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Why Not More Detroit - Europe  
User currently offlineDetroitflyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 391 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4202 times:

Currently detroit only serves the following cities regurarly non stop

Frankfurt, paris, london, amsterdam and soon to be brussels and duserdorf...

I wondering with detroit having a massive polish population why they dont have detroit - warsaw.
Also if you can get non stops to durseldorf why cant you fill flights to zurich, rome( i believe its only seasonal), milan and maybe vienna (which should have larger markets)????
It would really be nice to see some other european metal here execpt from BA, LH and AF.

Why not??


Boiler Up!!!
22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4171 times:

One word: KLM

Northwest cannot effectively fly DTW-smaller European airports - the O&D and business traffic is simply not there.

However, KLM can do this via Amsterdam quite effectively, so DTW-WAW is done via AMS with KLM metal for part of the trip. Remember, it's all about yields, not what kind of local traffic has relatives in that country. The front 10% of the plane pays for more than half the flight.

United does the same (for the most part) with its association with LH - hit the big airports, but funnel "smaller" airport traffic through Frankfurt and Lufthansa.

When NW determines that a non-stop is needed from DTW to other locations in Europe, they'll find a way to make it happen. But for now, let KLM handle those other destinations.



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User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7521 posts, RR: 28
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4141 times:

Quoting Detroitflyer (Thread starter):
I wondering with detroit having a massive polish population why they dont have detroit - warsaw.
Also if you can get non stops to durseldorf why cant you fill flights to zurich, rome( i believe its only seasonal), milan and maybe vienna (which should have larger markets)????
It would really be nice to see some other european metal here execpt from BA, LH and AF.

FCO (Rome) is speculated to return perhaps this summer/seasonal, but it is getting rather late, and the latest word was no decision had been made, thus meaning it probably won't
MXP was flown for one summer (2000) on the DC-10 and it performed absolutely terrible. It won't ever return, I'm certain of that.
Vienna & Warsaw are just too small to be effectively served, and would rely to heavily on VFR/tourist traffic, which still wouldn't be enough to fill an A330.

As said, the ease of NW/KLM connections in AMS helps to fill these types of routes. DTW may be a massive NW hub, but its not an ORD/JFK/ATL.


User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7642 posts, RR: 36
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4136 times:

Quoting Detroitflyer (Thread starter):
duserdorf...

Who's going to be doing the DTW-DUS run? Is LH starting another PrivatAir flight or will it be a NW aircraft?

EDIT: Never mind, I just checked out the DUS website, turns out it is NW. It'll be nice to see them there.

[Edited 2007-01-16 06:07:38]


A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3178 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4122 times:

Most of the Polish in the Detroit area are 2nd and 3rd generation, meaning most probably cannot speak a word of Polish other than Kielbasa and dupa... and/or most do not know their 2nd and 3rd cousins that may still be in Poland. For example, my great grandparents came from Poland, my grandparents were born here and learned Polish before English, while my mother did not know a word of Polish... until she took classes much later in life. Some of my relatives have gone and visited Poland, but most don't know anyone currently over there. I am not sure how that relates to other Polish-Americans in the Detroit area.

If you remember, LOT flew Il-62s to DTW for charters during the 1980s.

Had Northwest not had an alliance with Sky Team or KLM, we probably would be seeing more direct point to point European flights but with smaller planes. I am sure Northwest may have in that case ordered some 767s or something in the early 1990s as they were building up the DTW hub.

What surprises me more than DTW to Europe, is why aren't there more flights between DTW and the Middle East as the Middle Eastern/Arabic population is far bigger than the Polish population.... and why not more flights to Asia? Go to Novi, and some of the other Western suburbs where there is a huge Indian population. Why doesn't Northwest have direct flights to India? And does NW Flight 67 from AMS still originate in India? I thought it didn't anymore


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7521 posts, RR: 28
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4096 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 4):
And does NW Flight 67 from AMS still originate in India? I thought it didn't anymore

The official routing is SEA-AMS-BOM on an A330-200 (NW 33/34).
However, 67 does allow for easy connections from the BOM-AMS flight. (Which there are often very many).

NW was to fly AMS-BLR, but the route was pulled before it started (Ch.11 filing)


User currently offlineDetroitflyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4093 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 4):
What surprises me more than DTW to Europe, is why aren't there more flights between DTW and the Middle East as the Middle Eastern/Arabic population is far bigger than the Polish population....

 checkmark 
always wondered the same thing.... why is emirates and eithad serving nyc and not dtw, also i hope and think if USA - IRAQ service ever starts dtw will be the launch....

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 4):
and why not more flights to Asia? Go to Novi, and some of the other Western suburbs where there is a huge Indian population.

I graduated from Novi high last year, and lived in farmington in middle school and i can tell you that while most of the asians who live there are of chineese/korean descent, the indian population is growing astronomically and maybe one day there will be enough to fill flight daily, but i dont see that happening too soon.



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User currently offlineCHI787ORD From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 517 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4055 times:

Quoting Detroitflyer (Thread starter):
Why Not More Detroit - Europe



Quoting Detroitflyer (Thread starter):
I wondering with detroit having a massive polish population why they dont have detroit - warsaw.

It also doesnt help that New York, Toronto, and Chicago all make a triangle around Detroit... all three having bigger business and leisure traffic.


User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3178 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4050 times:

Quoting Detroitflyer (Reply 6):
always wondered the same thing.... why is emirates and eithad serving nyc and not dtw, also i hope and think if USA - IRAQ service ever starts dtw will be the launch....

Most of the Middle Easterners that live in the Detroit area are Palestinean (do not have an airline), Lebonese (believe that Middle East Airlines is still banned from the U.S.) and Iraqi (as of right now, don't have an airline). Royal Jordanian is located right in the middle of the three nationalities mentioned. There are also a large proportion of Iranians in Detroit, but does Iran Air have any service to the USA with all the problems going on?

I really do not think Emirates would fly to DTW, or Etihad anytime soon. There aren't a lot of people in the Detroit area from the UAE and that region of the Middle East.

I could see MEA eventually flying to DTW and maybe Royal Jordanian adding frequency to 4X a week.

I believe right about the time the Invasion of Iraq started in 2003, Northwest said it was interested and I believe planning flights between DTW and Baghdad. However, I highly doubt that Iraq will become stabilized soon.

Right now, it is more convenient for a traveller going to the Palestinean regions, or Lebanon to fly KLM, Lufthansa and transfer at AMS/FRA or Royal Jordanian and transfer at Amman, than to overfly his country of destination and land in the UAE and backtrack.

Quoting Detroitflyer (Reply 6):
I graduated from Novi high last year, and lived in farmington in middle school and i can tell you that while most of the asians who live there are of chineese/korean descent, the indian population is growing astronomically and maybe one day there will be enough to fill flight daily, but i dont see that happening too soon.

Korea will be coming back, I am almost positive (though not official). That is why Northwest ordered the 787. They couldn't fill a 744 when the Asia economic crisis hit in the late 1990s, but they could fill a 787.

If anything happens between Delta and Northwest such as mergers, I could see Korean Air flying to DTW over ATL, even if Northwest becomes Delta - for the same reasons why Emirates would probably not fly to DTW.

a. more Koreans in Detroit area
b. DTW is closer to ICN than ATL, as well as less backtracking for most connections - especially in the Northeast and Great lakes area.

I see the 787s being used to other areas that once or still have major connections through NRT, such as Taipei, Manila and Beijing/Peking depending on Government regulation etc.

I myself really wonder if Northwest is going to keep its NRT hub after the 787s come into the fleet.

I never fully understood the NRT hub. Is cabotage occuring there? ie People just flying between NRT-TPE with no continuation onto the U.S.?


User currently offlineDetroitflyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4013 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 8):
(believe that Middle East Airlines is still banned from the U.S.)

wait a sec... they are banned ?? why???

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 8):
but does Iran Air have any service to the USA with all the problems going on?

doesnt the USA have an embargo against iran, similar to that of Cuba?? I dont think USA - Iran will be happening any time soon..... Uncle Sam even tried (succesfully) to block Canada-Iran flights.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 8):
I never fully understood the NRT hub. Is cabotage occuring there? ie People just flying between NRT-TPE with no continuation onto the U.S.?

I have read on this site that NRT is as important, if not more important that the DTW and MSP hubs, so im guessing, YES, they do have a lot of traffic within asia.



Boiler Up!!!
User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 38
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4000 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 8):
There are also a large proportion of Iranians in Detroit, but does Iran Air have any service to the USA with all the problems going on?

The US hasn't had diplomatic relations with Iran since the embassy takeover, and isn't going to allow the airline to fly to the US.

Quoting Detroitflyer (Reply 9):
doesnt the USA have an embargo against iran, similar to that of Cuba?? I dont think USA - Iran will be happening any time soon.

Not like Cuba. The embargo against Cuba restricts US citizens from going there and spending money. Americans can go to Iran but they can't get there directly.



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User currently offlineMennix From Germany, joined Dec 2006, 69 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3842 times:

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 3):



Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 3):
Never mind, I just checked out the DUS website, turns out it is NW. It'll be nice to see them there.

You're right. It will be NW. However they're planning to come in with a 757, which will be absolutely on it's range limit. I'm not sure, if this is a really good idea. KL/NW timetable shows DUS-DTW with a distance of 4037 miles. NWA itself shows here only a max. range of 4000 miles. I think this flight could sometimes ( fully booked, strong wind ) a really PITA.


User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3888 posts, RR: 28
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 3729 times:

Yea, NWA didn't think the 757 service to Europe through at all. Probably just woke up one morning and decided to make a go of it. They're configuring the a/c with fewer seats and winglets and that will help with the range. I'm sure they've been planning this for a very long time with an incredible amount of strategizing and contingency planning.

As far as having DTW-Poland routes... Why don't they just start MSP-Mogadishu flights while they're at it. I mean, there's a HUGE Somlian population in the Twin cities metro area.

NWA will likely expand into DTW-India and mideast routes when the 787 comes online. Until then, they don't have an a/c that will suitably serve those destinations nonstop from DTW.

Without NRT, there would be no NWA. When the 787s come online they will indeed be used to overfly the NRT hub. But they'll do that while commanding a premium for those services. For those unwilling to pay the premium, there will still be connections offered via NRT. Also, everyone seems to forget that NWA has a HUGE amount of customers that are ASIAN! If NWA got rid of the NRT hub, that would completely alienate that segment of their clientele. I


AZJ


User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2211 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3615 times:

I'm sure one of the reasons NW chose Dusseldorf was because of Ford; Ford has one of their largest European facilities near Cologne, which will provide a good base of traffic, especially in WBC.

I was actually a little surprised NW chose DUS over CGN; I guess the larger local DUS market was the deciding factor.

Iraqi Airways was actually planning to begin service to DTW in 1991. They would have served DTW on a DTW-JFK-Baghdad routing. I think the flights would have stopped somewhere in Europe, because IA didn't have any aircraft with the range to make it nonstop from JFK to the Middle East.

Iraqi Airways had a ticket office in Southfield, on Southfield Road in a strip mall at the northeast corner of the Southfield Road / Ten Mile Road intersection, for many years in the 1980s. Iraq's invasion of Kuwait in 1990 ended IA's plans to serve DTW; the ticket office was boarded up very quickly after the invasion.



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User currently offlineMennix From Germany, joined Dec 2006, 69 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3587 times:

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 13):
I was actually a little surprised NW chose DUS over CGN; I guess the larger local DUS market was the deciding factor.

Not to forget, that CGN has already a lousy 757 trans-atlantic connection with CO to EWR. I live in ( near ) CGN, am Sky-Team Plat fly a lot to the US but would never use this senseless flight to EWR  Smile


User currently offlineNW748i From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 362 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3454 times:

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 12):
Why don't they just start MSP-Mogadishu flights while they're at it. I mean, there's a HUGE Somlian population in the Twin cities metro area.

Good point...

Quoting Detroitflyer (Reply 9):
they are banned ?? why???

From what I know, that was a result of the terrorist attacks in the early 1980s.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 8):
I believe right about the time the Invasion of Iraq started in 2003, Northwest said it was interested and I believe planning flights between DTW and Baghdad. However, I highly doubt that Iraq will become stabilized soon.

What ever gave you that impression?  Wink NW was looking to invest in DTW-SDA, but alas...

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 8):
People just flying between NRT-TPE with no continuation onto the U.S.?

Yup.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 8):
Royal Jordanian is located right in the middle of the three nationalities mentioned.

I was an intern in Jordan a few years back and did just a bit of research on the situation of Royal Jordanian as far as their privatization and restructuring. Since then, however, Emirates and Etihad have become real gangbusteras and I think it's safe to say that as DXB is better placed than AMM and has much more O&D, Jordan's hopes of being the main regional hub have been dashed.

Quoting Detroitflyer (Reply 6):
I graduated from Novi high last year, and lived in farmington in middle school and i can tell you that while most of the asians who live there are of chineese/korean descent, the indian population is growing astronomically

Wow, I grew up in Farmington Hills. The Indian population around Grand River and Halsted has been growing for some time. I find that the exceptional culinary skills of our new friends are most welcome... mmm mmm good!

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 5):
However, 67 does allow for easy connections from the BOM-AMS flight. (Which there are often very many).

NW was to fly AMS-BLR, but the route was pulled before it started (Ch.11 filing)

I've been chatting about this on another thread and am waiting to hear back from someone about it. But from what you know, were these flights based out of AMS?



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User currently offlineDtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1154 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3423 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 8):
There are also a large proportion of Iranians in Detroit, but does Iran Air have any service to the USA with all the problems going on?

Iran Air has no service to the U.S. and hasn't had for a long time. However just prior to the 1979 revolution they were awarded Non-stop service between Detroit and Tehran.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7521 posts, RR: 28
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3204 times:

Here's the link to the press release for AMS-BLR:
http://www.nwa.com/corpinfo/newsc/2005/pr022120051558.html

These flights were even loaded into the system for a while, but magically vanished overnight as the mechanics strike and then Ch. 11 filing occured.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7496 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3170 times:

To answer your questions, I think there are a couple of reasons why DTW doesnt see more traffic on an international level:

1) as some have mentioned, KLM can effectively serve Europe from DTW through AMS. It would not be in KLM's best interest to have NW serve a bunch of cities in Europe and the middle east that they can serve from AMS.

2) Another is its simple geographic location. ORD and NYC are on either side of DTW. There arent many carriers that would want to serve DTW over JFK or ORD.

Quoting Detroitflyer (Reply 6):
always wondered the same thing.... why is emirates and eithad serving nyc and not dtw, also i hope and think if USA - IRAQ service ever starts dtw will be the launch....

Despite Detroit's very large middle eastern population, most middle eastern carriers will serve JFK or ORD over DTW. The cities are simply much larger with more O&D.



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User currently offlineCHI787ORD From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 517 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3127 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 18):
Another is its simple geographic location. ORD and NYC are on either side of DTW. There arent many carriers that would want to serve DTW over JFK or ORD.

Dont forget YYZ to the north. Metro Detroit may have a large population, but its geographic proximity to New York, Chicago, and Toronto kills it with international airlines.


User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8541 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3123 times:
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Quoting Detroitflyer (Reply 9):
Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 8):
but does Iran Air have any service to the USA with all the problems going on?

doesnt the USA have an embargo against iran, similar to that of Cuba??

There was an American on my tour in Iran in September last year so I don't think the US Government has any prohibition on travel for US citizens - but I cant see IR being permitted to fly to the US



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User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26361 posts, RR: 76
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3098 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 8):
There are also a large proportion of Iranians in Detroit, but does Iran Air have any service to the USA with all the problems going on?

Even if IR had service to the US, Los Angeles and New York would come first.



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User currently offlineAcidradio From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1874 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3076 times:
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NW does not do more out of DTW because they lack the kind of equipment to do smaller cities. NW never ordered the 767, which is ideal for trans-Atlantic runs, unlike their competitors. If it was international and could not fill up a DC10, it was too small to make happen. Somewhere they decided to place more emphasis on the Asian markets and let KLM handle most of the European flying. Of course, now they are converting 757s to do smaller European cities and/or thinner routes to AMS. This is the hot thing to do lately, with equipment that is already on the property.

Rather than buy the 767, which did not have a standard-sized cargo bin (cargo being very important to NW's business model), they decided that it was more prudent to haul pax and cargo to a major European gateway like AMS and let their partner KLM haul them the rest of the way. When you look at it, NW is the only US trans-oceanic major pax carrier that did NOT buy the 767.



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