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BA 757 To YYT?  
User currently offlineBmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2384 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3759 times:

No that AC no longer flies YYT-LHT except for limited summer service on smaller A319s, should BA look at the feasibility of flying their 757s to YYT?

I just noticed in BA is flying 777s into YYC. Surely YYT must have the passenger market to support 3 or 4 times weekly YYT-LHR which their 757 can easily handle?

Or is YYT too small to justify ANY European airline to fly in?


The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMtnWest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2485 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3666 times:

Quoting Bmacleod (Thread starter):
Or is YYT too small to justify ANY European airline to fly in?

That would be my guess. A bit of difference in population, relevance, etc between anywhere in Newfoundland and Calgary.



"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlineAC_B777 From Canada, joined Aug 2000, 809 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3633 times:

I personally believe there is enough demand to warrant 3-5 days per week service to LHR. However, it has to be Heathrow.
Astreaus is planning on flying LGW-YDF-YYT-LGW in the near future, however, many people here think this is bound to fail due to LGW being the destination.
80-90% of people flying into LHR are connections to other destinations, and Gatwick doesn't accomodate those connections near as well as LHR.
I know 2 guys personally who do a lot of travel to Europe for business, and they have told me that going through any other UK airport other than LHR is a waste of time and a total inconvenience for them.
There are still enough pax travelling to LHR from YYT on a dailly/weekly basis to justify a flight 3-5X's per week. The loads from here are not much less than what are being flown from YHZ.
As for BA flying the route with 757's, it might work. The 757 has a good payload for baggage and cargo and they are proven on North Atlantic overseas operations with other airlines.
The question is, Does BA think it would be profitable for them to start a new run like this? To spend the money involved in starting a new route like this for a few times a week is probably a waste of time for them.



In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
User currently offlineBwaflyer From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 690 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3542 times:

BA 757s are configured as short haul aircraft with convertible Club Europe / Euro Traveller cabins. I doubt they would bother converting just one aircraft out of a relatively small fleet to operate one route. Regarding Astraeus operations to Canada (which start on Friday 19th), forward bookings have been very strong for the twice weekly LGW-YDF-YYT-LGW 737-700 flights (with strong loads originating at both ends). There's even talk about adding additional frequencies just to St Johns. After all Zoom have been operating very popular flights from all across Canada into LGW for several years.

User currently offlineLHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3540 times:

Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 2):
The question is, Does BA think it would be profitable for them to start a new run like this? To spend the money involved in starting a new route like this for a few times a week is probably a waste of time for them.

The problem I see with this is that we'd have to re-configure our 757's with at least a 3-class (J/W/M) product, to maintain consistency with our widebody longhaul fleet. Also, the new J flat-bed seat is probably too heavy for the forward cabin of the 757. I just don't think we'll be doing any longhaul flying with 757's.

Additionally, the 757 fleet is a small fleet, and likely to be replaced by Airbus-family (A320/321) in the next few years, so I doubt a cabin reconfiguration would really be cost-effective.

Finally, I don't believe we would offer an all-economy service (much like AA's 757's on the North Atlantic) as it wouldn't be in-line with our service style and philosophy of being a premium carrier.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26029 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3322 times:

Quoting Bwaflyer (Reply 3):
BA 757s are configured as short haul aircraft with convertible Club Europe / Euro Traveller cabins. I doubt they would bother converting just one aircraft out of a relatively small fleet to operate one route.

BA did operate the 757 some years ago (probably at least 10 years ago) on a BHX-JFK-YYZ route. They also had local traffic rights JFK-YYZ. As I recall it had an international configuration. I don't think they were the first 757 operator on scheduled Atlantic routes as Icelandair probably had their 757s in service by then. BA may have had another 757 route during that period, possibly GLA-JFK or MAN-JFK but I definitely remember the BHX-JFK-YYZ service. It probably lasted about 2 years, or perhaps less.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3247 times:

Quoting Bwaflyer (Reply 3):
BA 757s are configured as short haul aircraft with convertible Club Europe / Euro Traveller cabins.

YYT-LHR isn't that long a haul. It is less than a five hour flight.



a.
User currently offlineBrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3931 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3215 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6):
YYT-LHR isn't that long a haul. It is less than a five hour flight.

Be that as it may wouldnt it be a bit funny for people to board the 757 to see either a "club europe" or "Euro Traveller" headrest covers? Might be just a wee bit of confusion! IF BA WERE to operate this service, perhaps Bmed might be the tool, as it already does several runs to the east of similar stage length.

On a similar note, I remember reading a quote from a BA exec caliming that they were looking into the possibility of configuring some of the 757 fleet with a Club World cabin, in the stly of privat air. Weather WTP would have been included as well, or if was just to be club world, I do not know. This was around the time that privat air started to fly for LH. So clearly BA decided not to use the 757 on these types of missions, otherwise we would ahve seen it by now, I expect!

[Edited 2007-01-18 00:58:38]


Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26029 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3210 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6):
Quoting Bwaflyer (Reply 3):
BA 757s are configured as short haul aircraft with convertible Club Europe / Euro Traveller cabins.

YYT-LHR isn't that long a haul. It is less than a five hour flight.

Bwaflyer was referring to the BA 757 interior configuration, not the range capability. That's certainly not a problem for the 757 YYT-LHR (2012 nm) as you point out. AC has several domestic and Canada-US transborder nonstop sectors operated with A319/320/321 that are longer than YYT-LHR, and even a few EMB-175/190 nonstops that are just slightly shorter.


User currently offlineBMED From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2004, 860 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3154 times:

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 7):
perhaps Bmed might be the tool, as it already does several runs to the east of similar stage length.

But then thats still i bit confusing in the name for those who know what BMED stands for? Isn't there a bit of doubt over the BA franchise at the moment though? Good idea, can the A321 or A320 operate the route with the Atlantic head winds. I know the A321 range isn't the same compared to the 757.



Living the jetset life! No better way to be
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3097 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 8):

Bwaflyer was referring to the BA 757 interior configuration, not the range capability. That's certainly not a problem for the 757 YYT-LHR (2012 nm) as you point out. AC has several domestic and Canada-US transborder nonstop sectors operated with A319/320/321 that are longer than YYT-LHR, and even a few EMB-175/190 nonstops that are just slightly shorter.

I realize the 757 can easily do that route, but I'm just pointing out that I really don't think you need to have an international product on such a short route. Air Canada doesn't think so, since they are using the A319.



a.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26029 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2999 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
I realize the 757 can easily do that route, but I'm just pointing out that I really don't think you need to have an international product on such a short route. Air Canada doesn't think so, since they are using the A319.

But the AC A319 domestic business class product is far better than the BA Club Europe shorthaul product. AC has 2-2 seating, equivalent to US domestic first class with 39 inch pitch on A319, comparable or even better than most US domestic first class products. And you won't find PTVs and video/audio on demand on BA 757s, which AC is installing iin both J and Y classes on their entire mainline fleet, including new seats and other improvements. BA Club Europe on 757s (and 319/320/321/737) uses convertible seats that are 6-abreast when used for Y and 5-abreast when used for C, and I believe 34 inch pitch. They're acceptable for 1 or 2 hr. flights in Europe, but on a 5 hr. sector YYT-LHR it wouldn't compare to AC's A319/320/321 J product, both currently and even more so after the interior upgrades are completed. About a dozen AC A320s already modified and I believe the first A319 is due to be completed this month.


User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2234 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2912 times:
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Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 2):
There are still enough pax travelling to LHR from YYT on a dailly/weekly basis to justify a flight 3-5X's per week. The loads from here are not much less than what are being flown from YHZ.

Did AC give a reason for stopping YYT-LHR? Were yields just too low to justify the flight, despite good pax loads?

I like the BMED suggestion. IIRC they only have 149 seats in their A321, with a nice C product. I think their range is 5,500kms or something like that...



Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlineLHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2842 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
I realize the 757 can easily do that route, but I'm just pointing out that I really don't think you need to have an international product on such a short route. Air Canada doesn't think so, since they are using the A319.

What AC do in their premium cabins and what BA do are two entirely different things. BA only operates 3 (J/W/M) and 4 (F/J/W/M) class longhaul aircraft. Having one route operated by a shorthaul-configured 757 just doesn't make sense. Apart from the Club Europe seating being in no-way comparable to Club World, it really just isn't our style to operate such a service these days.

Yes, we've previously operated 757's on the North Atlantic, but never from Heathrow, only from the 'regions'. Additionally, unlike AC's A319's, our 757's do not have any personal IFE, a must-have on even the shortest longhaul sectors. Honestly, I've been wrong before, but I just don't see this happening.


User currently offlineChalliday From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2797 times:

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 12):

Did AC give a reason for stopping YYT-LHR? Were yields just too low to justify the flight, despite good pax loads?

I think there were a few reasons, from my understanding. One was the low yeilds as most pax were bound for YHZ. Another reason was pax bound for YHZ had to disembark at YYT to do customs and then re-board the aircraft and this was causing delays and creating other problems.


User currently offlineBA787 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 2596 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2693 times:

Quoting Bwaflyer (Reply 3):
BA 757s are configured as short haul aircraft with convertible Club Europe / Euro Traveller cabins. I doubt they would bother converting just one aircraft out of a relatively small fleet to operate one route. Regarding Astraeus operations to Canada (which start on Friday 19th), forward bookings have been very strong for the twice weekly LGW-YDF-YYT-LGW 737-700 flights (with strong loads originating at both ends). There's even talk about adding additional frequencies just to St Johns. After all Zoom have been operating very popular flights from all across Canada into LGW for several years

Those flights could be a nightmare with these headwinds


User currently offlineBMIFlyer From UK - England, joined Feb 2004, 8810 posts, RR: 58
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2597 times:

Quoting Challiday (Reply 14):
I think there were a few reasons, from my understanding. One was the low yeilds as most pax were bound for YHZ. Another reason was pax bound for YHZ had to disembark at YYT to do customs and then re-board the aircraft and this was causing delays and creating other problems.

You'd be surprised to learn that last time I flew from LHR to YYT on AC, the vast majority of PAX disembarked at YYT, most of them being Oil Rig workers, on route to the Atlantic Canada rigs.

I was sat next to one of the workers in the group, who had flown SIN-LHR-YYT, to "get to work".

The problem is, demand on the route fluctuates, depending on the day of the week and the season of the year.

The A319 3x weekly will be a hit I guess, but only time will tell.

Needless to say, the daily LHR - YYZ will continue, on the 767.  Smile



Lee



Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
User currently offlineYOW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2444 times:

Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 2):
I personally believe there is enough demand to warrant 3-5 days per week service to LHR. However, it has to be Heathrow.
Astreaus is planning on flying LGW-YDF-YYT-LGW in the near future, however, many people here think this is bound to fail due to LGW being the destination.

Haven't Astreaus already operated YDF-LGW weekly for the past couple of years to accomodate skiers. If London is your final destination, it doesn't really matter which airport you land at...at least not for me personally

Quoting Bwaflyer (Reply 3):
BA 757s are configured as short haul aircraft with convertible Club Europe / Euro Traveller cabins. I doubt they would bother converting just one aircraft out of a relatively small fleet to operate one route.

YYT-LHR is almost a short-haul product anyways. It's shorter than the new YYT-YYC route WS announced yesterday.

Quoting BA787 (Reply 15):
Those flights could be a nightmare with these headwinds

Why? LGW-Newfoundland isn't exactly at the 73G's range limit, even with headwinds.

It'll be interesting to see how AC's YYT-LHR A319 daytripper will do given how the outbound connections will be next to nothing.


User currently offlineBwaflyer From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 690 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2310 times:

AEU have operated charters LGW-YDF for the last couple of years on and off, ferrying Brits to the Humber Valley Resort. The service that starts tomorrow is scheduled (using our 5W airline designator) allowing Canadians to purchase tickets for the first time. LGW-YDF-LGW was operated as a normal turn around flight by the crew, a long day, but shorter than some of our LGW-Egypt or LGW-Cape Verde flights. This time, the flights route via YYT to boost the loads. It's looking more likely that during the summer LGW-YYT-LGW will be operated several times a week with the occasional routing via Deer Lake. The route is no problem for the 73G, even in our 148 seat layout (which is capacity limited to 129 to reflect the capacity of the life rafts loaded on). It's certainly a lot shorter than the 7/7:30 flights we used to operate from LGW-SSG on the 73G (now upgraded to a 757)

User currently offlineSketty222 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1778 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2275 times:

Sorry for being so dumb but where is YDF???

I was under the impression BA only had 4 or 5 757 aircraft left in the fleet?

I dont think that BA would start a route like YYT with the 757. I think of they were to start it they would wait for the loads to justify using a 767


Lee



There's flying and then there's flying
User currently offlineAC_B777 From Canada, joined Aug 2000, 809 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2237 times:

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 12):
Did AC give a reason for stopping YYT-LHR? Were yields just too low to justify the flight, despite good pax loads?

Basically, there was'nt enough demand during certain periods to justify daily service to YYT. Combine that with all pax having to deplane, clear customs, reclaim and re-check their baggage then usually having a delay on the flight due to man power problems turning an International flight to domestic in sometimes as little as an hour, and the writing was clear.
However, as I mentioned in my first post, there is still enough demand that could justify at least 3X weekly, plus the revenue in large and heavy cargo carried on these flights.

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 16):
You'd be surprised to learn that last time I flew from LHR to YYT on AC, the vast majority of PAX disembarked at YYT, most of them being Oil Rig workers, on route to the Atlantic Canada rigs.

In recent years, all pax had to deplane and clear customs in YYT due to Government rules (not AC's). This was a headache for people continuing onto YHZ, and many believe part of the reason the YYT portion was canned was to accomodate those people who were flying to YHZ.

Quoting YOW (Reply 17):
Haven't Astreaus already operated YDF-LGW weekly for the past couple of years to accomodate skiers. If London is your final destination, it doesn't really matter which airport you land at...at least not for me personally

Yes they have, but these flights as you said are mainly for skiers and tourists. As I said before, the vast majority of people who travel through London from YYT are connections to other European, Middle Eastern and Russian destinations and LHR offers the better connection options more than LGW, MAN, etc. Plus, many people are travelling on business and want a higher standard of service that Astreaus does'nt offer.



In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
User currently offlineConnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2116 times:

Quoting Sketty222 (Reply 19):
Sorry for being so dumb but where is YDF???

Deer Lake, on the west side of The Rock. Fairly close to Corner Brook on the map.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5166 posts, RR: 43
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2090 times:

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 12):
Did AC give a reason for stopping YYT-LHR? Were yields just too low to justify the flight, despite good pax loads?

The sector YYT-LHR-YYT was almost 100% LF year round. The biggest problem was that the majority of the passengers originated on the YHZ-YYT sector of the flight or continued to YHZ on the YYT-YHZ sector on the return. I recently talked to a sales manager in YYT, and he said, at best they put about 50 passengers a day out of YYT for LHR.

It is very difficult to for an "outsider" to assess passenger loads on these flights, as all passengers must deplane and re board at YYT.

Also, YYT was actually "competing" with YHZ for seats on the transatlantic sector. The result .... YYT will now have their own flight on the A319. This will show whether the route really can justify itself, and YHZ will have the benefit of a nonstop daily YHZ-LHR.

The A319s used will be specially reconfigured aircraft for the route, unlike the Caribbean A319Ms. Also, they will be the first XM configured A319s in the fleet. The first is undergoing conversion presently.

The reason for the odd timing, is due to slot allocation at LHR. If I understand correctly, reallocation of slot times is quicker if the flight is currently operating as opposed to in the planning stage. Therefore, AC is looking for better LHR timing in the future for this flight.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26815 posts, RR: 75
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2085 times:

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 16):
You'd be surprised to learn that last time I flew from LHR to YYT on AC, the vast majority of PAX disembarked at YYT, most of them being Oil Rig workers, on route to the Atlantic Canada rigs.

There are British off-shore workers everywhere. United does a lot of business carrying them on MSY-ORD/IAD-LHR.

Quoting Sketty222 (Reply 19):
I was under the impression BA only had 4 or 5 757 aircraft left in the fleet?

I believe that to be 13.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5166 posts, RR: 43
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2077 times:

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 16):
You'd be surprised to learn that last time I flew from LHR to YYT on AC, the vast majority of PAX disembarked at YYT,

They ALL have to disembark at YYT.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
25 Gr8Circle : Calgary is a much larger city (of 1 million people) and smack in the middle of booming Alberta....no basis for comparing it with St. Johns, NF.....
26 Post contains images BMIFlyer : I know What I was saying is, the vast majority of pax who disembarked, had the final destination as YYT Lee
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