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Aeroflot Fleet Update  
User currently offlineEGBJ From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 498 posts, RR: 4
Posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9113 times:

Hey everyone,

I remember reading a few years ago that Aeroflot planned to retire all Russian types by 2005, however here we are in 2007 and the Tu 134/154's remain, as well as the IL's. Whats more, they have been painted in the new colour scheme so it would seem they feature in the future plans of this airline.

My question is why do they remain when there are much more efficient crafts available?? Why were they not retired in 2005 as previously planned??

Also, whats the latest on the regional jet order. I heard they may consider the E170/190 but of course the RRJ is a big option for them also.

Thanks for any info.
Rich

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 8923 times:

I thought they ordered the Sukhoi Superjet (RRJ)? They also have six IL-96 on order I believe.

User currently offlineUzzzer From Ukraine, joined Dec 2006, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8698 times:

Quoting EGBJ (Thread starter):
why do they remain when there are much more efficient crafts available?

Efficiency is only one of the many criteria. Service and spare parts price and availability across Russia, financial status of the airlines (some are hardly alive, no bank would issue them a loan, so they use what they have), the availability of the particular types of A or B (like recently many airlines were stalled, searching for 763 to lease), the business model (if there is access to cheap fuel, then the fuel consumption is not that pressing anymore), certifications of particular planes for particular airfields etc.

In the case of Aeroflot, they are steadily retiring the Soviet fleet. Tupolevs 154/134 fly only locally, CIS and charters. Partially, because they are banned from the EU (noise restrictions).

Aeroflot is well aware of the need for a change. Local customers are not fond of Soviet equipment. I've flown KBP-FRU (Bishkek, Kyrgyzstan) a few times, and I refused to fly Aeroflot, since they were using 154/154, and took Turkish instead 738/310. Metal and maintenance quality were decisive factors for me.

Quoting EGBJ (Thread starter):
I heard they may consider the E170/190 but of course the RRJ is a big option for them also.

RRJ became a big political thing in Russia. Aeroflot has orders for RRJ, though the future of the aircraft is dimmed. Basically, the Russian gov't has been pushing the Russian airlines to go RRJ. Some even had previous orders for competing Russian Tupolev-334 and Ukrainian/Russian Antonov-148, but were forced to go RRJ.

It will be interesting how the RRJ will develop, since it is still at least two years away from serial production, while An-148 will be available for the customers already in a few months from now.

I think E170/190 have little chance in this Post-Soviet battle. Hardly would anyone buy Embraer, some companies might lease them.


User currently offlineEGBJ From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 498 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8660 times:

Thanks Uzzzer for your detailed reply  Smile

One question on the Tu154's though. I hear they are banned from the EU due to noise and emissions regulations and yet I frequently see pictures of them in the database at German airports such as Hamburg.

Am I right in thinking Aeroflot pay more in landing fees to use these crafts at EU airports or is there a limit set on movements that they cannot exceed, say on an annual basis.

Thanks,
Rich


User currently offlineUzzzer From Ukraine, joined Dec 2006, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8627 times:

Quoting EGBJ (Reply 3):
I hear they are banned from the EU due to noise and emissions regulations and yet I frequently see pictures of them in the database at German airports such as Hamburg.

My guess - most of these are charters


User currently offlineSW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6371 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8598 times:

Quoting EGBJ (Reply 3):
One question on the Tu154's though. I hear they are banned from the EU due to noise and emissions regulations and yet I frequently see pictures of them in the database at German airports such as Hamburg.

I saw a TU-154 at HAM last January...I was pretty surprised, it was a neat thing to see from the observation deck.


User currently offlineAeroflot777 From Russia, joined Mar 2004, 3015 posts, RR: 26
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 8454 times:

The TU-154 is not banned in all EU airports. The TU-154 still used on many flights into Europe. In fact, in about 2 weeks, Aeroflot is starting a new route. Sochi-Frankfurt-Sochi, it will be a regular service and will be carried out on the TU-154.

As Uzzzer mentioned, the aircraft are slowly being taken away from the fleet. However since TU 154/134 are still an essential part of SU's operations, they can't just simply get rid of them.

SU has 6 IL-96's and about 30 RRJs on order. Even though the RRJ order was somewhat pressured from the government's side, it is still capable of filling in the fleets gaps extremely well, and should be beneficial for SU's operations.

As for future plans... Aeroflot, as time comes and government problems are settled, is expected to order around 50 Boeing 787/Airbus 350. Meanwhile though, while the decision is carrier out by government officials, Aeroflot was also eyeing a few Airbus 340s to fill in some needs. But because of the cost of training and certifying cabin crew on new type, I'm not quite sure this will go through. Also they will likely face the same problems they had with the 777s. Simply not economical to fly a mere few aircraft of the same type.

Aeroflot is going through some stressful times at the moment, SVO 3 is scheduled to open in September, and since it's Aeroflot's terminal, they are working to make everything right. Many changes are happening, and it should be very exciting what happens to SU within the next year.



Aeroflot777


User currently offlineUzzzer From Ukraine, joined Dec 2006, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8333 times:

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 6):
The TU-154 is not banned in all EU airports. The TU-154 still used on many flights into Europe. In fact, in about 2 weeks, Aeroflot is starting a new route. Sochi-Frankfurt-Sochi, it will be a regular service and will be carried out on the TU-154.

Thanks for correction. What kind of limits are there as to Tupolev metal in EU?


User currently offlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2305 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8246 times:

Quoting EGBJ (Thread starter):
I remember reading a few years ago that Aeroflot planned to retire all Russian types by 2005,

I cannot recall having read that. Where did you see it?

Quoting EGBJ (Thread starter):
My question is why do they remain when there are much more efficient crafts available??

I believe that the most important factor is the Russian import tax for foreign airplanes. Aeroflot would pay through their nose if they would all of a sudden replace all their Russian airplanes with foreign ones.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 1):
They also have six IL-96 on order I believe.

They do, but they don't really want them. But the government wants them to buy them, and the factory has problems with producing them because they are short of cash. So the whole Il-96 order is a big question mark.

Quoting Uzzzer (Reply 2):
Partially, because they are banned from the EU (noise restrictions).

That's a surprise to me as I work at an EU airport (ARN) where we sometimes see a Tu-154 from Pulkovo/Rossiya.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 6):
SVO 3 is scheduled to open in September,

Great! Do you know which airlines will move there apart from SU? Is this opening date set in stone?

Quoting Uzzzer (Reply 7):
What kind of limits are there as to Tupolev metal in EU?

Chapter III noise regulations. It basically means that all Tu-204/214 can fly into the EU, and the newer Tu-154s. The older Tu-154s and the Tu-134 must either be reengined or fitted with a hush-kit (I can't really remember which), but doing this is hideously expensive, so I don't believe any airline has actually done it.



Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently offlineAeroflot777 From Russia, joined Mar 2004, 3015 posts, RR: 26
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8243 times:

Quoting Uzzzer (Reply 7):
Thanks for correction. What kind of limits are there as to Tupolev metal in EU?

To tell you the truth, I have no details. I know that the IL-86 was way to loud and some airports banned those machines. However the TU-154 isn't nealry as bad. Occasionally Aeroflot even uses them as substitutions to other countries as well, not just Germany.

But as for actual regulations... I really don't know, izvini.

Aeroflot777


User currently offlineAeroflot777 From Russia, joined Mar 2004, 3015 posts, RR: 26
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8187 times:

Quoting RedChili (Reply 8):
Great! Do you know which airlines will move there apart from SU? Is this opening date set in stone?

The opening date should be on schedule. Here is a pic taken by fellow a.netter FYODOR:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Fyodor Borisov - Russian AviaPhoto Team



As you can see the terminal structure was already almost completed and the pic was taken way back in June.

Aeroflot needs the terminal open as soon as possible, plus the train link to city centre. So a delay in opening will only hurt SU.

As for airlines.... SkyTeam should have priority since the terminal is owned mostly by Aeroflot. But SVO1 & 2 are going to go through some changes as well, so things might be a little different for a while.

After talking to an Aeroflot representative last summer, I found out some interesting info.

SVO1 is getting a new terminal, with the existing one being given away to general aviation (i.e. business jets and operations).

SVO2 is going to get a MAJOR overhaul after SVO3's completion. The comfort and facilities will be drastically improved for pax, and number of passengers allowed to go through terminal annually will be increased. SVO2 will be expanded and equipped with more gates. Not to be an inconvenience, some flights that would usually operate into SVO2 will be routed to SVO3 while SVO2 is upgraded. SVO3 is capable of handling all the extra traffic so it won't be a nuisance.

Ultimately, Sheremetyevo is going through a major change. And it should be interesting how everything plays out.

Aeroflot777


User currently offlinePlanenutzTB From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 256 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8011 times:

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 10):
As you can see the terminal structure was already almost completed and the pic was taken way back in June.

Aeroflot needs the terminal open as soon as possible, plus the train link to city centre. So a delay in opening will only hurt SU.

Are there any plans to improve the transportation between terminals with SVO3 coming online? On my last trip in/out of SVO2, the transportation between SVO1 and SVO2 was a nightmare ride on an over crowded shuttle bus with not enough space for luggage.



I am extraordinarily patient, provided I get my own way in the end.
User currently offlineAA777223 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1259 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7933 times:

My question is, who buys these Russian planes? I mean, there are a handful of operators, who own Russian aircraft, but the numbers are not near as high, so as to amortize the fixed development costs. Boeing and Airbus each sell 750-1000 aircraft a year. Tupolev, Antonov, and Ilyushin have maybe(?) sold a 1,000 each in their existence. While I realize these aircraft are less advanced than their western counterparts, there is no doubt there is still a significant design investment. Sooo.... How do they do it? How can they afford to do it? How can the engine manufacturers design powerplants for such a limited number of aircraft? Any info is appreciated.


Sic 'em bears
User currently offlineSeabiscuit From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 40 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7874 times:

Any agreement with Aeroflot/Russia is complicated to say the least. Too many barriers to put an exact date for fleet renewal at this time.


Seabiscuit
User currently offlineAeroflot777 From Russia, joined Mar 2004, 3015 posts, RR: 26
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7829 times:

Quoting PlanenutzTB (Reply 11):
Are there any plans to improve the transportation between terminals with SVO3 coming online? On my last trip in/out of SVO2, the transportation between SVO1 and SVO2 was a nightmare ride on an over crowded shuttle bus with not enough space for luggage.

I really have no clue. I would guess that there should be some new form of transport as the construction continues. However that's not a given.

That's why people usually refer to SVO1 and SVO2 as two separate airports connected by a common runway.

Aeroflot777


User currently offlineLevg79 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 995 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days ago) and read 7408 times:

Quoting RedChili (Reply 8):
I believe that the most important factor is the Russian import tax for foreign airplanes. Aeroflot would pay through their nose if they would all of a sudden replace all their Russian airplanes with foreign ones.

If I remember correctly, all Russian airlines including SU cannot register foreign made airplanes in Russia. That also explains why SU Boeing and Airbus fleets are registered in Bermuda.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 12):
How can the engine manufacturers design powerplants for such a limited number of aircraft? Any info is appreciated.

During the existence of the Soviet Union, every enterprise was owned by the government, including Tupolev, Antonov, Ilyushin, and Kuznetsov. That's why there were no issues in designing new engines. Kuznetsov was designing engines for Tupolev aircraft and both were owned by the Soviet government. So as you see, one could not exist without the other. In order to understand this you one would need to look beyond all of the economic theories found in capitalist economies.

Leo.



A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
User currently offlineAA777223 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1259 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6697 times:

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 15):
During the existence of the Soviet Union, every enterprise was owned by the government, including Tupolev, Antonov, Ilyushin, and Kuznetsov. That's why there were no issues in designing new engines. Kuznetsov was designing engines for Tupolev aircraft and both were owned by the Soviet government. So as you see, one could not exist without the other. In order to understand this you one would need to look beyond all of the economic theories found in capitalist economies.

I am able to see beyond the realm of capitalism, and your assertions are correct, until the fall of communism. My questions primarily concerned the existence of said companies in the face of an emerging free market. Why did the Russian government feel it necessary to have 3 aircraft manufacturers in the first place. How have they not had to consolidate in the face of greater competition, and new found external sources, a la Airbus and Boeing? We saw the removal or overtaking of Lockheed, MD, Northrup Grumman, etc. in the American commercial environment.



Sic 'em bears
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6425 times:

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 6):
The TU-154 is not banned in all EU airports.

From what I remember, the TU-154B2 is banned in Europe, but not the TU-154M, which is what almost all TU-154 operators use, am I correct with that assumption?


User currently offlineHjulicher From Liechtenstein, joined Feb 2005, 890 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6006 times:

TU-154M is not banned in the EU, you can see this type on smaller, thinner routes. Lot's of charter airlines use this craft to and from BCN to Russia. Also, eastern Europe sees a lot of 154's.

Aeroflot is really growing, and with it's admission into SKYTEAM they have still a lot to do in order to really collaborate with the other Skyteam members... however, service levels on board are equal to the standards set by skyteam.

SVO-3, which will open in the later part of this year, will house SU, and all SKYTEAM partners.... here's a rudimentary site, www.svo3.ru but it you look closely there is one AF B747 parked by the terminal..

For the time being SVO2 and SVO3 are the same airport, just separate terminals, while SVO1 will be renovated/closed for passenger services.... When the new terminal opens, SVO2 will undergo renovations which will cost more than the construction of SVO3 itself. The two terminals will then be connected adding gates. There will probably me some sort of monorail built as well.

Also, with the opening of SVO-3 will be a rail link to Savelovskii Railway Station, which should really help alleviate traffic problems. The commute from Downtown Moscow will take only 30 minutes.

When SVO3 opens, SU will have online check-in and e-check in computer displays. You'll see a much improved airline with it's real own terminal, and much easier connections as domestic SU flights will leave from SVO3 as well.

A lot is changing for SU, and you can tell by the video that (Aeroflot777) posted.

The RRJ is set to be certified this year into next, so deliveries will begin next year. The RRJ is a good plane, and will even cater to airlines outside of the CIS. So, even though there is goverment pressure to buy the plane, the craft itself isn't outdated or inferior to the offerings of Bombardier and Embraer. It actually caters better to Russian airlines as it is filling sort of the same niche as the B787, but on a smaller scale. More point-point thinner routes (across the CIS and smaller cities of Europe)

The RRJ will probably open up city pairs like (MOW-SXB) and (MOW-Venice)
and many city pairs in Russia.



LH 442
User currently offlineUzzzer From Ukraine, joined Dec 2006, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5922 times:

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 12):
While I realize these aircraft are less advanced than their western counterparts, there is no doubt there is still a significant design investment. Sooo.... How do they do it? How can they afford to do it? How can the engine manufacturers design powerplants for such a limited number of aircraft?

First, they are less advanced in some areas, more advanced in the other. 2 biggest cargo planes in a world Antonov-225 and Antonov-124 have no worldwide competition, but have worldwide demand. The frames are great. The international manufacturers are years behind in attempt to develop an Antonov-70 like. Politics and trade unions were the reasons why this plane didn't become first "western" Antonov, highly demanded by NATO members mobile military forces.

Engines started being a problem, once oil became expensive. My guess is that there will be more cooperation with the international companies here, as well as in avionics. Design, frames and other hardware stay highly competitive.

Low sales are partially due to marketing, brand recognition and worldwide service [un]availability. I'd expect the situation to change over the next years.


User currently offlineTommyBP251b From Germany, joined Apr 2006, 460 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5294 times:

Quoting Uzzzer (Reply 7):
What kind of limits are there as to Tupolev metal in EU?



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 17):

Thats what I red too. Only TU-154M is allowed to fly to EU.



Tom from Cologne
User currently offlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2305 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5152 times:

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 12):
Tupolev, Antonov, and Ilyushin have maybe(?) sold a 1,000 each in their existence.

They sold thousands and thousands of airplanes.

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 15):
If I remember correctly, all Russian airlines including SU cannot register foreign made airplanes in Russia. That also explains why SU Boeing and Airbus fleets are registered in Bermuda.

There are pictures on a.net of Russian registered foreign-made airplanes.The SU planes are owned by a leasing company which registers them in Bermuda.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 16):
Why did the Russian government feel it necessary to have 3 aircraft manufacturers in the first place.

They are deisgn bureaus, not manufacturers. Tupolev, Ilyushin and Yakolev design airplanes that are later manufactured all over Russia. The Antonov 124, which is actually a Ukrainian design, is manufactures in Ulyanovsk, the birth city of Lenin, in Russia.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 17):
From what I remember, the TU-154B2 is banned in Europe, but not the TU-154M, which is what almost all TU-154 operators use, am I correct with that assumption?

Correct.



Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently offlineWorkhorse From France, joined Jul 2005, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5029 times:

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 15):
If I remember correctly, all Russian airlines including SU cannot register foreign made airplanes in Russia. That also explains why SU Boeing and Airbus fleets are registered in Bermuda.

Taxes are not the main reason for registering aircraft in Bermuda, Ireland etc -- you have to pay them anyway (or not, if you've got tax exemptions, like SU or UN).

AFAIK, the main reason is the fact that when your plane is registered in Russia, there is no FAA or JAA garantee on the maintenance, and Russian civil aviation authorities do not have the same established maintenance procedures for Western types.

Registering your plane in Bermuda makes it much easier to sell the plane after if you own it, or makes the lessor sleep much better if the plane is leased.

[Edited 2007-01-22 11:25:23]

User currently offlineEGBJ From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 498 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4778 times:

Quoting RedChili (Reply 8):
I cannot recall having read that. Where did you see it?

There was an article in Airliner World back in '03 I believe.

Rich


User currently offlineStarGoldLHR From Heard and McDonald Islands, joined Feb 2004, 1529 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4550 times:

I saw a TU154 in AMS last year, and in ZRH last August, so there not "that" banned


So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
25 EnviroTO : I really hope the get more IL-96s and TU-204s. I'm hoping that the Rusian aviation industry can survive.
26 OlegShv : As it was said before, they sold thousands of passenger frames during the Soviet era. Besides, I don't think that I'm going to be wrong if I say that
27 Post contains images Scbriml : Only in the last two, exceptional years. Normally numbers would be much lower. Hmmm. Tu-134 - over 850 built Tu-154 - 935 Il-18 - 719 Il-76 - around
28 Post contains links and images LTU932 : Yes, they can. View Large View MediumPhoto © Snorre - VAPThe problem is that Russian import taxes are too expensive, which is why most Western a
29 AA777223 : Well... where are they all? I only know of a few Russian carriers, Cubana, and very few others who fly these a/c. The worlds largest airlines own 400
30 Aeroflot777 : Russia is a very large country, with an extremely huge amount of airports and aircraft....... They operate mostly domestically thus you do not see th
31 RedChili : Please, read the whole thread before posting, such as reply 22: I'll give you three alternatives. Can you guess the correct answer? A. France. B. Sin
32 Post contains images Levg79 : Another option would be that the aircraft have been retired from service. There were almost 2,000 Boeing 727s manufactured and yet we do not see that
33 Aeroflot777 : Well put. I was going to say that was well. Aeroflot777
34 Lufthansa : You're also forgetting that Aeroflot WAS THE LARGEST airline in the world for a very very long time. Nothing even came close to the size of it. Unite
35 TrijetsRMissed : While not part of the pax fleet, I am curious if anyone knows what the future holds for the 4 DC-10-40Fs. Will these be flying freight in Russia for s
36 Aeroflot777 : I have read that as part of it's fleet renewal, Aeroflot is planning to swap them for MD-11 freighters. Aeroflot777
37 RedChili : Yes, that is true of course. But even if they've been taken out of service, they're still parked at airports in the CIS. I've seen lots of older Tupo
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