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Iberia/TAP To Brazil  
User currently offlineLongHaul67 From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 248 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3416 times:

Browsing through Iberia and TAP’s schedules I have found that it is impossible to make same day connections from CPH, OSL, ARN (and possibly also other destinations) to GIG and GRU.
This surprises me given the fact that these are premium carriers with their own network, and it seems to me they are not utilizing it fully. They both have daily direct flights to both destinations, making them attractive in this market. Other European carriers (AF, BA, LH, LX) flying into these destinations all have overnight flights allowing for feed traffic to their main hubs.

Question: Does anybody with some inside info know if Iberia/TAP are considering making any changes to their departure banks to these destinations in the near future?

I fly quite often to Rio so it would be interesting to know.


Rgds
LongHaul67

42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8326 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3367 times:

It must have to do with the need to maintain a high level of utilization from their aircraft and the fact that there is enough O&D traffic to support the daylight flight. If you think about it, it's a standard Atlantic crossing schedule. Westbound during the day and Eastbound overnight. It only requires 1 aircraft per destination. If they were to fly it overnight in both directions they would need 2 aircraft per destination and the aircraft would have to sit idle all day, in Brazil.

User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3357 times:

Quoting LongHaul67 (Thread starter):
I fly quite often to Rio so it would be interesting to know

TP also operates OPO-GRU and OPO-GIG, perhaps flying via OPO would allow for immediate connection.

Rgs,


User currently offlineAisak From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 762 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3346 times:

As of IB and GRU:

IB 6819 MAD 01.25 GRU 09.15
IB 6821 MAD 12.10 GRU 20.00

IB 6826 GRU 17.35 MAD 06.30+1
IB 6820 GRU 21.25 MAD 10.20+1

And regarding GIG:

IB 6801 MAD 12.05 GIG 19.40
IB 6800 GIG 21.05 MAD 09.50+1

GRU doesn't seem to have connecting trouble. Maybe GIG, but bear in mind that MAD is not a well-suited hub for Scandinavia and IB does not serve well the region.


User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2898 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3327 times:

Coming back it works...
27 Mar GIG 17:25 LIS 06:40 +1 Economy TP 182
28 Mar LIS 09:20 OSL 14:10 Economy TP 506

But Lisbon night life is good, so you won't go bored during your outbound layover!



I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineLongHaul67 From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 248 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3321 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 2):
If they were to fly it overnight in both directions they would need 2 aircraft per destination and the aircraft would have to sit idle all day, in Brazil.

Yeah, you seem to be right. Iberia/TAP's A343 sits at GIG for only a couple of hours, while the overnight carriers sit for 8-10 hrs since they use 2 aircraft.
Wonder if they are expecting to receive additional aircraft in the near future? TAP is the European market leader to Brazil, and at the moment they are missing out on market share. Right now AF is capitalizing on this with the introduction of their second daily to GIG.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 2):
TP also operates OPO-GRU and OPO-GIG, perhaps flying via OPO would allow for immediate connection.

Thanks for the tip, but I already checked and its a no-go.


User currently offlineLongHaul67 From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 248 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3309 times:

Quoting Aisak (Reply 3):
As of IB and GRU:

IB 6819 MAD 01.25 GRU 09.15

Yup, thats a go! missed out on that one.
Both carriers have excellent connections coming back from both GIG and GRU.

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 4):
But Lisbon night life is good, so you won't go bored during your outbound layover!

Sure is, guess it works well for the leisure traveller, but not so good for Y class travellers!


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8326 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3268 times:

Well, you could mix and match. If there ever was an advantage for an Aliance this must be one. Outbound on LH/LX and inbound on TP. Or outbound on BA and inbound on IB.

User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3178 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting LongHaul67 (Thread starter):
Browsing through Iberia and TAP’s schedules I have found that it is impossible to make same day connections from CPH, OSL, ARN (and possibly also other destinations) to GIG and GRU.

Unfortunatelly not for TP and IB to GIG. IB keep the overnight flight MAD-GRU.

Quoting LongHaul67 (Thread starter):
Other European carriers (AF, BA, LH, LX) flying into these destinations all have overnight flights allowing for feed traffic to their main hubs.

But some are also looking for day-light like AF, BA and LH although they keep also their overnight flights.

Quoting LongHaul67 (Thread starter):
Question: Does anybody with some inside info know if Iberia/TAP are considering making any changes to their departure banks to these destinations in the near future?

I doubt LongHaul, their fleet is so limited and an overnight flight will demand for sure more widebodies.

Quoting LongHaul67 (Thread starter):
I fly quite often to Rio so it would be interesting to know.

So do I, and during sometime the only option was the AF CDG-GIG flight since RG is not flying FRA-GIG anymore (now it's FRA-GRU-GIG).

Quoting LongHaul67 (Reply 6):
Yup, thats a go! missed out on that one.
Both carriers have excellent connections coming back from both GIG and GRU.

Another options you have to fly non-stop and avoid possible delays at GRU:
- 3 weekly Pluna flights (also OVERNIGHT) MAD-GIG with 763 and very interesting Premium Economy (Business) deals.
- 2 weekly CGN-GIG flights (BRA, with cheaper C deals)
- 4 weekly MAD-GIG UX flights (daylight) with a better time table than IB
- New Daily overnight service CDG-GIG with JJ.

Nice trips to Rio!

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineLongHaul67 From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 248 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3090 times:

Quoting LongHaul67 (Reply 6):
Well, you could mix and match. If there ever was an advantage for an Aliance this must be one. Outbound on LH/LX and inbound on TP. Or outbound on BA and inbound on IB.

True. But usually the return options work well with all carriers. If only LH could find it in their hearts (and minds) to return to GIG. I am surprised they haven't done so already given the current market situation. Maybe they've also run out of widebodies like everyone else? I read a while ago that AF are having extremely good load factors to GIG.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 8):
Another options you have to fly non-stop and avoid possible delays at GRU:
- 3 weekly Pluna flights (also OVERNIGHT) MAD-GIG with 763 and very interesting Premium Economy (Business) deals.
- 2 weekly CGN-GIG flights (BRA, with cheaper C deals)
- 4 weekly MAD-GIG UX flights (daylight) with a better time table than IB
- New Daily overnight service CDG-GIG with JJ.

Thanks for the info Felipe, I'm gonna check it out.
It would mean stepping out of the great alliances though. And that kinda complicates things if you need a connecting flight...
BTW, do you have any experience with JJ? I've flown to GIG with AF, BA, LH and RG but not JJ. I am very keen on trying them.

Bjorn


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3065 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting LongHaul67 (Reply 9):
BTW, do you have any experience with JJ? I've flown to GIG with AF, BA, LH and RG but not JJ. I am very keen on trying them.

Considering the plane service, they are a very good airline but on ground, they become a little confused airline because of their strong growing during the last 2-3 years. But they have comfort seats on C/F, and their Y keep PTV on all seats. Food is great and F/A are always polite. I believe you will have a good experience with them. And if you fly JJ, do not forget to enroll on their Fidelidade because with a single CDG-GIG-CDG trip you will receive points enough to allow a GIG-EZE or SCL (one way flight).

Quoting LongHaul67 (Reply 9):
It would mean stepping out of the great alliances though. And that kinda complicates things if you need a connecting flight...

I get your point and i face the same problem, there isn't a major operator in Rio with services to a lot of places.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2957 times:

Quoting LongHaul67 (Reply 5):
Right now AF is capitalizing on this with the introduction of their second daily to GIG.

AF introduced the second daily to GRU. GIG keeps daily operations in 2-class while GRU gets 3-class service.

Quoting LongHaul67 (Reply 9):
I am surprised they haven't done so already given the current market situation. Maybe they've also run out of widebodies like everyone else? I read a while ago that AF are having extremely good load factors to GIG.

LH/LX does not operate to GIG because it decided to focus on GRU where it operates 20 weekly flights. GIG could be in LH future plans, but nothing concrete, while GRU is top priority.

Quoting LongHaul67 (Reply 9):
BTW, do you have any experience with JJ?

I would not use JJ, it service has been deteriorating. It is not a reliable airline. You could also try BA via GRU 3 x week or perhaps KLM which operates GIG with JJ codeshare.

Rgs,


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7575 posts, RR: 43
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2898 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 11):
I would not use JJ, it service has been deteriorating

Hi Hardi, how's the new year treating you my friend? I had not heard anything about JJ's service lately (except for the cries of outrage of many a.netters that the MD-11s are not going to be refitted with JJ's seats in the premium cabins) but this is really bad. I hope this is only a temporary situation resulting from JJ's expansion (like teething problems, if you will) and that everything will be sorted out soon. JJ is a reference in Latin America and it should continue to offer outstanding service notwithstanding the fact that its routemap is expanding or the entry of older planes from other types.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineAF086 From France, joined Jan 2007, 1059 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2881 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 11):
AF introduced the second daily to GRU. GIG keeps daily operations in 2-class while GRU gets 3-class service.

GIG will be 2x daily eff. 28OCT. Just like GRU. But still no F service (wonder if GIG will ever get it again).

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 11):
LH/LX does not operate to GIG because it decided to focus on GRU where it operates 20 weekly flights. GIG could be in LH future plans, but nothing concrete, while GRU is top priority.

A mistake if you ask me. Wish LH came back with the original LH526/7 (FRA-EZE-SCL) which had good load factors (as stated in this forum some time ago), leaving LH502/3 as an exclusive flight to GRU so in the end you would get extra seats for there. Also a FRA-GIG flight would be very interesting since it used to have excellent loads when operated by RG and now they're flying GIG-GRU-FRA with the GIG-GRU leg being flown by a 733 (usually full). Also we have to see that LH wouldn't only get the GIG-FRA pax but the ones connecting to the rest of the world via Frankfurt and those connecting at GIG to other parts in Brazil (specially VIX, BHZ, REC, SSA and BSB) that have better timed connections at GIG.



Please insert a "smart" joke here.
User currently offlineLongHaul67 From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 248 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2856 times:

Quoting AF086 (Reply 13):
Also we have to see that LH wouldn't only get the GIG-FRA pax but the ones connecting to the rest of the world via Frankfurt and those connecting at GIG to other parts in Brazil (specially VIX, BHZ, REC, SSA and BSB) that have better timed connections at GIG.

This is the part which I dont understand from LH's point of view. Surely there must be a large demand for FRA-GIG now that VARIG is being kicked out of STAR. FRA is by far the #1 hub in Europe within the alliance and it must be able to generate enough traffic to support such a route. I suppose the reason why it was cancelled in the first place was because VARIG was also covering it at the time?


User currently offlineAF086 From France, joined Jan 2007, 1059 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2851 times:

Quoting LongHaul67 (Reply 14):
I suppose the reason why it was cancelled in the first place was because VARIG was also covering it at the time?

Yes. When LH dropped GIG the info we had was that the german airline was leaving the FRA-GIG route to be operated by RG with LH codesharing. And indeed LH had their code on RG8744 (later RG8778).



Please insert a "smart" joke here.
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2714 times:

Quoting AF086 (Reply 13):
GIG will be 2x daily eff. 28OCT

Are you sure? I have no concrete informatino on this as yet. To start with, the bilateral Brazil-France does not even allow AF to increase its flights. The bilteral is at its limit currently, both AF and JJ have 3 daily flights.

Rgs,

[Edited 2007-01-15 09:41:21]

User currently offlineJog From Netherlands, joined Jul 2005, 273 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2690 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 16):
The bilteral is at its limit currently, both AF and JJ have 3 daily flights.

IIRC, the bilateral allows for 4 daily flights. In Brazil the rights for one daily flight still remain with RG. To allow JJ to fly its third daily flight the number of flights for both countries was recently increased.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2645 times:

Quoting Jog (Reply 17):
IIRC, the bilateral allows for 4 daily flights. In Brazil the rights for one daily flight still remain with RG. To allow JJ to fly its third daily flight the number of flights for both countries was recently increased.

Correct, however, AF was not yet accorder the right for the 4th daily by the French Government. I have not seen any official announcement by AF and the flight is not yet loaded.

There are NO confirmation of a second daily flight to GIG by AF, especially now that TAM started GIG-CDG. And I doubt that AF would simply double flights to GIG - even in the case of GRU, AF has added its second daily flights in phases.

Rgs,


User currently offlineLongHaul67 From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 248 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2617 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 18):
There are NO confirmation of a second daily flight to GIG by AF, especially now that TAM started GIG-CDG.

According to AF flight schedule the second daily to GIG will start 28 Oct as AF444 and will be flown by an A332


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2605 times:

Quoting LongHaul67 (Reply 19):
According to AF flight schedule the second daily to GIG will start 28 Oct as AF444 and will be flown by an A332

Interesting that has been no announcement so far...but flights is loaded on AF timetable, one will operate daylight. Tks for the info, anyway.

Thanks


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3699 posts, RR: 19
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2592 times:

Hardiwv, I wonder why you always have to highlight "GRU's superiority", when it's not even being mentioned... Nobody is denying that GRU isn't everything you say every single time there's a thread about Brazil. But have some respect towards the forum members that believe in GIG's potential. Do we always have to hear you undermine GIG?

User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2550 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 21):
Hardiwv, I wonder why you always have to highlight "GRU's superiority", when it's not even being mentioned... Nobody is denying that GRU isn't everything you say every single time there's a thread about Brazil. But have some respect towards the forum members that believe in GIG's potential. Do we always have to hear you undermine GIG?

What is your problem? Do you want me to state that GIG has more flights than GRU? Or perhaps that GIG is AF priority? Or even that AF yields and loads to GIG are higher than GRU??? I will never make these kind of statements, because they are WRONG!!!!!!!!

Funny! You certainly dont know what you are speaking about...have a look in my profile and my webpage: Rio de Janeiro...I am the number 2 defender of Rio in this forum, after Lipe. But you can be sure of one thing: I will always ponder my views about Rio, rational comes before emotional!

Rgs,

ps: I just came back from yet another holiday in Rio, 4th time in 2006 alone.


User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8673 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2548 times:

I would try JJ. I hear they are a good airline that has good customer service.

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2545 times:

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 23):
I would try JJ.

Read this before:

http://www.airlinequality.com/Forum/tam.htm

Rgs,


25 LongHaul67 : " target=_blank>http://www.airlinequality.com/Forum/...m.htm Reading through these reviews I couldn't help noticing that all the bad experiences start
26 Hardiwv : Corect. TAM delays started mainly in December/07. According to TAM the delays are because of "unexpected maintenance of aircraft"...hard do believe..
27 Post contains images LipeGIG : Yes no announcements yet, only here we discuss about the new flights. I believe probably six months before the flight, AF will begin to promote... al
28 MCOflyer : Fellow A-Netters, Please disreguard my comment about trying JJ. I would fly TAP or IB. They have a good product. MCOflyer
29 Hardiwv : GRU will operates 2 daily flights about 10 months before GIG even get an (unconfirmed) additional flight, does it mean something? Yes, GRU is more im
30 C010T3 : I think you should read my post one more time before saying anything. Perhaps you should read the whole thread one more time, because I'm not sure if
31 LipeGIG : While in GIG several people are forced to connect at GRU, like you, myself, and dozens more. You can say a lot about the power of Sao Paulo Hardi, bu
32 Post contains images AF086 : Also It's been stated in this forum that GIG could have a F service. I guess that having the first NEV lounge in the world must mean something right?
33 Hardiwv : I think it should start with you. Sao Paulo COULD not, Sao Paulo IS South America no. 1 business center, and therefore number one airport/gateway. In
34 LipeGIG : Hardi, To connect someone the first step is the international flight... seems that Rio keeps only a few destinations and 1/4 of GRU flights. Also, dom
35 Hardiwv : My friend Lipe: this is why I always state that GRU in its own generates about 50% of the loads - or about the same it generates for the Brazilian ec
36 LipeGIG : And i always states it's too much. As you will never accept my number and i cannot accept yours, better take a chopp at Ipanema Beach ! With 5x GRU-J
37 Post contains images Hardiwv : Lipe: indeed, I think only a chopp in Ipanema will mend our fences! No worry, I love GIG as much as I love Rio... and you can be sure: while Sao Paulo
38 C010T3 : I'm sorry if you can't take criticism...
39 Post contains images AF086 : I agree with you (and I guess we all do) but, unfortunately, that's not the way things work. I have to agree there. Is there room for an extra person
40 Viscount724 : Excellent loads do not always mean excellent profits. Many airlines have discovered this the hard way and no longer exist. SAO has much more high-yie
41 LipeGIG : In this case, this route use to be 1st ranked on RG and one of few really profitable and due to this they used their 2 best metals (the only two 772
42 Hardiwv : You are correct in both statements. We cannot think that airlines are guided by "UNprofitable" or "irrational" principles. Airlines will NOT operate
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