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TU-154 Landing Video. What A Contrast  
User currently offlineBalandorlivery From UK - England, joined Jan 2005, 360 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 19786 times:

I hope this link works...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe50R7Iufls

In this video of a landing the atmosphere is very loud with raised voices continuously. It is in stark contrast to anything i've seen before from a 'western' cockpit video.

It gives (and do not take this the wrong way) a somewhat disorderly impression.

And what is the captain doing with the controls on finals!!!!!!!

Enjoy discussing............

75 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLegacy135 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1052 posts, RR: 26
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 19706 times:

What in the hell is that Captain talking all the time? Normally SOP's say somewhat like "......... in terminal areas no unessential talking........."

Maybe somebody speaking Russian could tell us the subject of the Captain's ongoing talking.

Cheers
Legacy135 Wink


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9537 posts, RR: 42
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 19665 times:

I don't speak a word of Russian but it looks to me as if the Captain is... ahem... "coaching" the FO.  Smile

User currently offlineAC747 From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 277 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 19544 times:

That's hilarious !
Any idea which Russian airline that might be ? Any way of telling ?
Also, was that a training flight do you think, or a passenger service ?
I'd hate to think the crew were behaving like that during landing if I was back in the cabin. I thought the captain was going to lean over and hit the poor guy !!



Haven't we been here before ?
User currently onlineRIXrat From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 789 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 19461 times:

Don't speak Russian either, but the F/O was calling out the altitude from 40 meters on down. I may be wrong, but is it not SOP for the non-flying officer to call out landing altitudes in order not to distract the flying pilot.

So, was the captain flying the aircraft, but his violent yanking of the controls didn't seem to move the plane a bit as far as can be seen from the video. When he let go the stick moved by itself, indicating that he had reset to autopilot, or the F/O was flying. I heard the flight engineer twice, but otherwise he kept his mouth shut. Can you imagine if he had joined in the fray.

We need a Russian-speaker to straighten this one out.


User currently offlineThom@s From Norway, joined Oct 2000, 11955 posts, RR: 46
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 19415 times:

I dunno what was said, but I would NOT want to be on that plane during landing...

Thom@s



"If guns don't kill people, people kill people - does that mean toasters don't toast toast, toast toast toast?"
User currently offlineRJ100 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2000, 4121 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 19264 times:

Cool clip.

I did not understand everything. But in the end he is counting.

10 desyat
9 devyat
8 vociem
7 siem
6 schest
5 pyat
4 tschetirie
3 tri
2 dva
1 odin

Once he mentions "horosho" which means good. Seems like the captain explaining something to the FO. Maybe I will understand more once I have finished my language training in Russian Big grin .

Regards,
RJ100



none
User currently offlineBA777 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2181 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 19200 times:

The timers sound like the ones in Wallace and Gromit!

Interersting video, not quite my cup of tea...

Henry


User currently offlineSketty222 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1778 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 19136 times:

It sounded like someone was ringing the bell off of a bicycle about 1min before landing

Lee



There's flying and then there's flying
User currently offlineDeC From Greece, joined Aug 2005, 616 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 19107 times:

Woah, the captain's such a tight one! Excellent video!


DEC
User currently offlineNoelg From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 19008 times:

Excellent video! It looked like the captain was giving the F/O a bollocking for being a bit harsh on the controls with the sarcastic movements on the controls - you can imagine him saying "You're handling it like this!".

Eastern European/Russian flightdecks do seem to have a lot more shouting going on than Western aircraft - even for routine flights. Watch the SkyEurope JustPlanes DVD and you'll see it's the same there to some extent.


User currently offline3MilesToWRO From Poland, joined Mar 2006, 281 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 18952 times:

Looks like a training flight. Most of talk is altitute, speed and disance readouts. Something about wing mechanization, too (someone was late with flaps, or whatever, I think). There are some comments in style "how are you doing it, it's not good", but the captain's voice makes impression there is more useless noise than indeed is  Smile At the end captain after all says "molodyets", which means "good boy", so it wasn't so bad  Wink
IIRC there are 3-person crews in 154, so some more talk than with 2 would be obvious.
What the captain does with the yoke is a trainer exaggeration of what the trainee does - he says moment before "you are shaking it".


User currently offlineUSAFHummer From United States of America, joined May 2000, 10685 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 18922 times:

Quoting AC747 (Reply 3):
Any idea which Russian airline that might be ? Any way of telling ?

I think its Sibir...if you look at the keywords the videographer has chosen, both S7 and Sibir are there...



Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
User currently offlineOlegShv From Sweden, joined Mar 2006, 683 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 18899 times:

I've seen this video before, and from what I've read in the Russian forums, the guy who posted it got in trouble at the company where he worked. So here I tried to translate what they were saying. There is definitely no "unessential talking" in this video, and no one is cursing or anything like that.

The FO is actually very new to this type. As the video starts, the captain says that the spoilers need to be retracted and he is not happy as they loose airspeed, then they read the checklist at the end of 1 minute. The FO did not extend the flaps in time and the captain was not impressed.

They extend the flaps, captain asks to check the rwy winds with ATC, the FO checks with ATC (at about 1:40) and then the captain tells him extend the gear and he puts the gear lever down (1:45).

After that captain tells the engineer to set the engines to 83% N1 (1:50). At about 2:00, the captain says that the FO should "command him" to turn on the landing lights and extend the flaps to 36 degrees. Then the FO says that they intercepted the glideslope, but the captain points him to show that they haven't yet (2:15).

Full flaps (45 degrees) at 2:20, and they start reading landing checklist, and at 2:38 they finish the checklist reporting to ATC that they are ready to land. At 2:40 just as the camera zooms in to the approaching runway, the ATC clears them for landing.

At 2:45 the FO says that they are a tad to high, and the captain commands 81% N1 to the engineer.
As they go over the OM, you can hear the buzzer, and the captain says that FO shouldn't wabble the yoke left and right (2:55- 3:00). At 3:05 captain commands 80%N1 to the engineeer, while FO reports the speed is 290.

At 3:10 the captain moves the yoke left and right and tells the FO that his "wabbling" left and right is pointless and the plane will just go straight. At 3:25, FO reports speed 280. At 80 meters FO requests decision, the captain replies so that they proceed with landing.

Then the FO counts down the altitude until they land, and then he reads out the speed as they decelerate on the runway.


User currently offlineBALandorLivery From UK - England, joined Jan 2005, 360 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 18885 times:

The pilots never touched the throttles until they had landed!!

Is it normal for the engineers to control the throttles on approach in this aircraft type/company?


User currently offlineOlegShv From Sweden, joined Mar 2006, 683 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 18831 times:

Quoting BALandorLivery (Reply 14):
The pilots never touched the throttles until they had landed!!

Is it normal for the engineers to control the throttles on approach in this aircraft type/company?

I've read a book written by a Russian captain of Tu-154 about his work and flying the Tu-154. It seems like it is engineer's job to control the throttles according the captains requests, although the pilots could also use the levers that they have if necessary.


User currently offlineThom@s From Norway, joined Oct 2000, 11955 posts, RR: 46
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 18823 times:

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 6):
1 odin

No kidding? Cool.  Smile

Thom@s



"If guns don't kill people, people kill people - does that mean toasters don't toast toast, toast toast toast?"
User currently offlineWN230 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 341 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 18771 times:

Looks like the capt. doesn't want just anybody piloting the plane. Just a little tough love, that's all.  Wink

WN230



Judas Priest North American tour in '08 . . . cannot wait!!!
User currently offlineBucky707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1028 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 18681 times:

Quoting BALandorLivery (Reply 14):
The pilots never touched the throttles until they had landed!!

I got a ride in a Royal Air Force VC-10 once. The engineer handled the throttles all the time, right down to the flare, with the pilots calling out power settings.


User currently offlineAeroflot777 From Russia, joined Mar 2004, 3012 posts, RR: 26
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 18619 times:

Not much to say here really. Listened to the words, seemed like a training flight. Altitude was called out during the entire descent. New pilot was trying to fly aircraft and captain was giving him advice. The captain was a bit annoyed by the constant movement that the new pilot applied to the throttle and told him to stop, by showing him that moving it around won't really alter much, therefore there was no point. Pretty much it.

-Aeroflot777


User currently offlinePRGDLGUY From Czech Republic, joined Sep 2006, 101 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 18560 times:

Quoting 3MilesToWRO (Reply 11):
IIRC there are 3-person crews in 154, so some more talk than with 2 would be obvious.

On some Tu154 are four person crews - the fourth is navigator.


User currently offlineDeC From Greece, joined Aug 2005, 616 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 18499 times:

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 19):
The captain was a bit annoyed by the constant movement that the new pilot applied to the throttle and told him to stop, by showing him that moving it around won't really alter much, therefore there was no point. Pretty much it.

You probably mean ‘yoke’.



DEC
User currently offlineDeC From Greece, joined Aug 2005, 616 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 18492 times:

Quoting OlegShv (Reply 13):
At 3:10 the captain moves the yoke left and right and tells the FO that his "wabbling" left and right is pointless and the plane will just go straight.

Does anyone else find that movement a bit violent or dangerous and slightly out of place? I mean the captain clearly has a point there but I was amazed to see that abrupt movement...plus, again the pilot is 100% right with his remarks but I truly think that his tone and general attitude won’t do any good, on the contrary, he might have actually stressed the F/O even more, leading to more mistakes. What do you think?



DEC
User currently offlineLevg79 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 995 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 17914 times:

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 1):
Maybe somebody speaking Russian could tell us the subject of the Captain's ongoing talking.

As already mentioned, it's clear that the captain is teaching the F/O and is giving out some pointers to him about what needs to be done and how.

Quoting AC747 (Reply 3):
I thought the captain was going to lean over and hit the poor guy !!

Actually the F/O mentioned capturing the glideslope and the captain leaned over and pointed out that it hadn't been captured yet.

Quoting RIXrat (Reply 4):
but the F/O was calling out the altitude from 40 meters on down. I may be wrong, but is it not SOP for the non-flying officer to call out landing altitudes in order not to distract the flying pilot.

Actually from speaking to a former Soviet pilot, it is F/E's job to call out altitude so the F/O was solely doing the flying.

Quoting Noelg (Reply 10):
It looked like the captain was giving the F/O a bollocking for being a bit harsh on the controls with the sarcastic movements on the controls - you can imagine him saying "You're handling it like this!".

This is exactly what he said!

Quoting OlegShv (Reply 13):
Then the FO counts down the altitude until they land, and then he reads out the speed as they decelerate on the runway.

Once again, that is F/E's job.

By the way, thank you OlegShv for your contribution. Otherwise I was about to do the whole translation issue.

Leo.



A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
User currently offlineOlegShv From Sweden, joined Mar 2006, 683 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 17566 times:

Quoting PRGDLGUY (Reply 20):
On some Tu154 are four person crews - the fourth is navigator.

I'm pretty sure that most if not all of Russian (or former USSR) operators of Tu-154 have crews of 4 on this type (compared to the crews of 3 in the European operators of Tu-154). From what I understand, there is no IRS on that type and there aren't as many VOR/DMEs installed across the vast territory of Russia compared to Europe and USA, so to reduce the workload on the pilots, they have a navigator in the crew. Also, IIRC, the navigator is authorized to perform radio communications with ATC.

Interesting thing is that newer Ilyushin 96-300 equipped with IRS, but they still assign a navigator to the crew (so there are crews of 4). However, I guesss this is just because SU and other Russian Il-96 operators don't want to lay off navigators who worked there for 25-30 years and they'll just let those folks retire.


25 OlegShv : Well, from dynamics viewpoint this is a heavy aircraft (relatively), so it acts as a low-pass filter, so to speak. Meaning that it has too much inert
26 Remcor : My wife speaks Russian and I played it for her. It's clearly a teaching flight, and although the Captain seems like a bit of a jerk, he is correcting
27 Post contains images ACDC8 : Fantastic video! Those of us who have done any form of flight at all have surley had such an instructor, grabbing the controls, a few harsh words and
28 Aeroflot777 : LMAO, yes I do indeed. Haven't slept for 2 days. My apologies! Aeroflot777
29 Post contains images Solnabo : I´ve got the same sound on my doorbell. My house is from the 60´s too.. Jeeeehhh... Micke//
30 AsstChiefMark : I thought the captain sounded a lot like Oskar Kokoshka from the Hey Arnold cartoon. Sort of yelling and whining at the same time.
31 Post contains images 3MilesToWRO : So it's all clear. Someone wanted to get into the cockpit Well, not 100% cool It's read "adin", "a" like in "afterburner".
32 HaveBlue : My buddy has flown L-1011's for a few different companies outside of the states, and as FE or 2nd officer he manipulates the throttles at the PF's cal
33 Mika : The captain's behavior does seem abit rough yes, although i'm sure that this is just tough love and that it produces a good pilot in the end. Russian
34 Francoflier : This is a comment posted by someone who apparently speaks russian, it's below the video on Youtube: "The Captain's teaching the F/O to land just like
35 Post contains images 3MilesToWRO : I suppose the Russian commenting on "intimidating the student" has just failed his driver's licence exam and is blaming his own instructor I highly d
36 BALandorLivery : I am an instructor and I would never behave like this. The is a very authoritarian atmosphere and can lead to a dangerous breakdown in CRM. Synergy is
37 Aeroflot777 : As much as it seems like he was yelling at him. He really wasn't. Just a high voice. They were all talking loudly in the first place. Aeroflot777
38 LH648 : Most of Russian Airlines are taking the guys right after pilot school with 60 hours on prop and making them F/O of Tu154, not the easiest plane to fly
39 Albird87 : I do live how the captain doesnt really seem to notice that his sunblind is down until like 10 seconds before landing!! It seems that he is more inter
40 MBJ2000 : May be true, but doesn't have a pilot to prove he can handle stress situation well? IIRC jetfighter pilot candidates have to overcome even more stres
41 Logos : Off topic a bit, but this is actually similar to how they teach driving in Germany as well. Fahrschule (driving school) is a serious affair where the
42 Wing : I kind of find it funny to sit with jacket on during the flight.I mean I feel very uncortable with the jacket I took it off while driving to the airpo
43 PILOTALLEN : It sounds like Borat in the backround hah....its interesting to see the TU-154 toolin around with the pilot instructing...
44 Turpentyine : He is teaching with a typical russian teacher temperament. Russian students experience this from kindergarden on. So to the FO it is probebly normal a
45 B777ER : They just yell now..I imagine back in the 70's and 80's the captain would have pulled a Makarov out and held it to the F/O's head.
46 Turpentyine : Hey can you tell me the name of the book id like to read it too. Thnx
47 Post contains images 797 : What a mess! I wouldn't like to be in that flight, I don't know, all the yelling and disorder inside the cockpit made me rather nervous. Also when te
48 Post contains images Legacy135 : Nothing against the TU-154, it's a rock solid airplane. But what the Captain shows here is just about anything as "teaching and learning" should not
49 Post contains images OV735 : Just goes to show that old habits die hard. Flight schooling is still like it was in the times of the USSR - military style. I must say, the captain s
50 Post contains images Francoflier : Yes, I did believe there was some of that too, I guess the Tu-154 cabin is a bit loud... Man I'd love to fly that thing.
51 TrojanAE : I actually have, having taken a few driving classes from an older Sovier-mentality instructor in Lithuania. It is exactly the same atmosphere as show
52 Hmmmm... : Where do the russians get their beacon warning tones from? Sounds like there is a bicycle bell under the seat. LOL. I'd laugh to hear what the stall a
53 707lvr : Cultural thing. Russkies can be abrupt, excitable. It's cold there. And Russian can sound a bit like crazy talk sometimes. I'd love to hear what they
54 ChicagoFlyer : If I am a flying (or driving) instructor with an inexperienced understudy at the controls, besides the noble desire to educate the youngster (called P
55 Hmmmm... : The Russians are not the worst at CRM. There was a Turkish flight a few years back where the pilot and co-pilot managed to get into a fist fight. Prob
56 Thom@s : Oh, in that case not cool at all... hehe. Thom@s
57 DeC : Yeah, i have to agree with you. I too thought the captain's attitude was a bit out of hand but indeed, it will probably do more good to the f/o to be
58 Aeroflot777 : Complete BS. Where the heck do you get this info from? What accidents? The pilot was doing his job training the new pilot. No harm done, plane on the
59 Post contains images FYODOR : Guys... Aeroflot777 explained you the things well but... You already know the answers - Russians are horrible, rough etc. 707lvr is very correct. Ther
60 Post contains images B777ER : Also see "Russian economy".
61 Hmmmm... : Yes, I must be mistaken. It is total myth that Russian airliners have a much worse accident rate and safety record. And the moon landing? Faked /sarc
62 SCCutler : Although I did notice a King KLN90 GPS in the panel...
63 3MilesToWRO : Yeah. And on Tenerife 747 captain was not patient enough to wait for clear take-off permission. And two pilots of Canadair got to 41000 feet like pla
64 Wing : Ohhaaa ! A sunni and the other shite?Where did you get all this bullshit from?
65 Post contains images OlegShv : And those smart Canadian pilots from AirTransat who successfully cross-fed all the fuel into the Atlantic ocean (well, at least they landed safely, g
66 B777ER : True, years ago I believe it was a United crew that fell asleep going to an airport on the US west coast. Believe they were a ways off the coast befo
67 Post contains links WSOY : Sorry, but your facts need updating, even the age was wrong. The accident was a far more complicated issue. Among other things, the co-pilot was a ve
68 Flyorski : This is completely offensive, get your facts straight.
69 Aeroflot777 : That's your opinion. I'd definitely rather have my instructor be hardcore on me, so I will learn and not make mistakes. In America for instance most
70 FYODOR : Just to continue you words - some facts instead of ignorant stereotypes: Russia GDP growth 2001 5,1 2002 4,7 2003 7,3 2004 7,4 2005 6,4 US GDP growth
71 Levg79 : That actually was a good thing about the Soviet Union in the 70's and 80's, ordinary people did not have access to weapons. So Makarov is definitely
72 Eastbay : Aeroflot 777, Good luck to you and your flight studies. I hope that you do learn and progress and make it to the right seat and eventually the left se
73 RedFlyer : Most pilots have to prove they can handle distractions in the cockpit...after they master the basics of flying. It's obvious this FO is still in the
74 ContnlEliteCMH : Does anybody else think the instrument panel of that plane is vaguely reminscient of a 1950's Chevy?
75 Aeroflot777 : That's the problem right there..... He wasn't berating him. It's the standard way of training, nothing extraordinary about it WHATSOEVER. Just becaus
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