Tvnewsguy08 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 42 posts, RR: 0 Posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 19814 times:
look for info on wkyt.com
I just gleaned this from a live shot. Note, I still don't know which pilot said what:
Pilot: Thrust Set
Pilot: That is weird, No Lights
Pilot: Yeah
Pilot: 100 Knots
Pilot: Check
Pilot: vee one
Pilot: Rotate
Pilot: Whoa!
Sound of Impact at 6:06:33
FAA is supposed to release Tower conversations on faa.gov at noon.
Tvnewsguy08 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 42 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 19781 times:
Some more random ressages:
NTSB Releases Report
RECORDING FROM COCKPIT
5:44 a.m. (inter-cockpit)
“I guess, when I’m, I’m deciding on making a major decision. If it doesn’t feel right in my gut or if I don’t have a little voice, if it starts talking to me; and I’m like, I need to reevaluate.”
5:55 a.m. (on the PA)
“Ladies and gentlemen from the flight deck, [I would] like to take this time to welcome you also onboard Comair flight 5191, direct flight to Atlanta. We will be cruising at 27,000 feet this morning. And once we do get in the air, it looks like one hour and seven minutes en route.
“Hopefully, you can catch a nap going into Atlanta. It’s our pleasure having you all on board.”
6:00 am. (inter-cockpit)
“Both kids were sick, well, they all got colds. It was an interesting dinner last night.”
6:04 a.m. (on the PA)
“And, folks, one time from the flight deck, we would like to welcome you on board. We will be underway momentarily. Sit back, relax and enjoy the flight. Kelly, when you have a chance, please prepare the cabin.”
2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8950 posts, RR: 62 Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 19445 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW HEAD DATABASE EDITOR
So what's the deal? News sources are all reporting the transcript has been released, yet they're only providing the same few lines of text. Where's the complete transcript?
AvConsultant From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1360 posts, RR: 3 Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 19125 times:
Quoting 2H4 (Reply 2): News sources are all reporting the transcript has been released, yet they're only providing the same few lines of text.
This is crap the media pulls. "For the rest of the story tune in tonight at 6!!"
They'll probably release the details after the first news cast.
73G From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 127 posts, RR: 2 Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 19081 times:
Litz From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1745 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 19025 times:
According to the NTSB press release on the release of the documentation, it will be available via CD-ROM to news media ONLY ... no mention whatsoever of availability on the NTSB website ...
So all we get is what the news media bothers to quote and share.
AvConsultant From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1360 posts, RR: 3 Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 18978 times:
Quoting 73G (Reply 4): See new thread for transcripts
Same info as this thread. The CNN link is just as imformative.
73G From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 127 posts, RR: 2 Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 18959 times:
Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 6): Same info as this thread. The CNN link is just as imformative.
No, the CNN thread summarizes the transcript and offers bits and pieces. The actual transcript itself allows one to read from start to finish to create a full picture of what happened.
Quoting Litz (Reply 5): According to the NTSB press release on the release of the documentation, it will be available via CD-ROM to news media ONLY ... no mention whatsoever of availability on the NTSB website ...
So all we get is what the news media bothers to quote and share.
Just go to kentucky.com. There are several links to all of the reports released today by the NTSB...in their entirity.
RobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 890 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 18963 times:
AvConsultant From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1360 posts, RR: 3 Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 18908 times:
Quoting 73G (Reply 7): No, the CNN thread summarizes the transcript and offers bits and pieces. The actual transcript itself allows one to read from start to finish to create a full picture of what happened
Litz From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1745 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 18829 times:
You know ...
I think I clearly saw them confirm their runway heading in that transcript ...
this was discussed ad-nauseum back when the accident occurred : how could they not realize they were lined up wrong, due to the FMS (which would be pointing a big red line AWAY from directly ahead) unless they'd also programmed the wrong runway into the FMS itself ...
Bucky707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1028 posts, RR: 4 Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 18797 times:
Quoting Litz (Reply 10): how could they not realize they were lined up wrong, due to the FMS (which would be pointing a big red line AWAY from directly ahead)
The FMS will not always have a magenta line going out at runway heading. In ATL for example, all of the RNAV departures have the first fix offset from runway heading, so your magenta line will go from the end of the runway to that first fix. In fact I would say more often than not, your first course, in the FMS at least, is not on the runway heading.
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 7996 posts, RR: 27 Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 18763 times:
Thanks for that link.
Looks to me like they had no idea until literally the last second. A few things struck me as worth noting:
#1 the pilots commented on how "lights are out all over the place," regarding runway 8/26 and the REILs. This tells me they already had it in their minds that the lighting would be abnormal.
#2 the local controller did not say the runway number in his takeoff clearance, nor did the crew in their readback.
#3 despite commenting "this is weird, no lights" there was no further acknowledgment or query to the tower and the takeoff was continued as normal.
CasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3288 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 18705 times:
Everything about this crash is just tragic, the cvr makes it even more so.
God rest their souls, and hopefully it never happens like this again.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
Gregarious119 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 523 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 18557 times:
Quoting N766UA (Reply 12): #3 despite commenting "this is weird, no lights" there was no further acknowledgment or query to the tower and the takeoff was continued as normal.
From what I understand, they were already rolling at 115 mph (100 knots) by the time they commented on the lights. Given that they probably never made it to/above 160 knots (ballpark takeoff speed), they didn't have too much time to make sense of it, let alone try to ask the tower.
Bucky707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1028 posts, RR: 4 Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 18424 times:
Quoting Gregarious119 (Reply 14): Given that they probably never made it to/above 160 knots (ballpark takeoff speed), they didn't have too much time to make sense of it, let alone try to ask the tower.
the runways at LEX are very "crowned".....the middle is higher than either end of both runways. Even on a clear day in full sunlight, when you line up for takeoff you cannot see the other end of the runway. It's likely they did not realize a thing until too late.
Wjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 4557 posts, RR: 17 Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 18395 times:
Quoting N766UA (Reply 12): A few things struck me as worth noting:
#1 the pilots commented on how "lights are out all over the place," regarding runway 8/26 and the REILs. This tells me they already had it in their minds that the lighting would be abnormal.
Actually, the comment about lights being out relates to when the F/O "came in the other night". He's saying that when he came in, "it was, like, lights were out all over the place." I noticed that, as well, as one of the big questions is why they didn't think they were on the wrong runway with the runway that they were on not being lit and the one that they weren't on being lit. It appears that, as you note, they expected certain lights to be out. However, for an entire runway to be unlit, particularly when there is no ATIS or other advisory to that effect, is something that they should at least notice or inquire about. Why not ask the Tower if he could turn on/turn up the lights? If they had done so, the problem would have been discovered. In short, you're right. They anticipated some lighting issues and thus didn't question it when the runway they lined up on had none. Sloppy. Stupid. Deadly.
Quoting Gregarious119 (Reply 14): they didn't have too much time to make sense of it, let alone try to ask the tower.
They *commented* on how wierd the effect of no lights was as they were rolling, but it's not as if that was the first point at which they noticed it. It was totally evident that there were no lights on the runway even before they started their takeoff roll. This now makes sense: he wasn't suddenly saying, "Hey, wait a minute. There are no lights!" as if he is surprised. Instead, he is treating the absence of lighting as creating an unusual effect, but is assuming that there is no significance to it, other than that this airport is under construction and thus has lights out all over the place. That's why the captain just responds, "yeah."
I feel so bad for the Airtran pilot. If they had had him in the jumpseat rather than in the back, he would know, as a regular commuter, that they weren't in the right place. Instead, he got to watch them go down the wrong runway from his seat in the back.
Litz From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1745 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 18339 times:
Quoting Gregarious119 (Reply 14): Given that they probably never made it to/above 160 knots (ballpark takeoff speed), they didn't have too much time to make sense of it, let alone try to ask the tower.
The sad thing is, they were configured for normal takeoff power, for the longer runway.
Several people "armchair piloted" simulations after the crash, using both normal settings, and max thrust ... they crashed into the trees every single time using normal settings, and could just barely clear using max thrust. I think the calculations were they were 10-15knots below the speed needed for clearance.
So it was possible to use that runway for a successful takeoff ... but you almost had to treat it like launching off an aircraft carrier to do so.
Very sad, very tragic ... I'm sure (or at least I hope) pilots are double checking themselves before hitting the gas as a result ...
We have a saying in railroading : think twice, act once.
(RR equipment is very unforgiving, and you'll always bend first)
KarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2930 posts, RR: 9 Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 18326 times:
From The FAA Site:
FAA - Comair 5191 Accident Air Traffic Control (ATC) Tapes
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21029 posts, RR: 60 Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 18262 times:
Quoting Litz (Reply 17): We have a saying in railroading : think twice, act once.
I think that's the key to this tragedy. The pilots were very quick to dismiss any abnormalities rather than enquire about them. Compounding this was talking about family events rather than concentrating on the task at hand, the pre-flight checks. Distraction and lack of awareness seem to be contributing factor to this mistake, at least from the pilots' own words.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Onetogo From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 286 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 17901 times:
Quoting Litz (Reply 17): Several people "armchair piloted" simulations after the crash, using both normal settings, and max thrust
Pilotaydin From Turkey, joined Sep 2004, 2498 posts, RR: 50 Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 17796 times:
well......one minute you're on the ground listening to a short welcome speech about sleeping on the way to ATL....then a few mins later, they're collecting bodies.....
not what i wanted to read at night before bed, but i always stay close to crashes as it may sub consciously teach me something for my own cockpit survival one way or another...
RIP
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
Evan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2 Reply 22, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 17609 times:
So, whatever happened to the First Officer? Haven't heard much about him recently. Did he pass away?
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
Lowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 11 Reply 23, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 17500 times:
Quoting Evan767 (Reply 22): So, whatever happened to the First Officer?
He was released and, last I heard, was rehabing at home in Florida. He had extensive physical and neurological injuries. As far as I know, he never regained the memories of that day.
Full transcript of cockpit conversations........................
25 Litz: As far as I know, they have not ... it was only simmed by "armchair pilots" here on the forum ... It wouldn't surprise me, however, to discover that
26 Lostmoon744: He survived. He cannot remember anything that happened apparently.
27 Gh123: He flew back down to Atlanta in a private jet from lexington late last year. He lost a leg. He said that he wanted to talk to the press at some point
28 DTW757: Quite interesting to read the full transcript. They realized that the runway lights were not on but never realized they were on the wrong runway or at
29 ATCme: Was the controller's name ever released? What happened to him? His initials are C.D. As a side question, if a controller is implicated as PARTially re
30 Evan767: I wonder what his reaction will be/was when he sees/saw the transcript? Maybe sparked a memory?
31 N766UA: Not neccessarily. He uses CD when he talks to other facilities, but those aren't neccessarily his initials.
33 N766UA: In that case they are his initials... mystery solved!
34 KarlB737: Courtesy: WLS-TV Airline Says Pilots Violated Cockpit Conversation Rule Before Comair Crash That Killed 49 http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=na
35 Blackbird1331: There is an instument that every airplane has that will indicate the aircraft heading. It is supposed to match the runway orientatation. This is pilot
36 2H4: I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise... 2H4
37 AA87: Apologies if this was discussed, but anyone have insight on ground signs, how visible they were, were they legal, etc. ? when accidet happended my fir
38 N766UA: More than one. Check the runway number, the heading as read from the compass, and the heading displayed on the DH. If all 3 don't match up, something
39 Lowrider: If you look back to the time of the orginal crash, signs, headings, runway markings, lights, air traffic controllers, airport construction, and airpo
40 N766UA: Signs for that runway were unlit, as they should have been for an unused runway. Taxiway signs were all working and pointed the direction to the prop
41 AA87: Thanks N766UA, that's what I was looking for. Lowrider, I'm sure it was beat to death in the beginning when verified facts were few and speculation wa
42 AirWillie6475: I just read the entire recording of the pilots and what struck me was that there was literally no departure briefing other than the standard stop or
43 Wjcandee: A couple of points: (1) Although the public didn't hear much about the Israir incident, the aviation community did; (2) The ABX Air crew that providi
44 AvConsultant: After the crash my daily news brief posted an article from the Cincinnati Enquirer, the FAA recommended Comair, a week or two prior, enhance cockpit p
45 Positiverate: I wonder what "too much responsibility" means? I was listening to the ATC recording, and it sounds like there is music playing in the background of t
46 Kubus: I just read the cockpit transcript and it scared the hell out of me. I mean seriously… do all regional pilots think that flying in middle east for s
47 Planespotting: Yeah -- they would have had to use all short field procedures: hold the breaks till 90% N1, lil more flaps than normal (if possible?), full power...
48 Theweave33: Here's a link with the report on survival factors... http://www.kentucky.com/multimedia/kentucky/0117ntsbrelease/361096.pdf There's a diagrahm of wher
49 Tangowhisky: I read the entire transcript as well. What strikes me is that the co-pilot seemed a little too eager to carry on non-duty related discussions. He dra
50 N766UA: Disagree on that point. Pilots are all confident by nature, they have to be. You can't say "too much confidence" unless you honestly want timid, over
51 Litz: I'd have to doubt they made it out alive (armchair quarterbacking here, mind you) ... they were marked "red", which indicated fatal trauma. More like
52 ATCme: Red meant Fatal Thermal Injury, blue was trauma. Still, your point is what I think to be dead on, they were most likely thrown from the wreckage. Doe
53 AvConsultant: Big Time!! God Bless the First Responders!!
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