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Allied Pilots Association: Outraged And Outrageous  
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17787 posts, RR: 46
Posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2194 times:

I was told this was a duplicate thread, but I can't find anything similar...not even close.

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/070117/20070117005730.html?.v=1

"Allied Pilots Association Outraged That Executive Bonuses Could Match or Exceed American Airlines' 2006 Net Profit"

""It is particularly egregious to pay large bonuses when our airline has been experiencing such serious operational problems. What we have today is a small set of underperforming managers whose personal financial recovery is out of line with American's troubled performance in the field. Aren't bonuses normally paid for a job well done?""

"Hunter cited the widely publicized incidents that occurred on Dec. 29, 2006 -- such as American Airlines Flight 1348, which sat on the tarmac in Austin, Texas for some eight hours with no food or water and overflowing toilets before the Captain elected to taxi to the terminal, despite on-duty managers' refusal to provide a gate -- "

[Edited 2007-01-17 22:40:45]


E pur si muove -Galileo
18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineOkie73 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 446 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2191 times:

Whats nuts about that? AA has survived largely because the labor groups gave back huge amounts of money. Not because of some stellar performance by the executives. I would be outraged too. Everyone had a hand in turning AA around......everyone should share in the rewards.

User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6784 posts, RR: 17
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2166 times:

But what sucks is that when executives get a bonus, they get taxed x%.. when a white or blue collar gets a bonus, they get taxed xx%.. so that is what makes it even more schatty!

But yeah, it sucks.. could an airline run without executives? Yes.
Could an airline run without Pilots? No
Could an airline run without FA? Not really
Could an airline run without ramp or gate or customer service? No

So what's the actual fat that can be cut? I am not one to say anything.. but it looks pretty clear to me...

And for anyone who says an executive is needed to run an airline, I disagree.. group of managers or supervisors could do the job at 1/3 the pay and still have a company that would be profitable and oriented towards the customer.



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17787 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2161 times:

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 1):
Whats nuts about that?

Just the general lack of professionalism the PR shows...the mud slinging, the smearing, the finger pointing...EVERYTHING is the fault of "underperforming" management. Plus for a union to say "Aren't bonuses normally paid for a job well done" is like a communist talking about increasing profits. Pay for performance flies in the face of everything a union stands for.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineJustPlaneNutz From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 546 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2138 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 2):
But yeah, it sucks.. could an airline run without executives? Yes.
Could an airline run without Pilots? No

Could a pilot make more $$$ working elsewhere? NEVER
Could a manager make more $$$ working elsewhere? USUALLY


User currently offlineAbrelosojos From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 5127 posts, RR: 55
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2133 times:

Quoting JustPlaneNutz (Reply 4):
Could a manager make more $$$ working elsewhere? USUALLY

= Not if they are incompetent.

-A.



Live, and let live.
User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3350 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2121 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 2):

But yeah, it sucks.. could an airline run without executives? Yes.

No, it couldn't. So the pilots just wake up one day and decide what airplane they want to fly between which cities and what time? The reservationists decide how many AAdvantage miles you get? Each gate agent randomly chooses what time flights close for boarding? Flight attendants decide how much meals cost and on which flights they are served? Mechanics each have their own MELs that they put into practice?

Management, as a whole, is just as necessary to the company as the flight attendant, pilot, mechanic and CSR groups.

AAndrew


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17787 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2087 times:

Quoting JustPlaneNutz (Reply 4):
Could a manager make more $$$ working elsewhere? USUALLY

Almost always. You really have to want to be in the industry to swallow the pay cut. And this is true for all those "evil" executives too.

Quoting JustPlaneNutz (Reply 4):
Could a pilot make more $$$ working elsewhere? NEVER

Particularly those pilots that fly three-five transoceanic flights a month and are done. Down on the express end of things, life is indeed tough, but APA does not support those pilots at all.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2013 times:

So technically, if they gouge out substantially more than they posted as a profit...

couldn't it almost be a loss?

Smart....very smart.

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1994 times:

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 5):
Quoting JustPlaneNutz (Reply 4):
Could a manager make more $$$ working elsewhere? USUALLY

= Not if they are incompetent.

-A.

Incompetence doesn't seem to stop them from moving onward and upward, especially in the high-tech field  Wink



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineAdh214 From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 360 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1965 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 2):
But what sucks is that when executives get a bonus, they get taxed x%.. when a white or blue collar gets a bonus, they get taxed xx%.. so that is what makes it even more schatty!

What does this mean? Each employees tax rate is determined by the amount of taxable income they have.


User currently offlineStealthpilot From India, joined May 2004, 510 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1934 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):
"Hunter cited the widely publicized incidents that occurred on Dec. 29, 2006

Peter, could you tell me more about that incident? Any links?
I guess this is what happens when you're away from anet for just a few weeks  Smile
Thanks
eP007



eP007
User currently offlineDashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1550 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1847 times:

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 6):
No, it couldn't. So the pilots just wake up one day and decide what airplane they want to fly between which cities and what time? The reservationists decide how many AAdvantage miles you get? Each gate agent randomly chooses what time flights close for boarding? Flight attendants decide how much meals cost and on which flights they are served? Mechanics each have their own MELs that they put into practice?

Management, as a whole, is just as necessary to the company as the flight attendant, pilot, mechanic and CSR groups.

After working for the airlines for a number of years, and managing the flight ops side of an air charter company, I can tell you that 9 times out of 10 management has their head up their asses.

My exposure is mainly with the operations side of the business, but if you were to let pilots, dispatchers, and flight attendants make the policies the operation runs smoother. That being said, it would take more than one opinion to make things work...

In my work experience, management is generally so far out of touch with reality it's rediculous, hence the crap decisions that are made. It is the line employees who are in the trenches that see what needs to be done to make things work, and customers happy. That's one of the many things that has made Southwest a success. They listen to their employees, unlike many legacy carriers.

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 8):
So technically, if they gouge out substantially more than they posted as a profit...

couldn't it almost be a loss?

Smart....very smart.

Negotiating time at AA. One of the many tricks used by management to show the labor groups that the company cannot afford to compensate more. Problem is, we're not stupid.....

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
Just the general lack of professionalism the PR shows...the mud slinging, the smearing, the finger pointing...EVERYTHING is the fault of "underperforming" management. Plus for a union to say "Aren't bonuses normally paid for a job well done" is like a communist talking about increasing profits. Pay for performance flies in the face of everything a union stands for.

The way legacy carriers are run, everything IS the fault of an underperforming management. What do you suggest we blame bankruptcies on? Labor compensation is based on negotiations with.... Airline management. If a company can't afford to pay what it negotiated, they shouldn't have signed that agreement.

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 1):
Whats nuts about that? AA has survived largely because the labor groups gave back huge amounts of money. Not because of some stellar performance by the executives. I would be outraged too. Everyone had a hand in turning AA around......everyone should share in the rewards.

Agreed. Problem is, that theory goes against the new American way.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
Particularly those pilots that fly three-five transoceanic flights a month and are done. Down on the express end of things, life is indeed tough, but APA does not support those pilots at all.

APA does not represent Eagle pilots. They are an ALPA carrier. Would be a good thing for airline pilots across the country if they were an ALPA carrier again.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17787 posts, RR: 46
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1820 times:

Quoting Stealthpilot (Reply 11):
Peter, could you tell me more about that incident? Any links?

I was wondering that myself...I'm guessing we're missing the other 75% of the story  Silly.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineFXRA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 708 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1790 times:

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 12):
My exposure is mainly with the operations side of the business, but if you were to let pilots, dispatchers, and flight attendants make the policies the operation runs smoother. That being said, it would take more than one opinion to make things work...

In my work experience, management is generally so far out of touch with reality it's rediculous, hence the crap decisions that are made. It is the line employees who are in the trenches that see what needs to be done to make things work, and customers happy. That's one of the many things that has made Southwest a success. They listen to their employees, unlike many legacy carriers.

While I do agree that executives (for the most part) seem to be out of touch with the rank and file, and (for the most part) way overcompensated for their jobs, I do not agree that you could have the operations types just running things by committee. Some one has to have a final say and a final responsibility. Pilots are trained to fly planes, and on the average.. they don't make good administrators. Same with Dispatchers, and Flight attendants. I think it's comparable to having a pilot do a dispatchers job or a flight attendant flying the plane. They don't have the training and qualifications. And I think you would find the policies each group comes up with would be very self serving for that group.

So, does AA need executive management? The answer is yes. Even your example of Southwest has an executive management structure, their success lies in the philosophy of that organization. What you imply AA is lacking is such a philosophy. (And i would agree as an outside observer, but I don't have any real personal experience to base that on).

Unfortunately I don't think this problem is limited to the airlines. Ask anyone at MCI or Enron. What baffles me is how after bankrupting a corporation, some one will hire you for the same job?? Over and over... i don't get it.



Visualize Whirled Peas
User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1749 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 9):
Incompetence doesn't seem to stop them from moving onward and upward, especially in the high-tech field

Didn't stop Fred Reid, Frank Lorenzo, et al. You can always pull a Leo Mullin and be randomly brought into the industry, only to suck at everything you do.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 12):
Negotiating time at AA. One of the many tricks used by management to show the labor groups that the company cannot afford to compensate more. Problem is, we're not stupid.....

But they can always add more bonuses. I'm glad they didn't get the China flight, APA stuck to their guns on it and good for them.

Quoting FXRA (Reply 14):
What baffles me is how after bankrupting a corporation, some one will hire you for the same job?? Over and over... i don't get it.

Quote of the year bro. I can think of many individuals who need to be banned from the airline industry completely. Alot of folks at Eastern, Pan Am, NW, DL, etc.

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineDashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1550 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1714 times:

Quoting FXRA (Reply 14):
. Some one has to have a final say and a final responsibility. Pilots are trained to fly planes, and on the average.. they don't make good administrators. Same with Dispatchers, and Flight attendants.

Administrative duties, and final say and responsibility is what happens in every cockpit, every cabin, and every dispatch center for and on every flight.

We see just about every aspect of the operations, with the exception of finance. We see it's strong points and weaknesses. I won't claim that flight crew have all the answers, but we have the best view of what's happening. Most of the time, we're ignored when we bring things up.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17787 posts, RR: 46
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1595 times:

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 12):
Labor compensation is based on negotiations with.... Airline management

NEGOTIATION? What happens every time an airline tries to pay their pilots market wages?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1552 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 2):
could an airline run without executives? Yes.

OK, I really want the pilots to go out and justify their six-figure salaries -- even when people are paying less and less for airfare and fuel prices are still abnormally high -- by convincing banks and other institutional investors to put money into the airline; to negotiate contracts with reservations systems, caterers, airport leasing entities, and other relationship partners; to ensure that all employees' benefits and payroll are properly administered; to ensure that the airline does not default on its obligations to its lenders; to provide information to the airline's shareholders, who have a right to such information; and to do pretty much everything for the airline except fly, clean, board, prepare, and unload the planes.

I know the pilots have given back quite a bit, but they still have a pretty sweet deal given the nature of the business. Their skill set is a narrow one, whereas the executives' are much broader-based -- Don Carty, for example, has the financial knowledge and wherewithall to work for AA or for Dell Computer. That justifies a higher salary and benefit package to the execs, because their is much more risk of them jumping ship for a better offer. Pilots are much more fungible, it's just the nature of the beast.



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
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