to the point where the courts b
26 Funflyer : I start Tuesday at MHT for USAir as a FSA-Fleet Service Agent, I'm definatly in a union. Internation Association of Something or other.
27 MPDPilot : I think what some of us are trying to say is that the DOJ will not allow this merger. A merger between US and DL would give the larger carrier with a
28 DAL767400ER : Because according to all the armchair CEOs on a.net and other aviation forums, this is the only way to clear the market of overcapacity and reduce co
29 Cba : And that's why the world has too many lawyers and bankers. Management Consultants also make a killing off of those mergers. Nothing like taking a dea
30 DeltaL1011man : I really think its a little to early to say the name will be NW. Having said that mt grandad work for delta for and he said that they told him they w
31 Luv2fly : I have to agree with this statement.
32 Bmacleod : In the end DL or NW will have to merge. Both cannot survive alone. However DL may have a prickly time integrating all those Airbuses; being a loyal Bo
33 EXAAUADL : mmmmmm...that isnt my quote
34 MPDPilot : I don't agree I think that any carrier with the right plan can standalone in this industry. I think that this whole merger thing is a lot of hipe wit
35 WorldTraveler : because they really want to eliminate a competitor and give US a future... the irony is that because they went after DL - and they will lose - they w
36 LAXdude1023 : I would love to believe these statements, but is there any proof of this?
37 MPDPilot : do you have any proof that those statements aren't totally true?
38 LAXdude1023 : I dont think anyone has any proof either way concerning the creditors or what the government is thinking. They might be true they might not be, but I
39 Post contains links STT757 : More attention needs to be paid to Gordon Bethune's role in this, he's not there to represent DL, he's there to represent their creditors. Gordon Beth
40 MPDPilot : I have to agree with you I was simply posing the question that I think more of us need to remember that we are just speculating on most of this stuff
41 Baw716 : Hi all, Mariner is right. The US offer for DL has nothing to do with the flying public. That said, I agree that the deal is bad all around, except for
42 Brilondon : If you don't like the thread which is started with the article don't participaate in it please.
43 MPDPilot : nicely put I think you have hit the nail on the head.
44 Post contains images Brilondon : Good union. I think that I once belonged to that one too.
45 Post contains images DeltaJet757 : With each passing day, it becomes increasingly likely that Delta Air Lines, the nation's third-largest carrier, will soon be no more. That's BS. And l
46 Post contains images LawnDart : Just trying to catch up with Irish Aviation 137 and Peter Max XXXIIV...
47 CroCop : I was under the impression that if DL and NW try anything, and DL is the aggressor they can break NWA's horrible unions. Is this not the case here? I
48 Kanebear : A Delta/Northwest merger? Oh wow, the Republic folks and the Western folks will have a grand old time comparing notes on who got screwed worse.
49 Post contains images LawnDart : No, but you get a nifty "Keep Delta My Delta" button! Interesting scenario...if DL and NW do merge, and CO and UA merge, who's left for US? AA? Hardl
50 DeltaL1011man : that is funny HAHAHAHAHAHA welcome to RU list
51 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : Not sure why my post was deleted, but in any event: That's true, but not necessarily my point. I was merely opining on the double-standard, which is n
52 Post contains links DeltaL1011man : http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070113/delta_bankruptcy.html?.v=2
53 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Thats a misstatement.....he wasn't running the show previously..what he has done is able to guide America West through one of the worst periods in av
54 Mariner : The public will still be served. If you drive a cab in NYC you need a licence to do so, but the cab drivers first priority it to pay his rent - while
55 MCOflyer : Now thats one funny picture. My thoughts exactly. I think a US/NW would make a good fit or a CO/DL combo. MCOflyer
56 MPDPilot : you should watch the movie "thank you for smoking" I agree with that movie in that you don't have to be right you just have to make the other person
57 Post contains images Jacobin777 : It might be right in "Hollywoodland"..but as an argument or debate, it wouldn't stand scrutiny....the burden of proof will certainly be on the one st
58 MPDPilot : just for the sake of argument I think that movie is very correct. I don't think that I am going to change his mind so the only real reason that I wou
59 KC135TopBoom : DL is not a good fit for US, to many route overlaps and the fleets are not compatable, and I doubt DOJ would approve it. OTOH, a DL and NW deal, made
60 Dank : Hunh? I thought they existed to make money. As far as the creditors are concerned why should they care what is best for the flying public. shouldn't
61 KC135TopBoom : Actually it is better for the creditors to be concerned about the flying public. Yes, they can make short term money by doing the easy thing (US/DL m
62 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Ok..I see your point.. ....only wanted to make sure my point came across...
63 DLPMMM : How about the fact that one of DL's largest unsecured creditors (over $800 million in approved claims) and member of the Official Creditor's Committe
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