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Japan/Canada Bilateral Talk: 23/24JAN07  
User currently offlineJimyvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3130 times:

Japan and Canada will hold bilateral agreement talk on 23JAN07 and 24JAN07 in Ottawa.

Japan is mainly asking for additional codeshare flights via US to Canada and via Canada to other countries.

Canada will seek additional cargo flight to Narita.

63 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2954 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3060 times:

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
Japan and Canada will hold bilateral agreement talk on 23JAN07 and 24JAN07 in Ottawa.

Japan is mainly asking for additional codeshare flights via US to Canada and via Canada to other countries.

Probably get.

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
Canada will seek additional cargo flight to Narita.

NRT slots are probably impossible but how about KIX or NGO.


User currently offlineDrgmobile From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 637 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2989 times:

Japan and Canada will hold bilateral agreement talk on 23JAN07 and 24JAN07 in Ottawa.

Japan is mainly asking for additional codeshare flights via US to Canada and via Canada to other countries.

Canada will seek additional cargo flight to Narita.


That's it? We need more from this. Canadian carriers are taking advantage of their maximum rights and Japan is Canada's number two source of overseas (non-U.S.) tourists.


User currently offlineJimyvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2946 times:

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 2):
That's it? We need more from this. Canadian carriers are taking advantage of their maximum rights and Japan is Canada's number two source of overseas (non-U.S.) tourists.

That's so far what the news are saying in Japan

Air Canada is sending their new largest plane - 777-300ER - to Tokyo, so they don't need to request for more on the passenger side


User currently offlineDrgmobile From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 637 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2945 times:

That's so far what the news are saying in Japan

Air Canada is sending their new largest plane - 777-300ER - to Tokyo, so they don't need to request for more on the passenger side


There's huge tourism growth potential. I guess it's not in Transat's radar screen, which is unfortunate, but they could do the same as they are with the UK and France. Some half a million Japanese travel through Calgary alone and there is no nonstop service.


User currently offlineJimyvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2917 times:

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 4):
Some half a million Japanese travel through Calgary alone and there is no nonstop service.

They can pretty much be handled through charter flights, which ANA runs it in Summer.


User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2907 times:

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 4):

There's huge tourism growth potential. I guess it's not in Transat's radar screen, which is unfortunate, but they could do the same as they are with the UK and France. Some half a million Japanese travel through Calgary alone and there is no nonstop service.

You need the right fleet to fly the Pacific and Transat doesn't have it. Besides with its tour operator and travel agency businesses in Europe, why would it want to tackle Asia inbound? The problem with more Japan services in access to NRT. One could envision AC offering a Calgary-Tokyo flight, especially with a 787, but those slots are harder to come by than just about anything else in the industry worldwide. Right now, growth will come from AC moving both the YYZ and YVR flights to 777-300ERs which is another 150 passengers a day, or 55,000 passengers a year. When you consider the total current Japanese visits to Canada, that's about a 10% increase in inbound tourism right there. In the summer of 08, it might move a 777-300ER onto YVR-KIX for a further increase.

[Edited 2007-01-22 20:33:47]

User currently offlineNaritaflyer From Japan, joined Apr 2006, 549 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2880 times:

YYC is not very attractive because although many Japanese visit Banff it's part of a longer tour of Canada, not a destination in itself. A typical tour would be something like arrival in Vancouver, then a domestic flight to Calgary/Banff, then Toronto for Niagara Fallas and then back to Japan. For that reason a flight to YYC makes no sense. I am aware that Canadian used to fly to YYC twice a week but the benefits of that flight are dubious.

I could see AC flying to NGO and FUK in addition to its existing flights at KIX and NRT.

Japanese travellers rarely stay at one location for a whole week and rarely take a trip that is longer than one week. So you have to fit a lot of sights in that one week period especially a destination that is as far as Canada.


User currently offlineJimyvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2869 times:

Quoting Sebring (Reply 6):
it might move a 777-300ER onto YVR-KIX for a further increase

Doesn't sounds right if they abandon the 2nd daily 767 flight this year. But they'll move the daily 763 to 343 from 02AUG07 to 29SEP07, however.


User currently offlineCayMan From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 905 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2849 times:

Quoting Sebring (Reply 6):
Right now, growth will come from AC moving both the YYZ and YVR flights to 777-300ERs which is another 150 passengers a day

Is it pretty much certain than the 773s will be placed on the YYz NRT route? That route is/will remain daily I assume. Also, isn't that route a good connection for AC with its YYZ GRU route?


User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2843 times:

Quoting CayMan (Reply 9):

Is it pretty much certain than the 773s will be placed on the YYz NRT route? That route is/will remain daily I assume. Also, isn't that route a good connection for AC with its YYZ GRU route?

Yes, yes and yes.


User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2841 times:

And we are little over a week away from the consolidation of AC operations at the expanded T1 with its new in-transit capability.

User currently offlineWolsingerjet From Canada, joined Apr 2006, 348 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2776 times:

YYC-NRT has been tried and it was pulled as a result of ''low yield'',very full flight,but tourist's dont produce the bucks that airlines are looking for...We will likely continue to see charters by Japanese tour groups.ANA and JAL both flew charters to YYC(ANA,JAL) and YEG(ANA) in 2006.


Guess what???I dont like you either...
User currently offlineJamincan From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2756 times:

Quoting Sebring (Reply 11):
And we are little over a week away from the consolidation of AC operations at the expanded T1 with its new in-transit capability.

When I was speaking with an airport representative at the open house, she said that they are still negotiating the transit lounge with the government. Apparently the one Vancouver has is still a pilot project. In any case, hopefully the gov't decides quickly.


User currently offlineYVRSR From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2725 times:

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 4):
Some half a million Japanese travel through Calgary alone and there is no nonstop service.

Is this per year or decade? YYC may indeed deserve nonstop service, but the 500K Japanese through Calgary per year does not seem plausible. It corresponds to nearly 1400 per day = roughly 5 A340s full of people (280 per plane). Do you have source?


User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2660 times:

Quoting Jamincan (Reply 13):

When I was speaking with an airport representative at the open house, she said that they are still negotiating the transit lounge with the government. Apparently the one Vancouver has is still a pilot project. In any case, hopefully the gov't decides quickly.

This would not seem to be the case.

See the following for procedures from Jan 30 onward.

No need to clear Canadian customs for either International to International or International to US.

http://www.aircanada.com/en/travelinfo/airport/toronto.html


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2608 times:

Sources indicated that JAL plans to re-route its NRT-JFK-GRU flight via Canada.

Rgs,


User currently offlineJayce From Canada, joined Nov 1999, 520 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2597 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 16):
Sources indicated that JAL plans to re-route its NRT-JFK-GRU flight via Canada.

That would either be via YVR as they do with MEX or starting up a NRT-YYZ-GRU. Either way, it will be interesting.



"Trying is the first step towards failure" -Homer Simpson
User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2595 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 16):
Sources indicated that JAL plans to re-route its NRT-JFK-GRU flight via Canada.



Quoting Sebring (Reply 15):
No need to clear Canadian customs for either International to International or International to US.

And I assume no need to clear Canadian customs for passengers in transit.


User currently offlineWolsingerjet From Canada, joined Apr 2006, 348 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2592 times:

My guess would be a NRT-YYZ-GRU route,although YVR is very plausible on this one aswell...JL already has the NRT-YVR-MEX route.


Guess what???I dont like you either...
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2587 times:

Quoting Naritaflyer (Reply 7):
I could see AC flying to NGO and FUK in addition to its existing flights at KIX and NRT.

NGO was dropped two years ago. If it comes back, it will be with a 787-8.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2579 times:

Quoting Wolsingerjet (Reply 19):
My guess would be a NRT-YYZ-GRU route,although YVR is very plausible on this one aswell...JL already has the NRT-YVR-MEX route.

Would suspect YYZ - more high yield traffic.

I checked on great circle mapper and NRT-GRU via YYZ is the same distance as via NYC, 18526kms (and only 5kms longer than direct, if it was possible). Via YVR is an extra 76kms.


User currently offlineDYK From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 407 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2568 times:

Quoting ANother (Reply 21):
Would suspect YYZ - more high yield traffic.

Not so sure the yield would be much higher than YVR, assuming most passengers would have originated in either Japan or Brazil. Also JAL has been reluctant to enter new markets past few years and i dont think NRT-YYZ is lucrative?
My guess if was to happen it would be via YVR.



AC,CP,PW,WD,ND,UA,AA,NW,CO,DL,WA,AS,QX,PR,SQ,AI,TG,MH,JL,9W,IC,UL,PG,BW,NZ,QF,DJ,BA,LH,KL,OA,OS,ME,RJ,HA,AQ
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2563 times:

Quoting ANother (Reply 21):
Not so sure the yield would be much higher than YVR, assuming most passengers would have originated in either Japan or Brazil. Also JAL has been reluctant to enter new markets past few years and i dont think NRT-YYZ is lucrative?
My guess if was to happen it would be via YVR.



Quoting ANother (Reply 21):
I checked on great circle mapper and NRT-GRU via YYZ is the same distance as via NYC, 18526kms (and only 5kms longer than direct, if it was possible). Via YVR is an extra 76kms.



Quoting Wolsingerjet (Reply 19):
My guess would be a NRT-YYZ-GRU route,although YVR is very plausible on this one aswell...JL already has the NRT-YVR-MEX route.

Very good points. The fact is that JAL's GRU-JFK route although doing well is suffering from fierce competition: 3 airlines operate 4 daily JFK-GRU (TAM, AA and DL), in addition to CO daily EWR-GRU. JAL has a good product but only operates 3 x week, so yields are under pressure.

In makes sense, therefore, to open up NRT-YYZ/YVR-GRU instead of the traditional via JFK route. Canada-Brazil route is currently a monopoly of AC YYZ-GRU daily, which is achieving excellent loads and yields, so JAL would certainly carve out an interesting market niche here.

Rgs,


User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2553 times:

Maybe JL could downgrade NRT-JFK-GRU to a 773ER or even smaller and then add NRT-YYZ-GRU with a 773ER. Use the planes with the new F, C and Y and this might be even more an appeal.

Side note,
I was looking up NGO-YUL for an exchange program I work on. Man....PRICEY!!!! Only choices are NGO-SFO-YUL (UA) or NGO-DTW-YUL (NW). Used to be able to fly NGO-YVR-YUL and it underpriced the US carriers. Hope AC comes back.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
25 Hardiwv : Since September 2006 JAL operates the refitted new cabins on its 3 x week GRU-JFK-NRT B747. Rgs,
26 Naritaflyer : NRT-YYZ-GRU makes more sense than from YVR because if JAL gets Fifth Freedom from YYZ at leas it can tap into the YYZ-GRU market whereas from YVR that
27 Jamincan : " target=_blank>http://www.aircanada.com/en/travelin....html What are Customs B? It doesn't sound like a typical customs hall based on the description
28 DYK : What makes you say this? Do you have stats? I think this can be argued, obviously yvr not as large as the YYZ market but dont you think JAL would wan
29 CayMan : I think this is in reference to the need to obtain a transit visa. I remember reading that AC (and perhaps others airlines) were trying to establish
30 PanAmOldDC8 : I was under the impression that Pearson was operated by an independant group and not the Government, I speak under correction. Thought it was run by
31 AirbusfanYYZ : Int'l to Int'l pax connecting through YYZ T1 (not USA) follow these steps; Upon deplaning, pax go through a security screening a la LHR, DXB etc. befo
32 Naritaflyer : That's okay if you don't agree. Let me try to shed some light. JAL can already fill its planes from NRT-YVR and I would suspect unless they go double
33 Jayce : I disagree. There is a growing South American population in YVR as well as a large number of students travelling here to speak English. However, we k
34 Naritaflyer : Take the population of greater Vancouver. Deduct the number of local people. Less people of Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese, Thai, Philippines,
35 ANother : Much of CP's traffic was 6th freedom from TYO and HKG. Very little local traffic. In the days the flight operated YVR-MEX-ACA-LIM-SCL-BUE (with 5ths
36 Naritaflyer : Canadian Airlines never did Lima from YVR. All it's non-Asian flights including Sao Paulo, Lima and Mexico were from Toronto.
37 Jimyvr : That was YVR-MEX-LIM-SCL. No it wouldn't work anyways
38 Naritaflyer : Sorry to be persistent on this one but it was never YVR-MEX it was YYZ-MEX, I am staring at the data in my ICAO Traffic by Flight Stages book.
39 YVR1968 : CP used to fly twice weekly YVR-LIM-SCL-EZE with a DC8-60 and then a DC10... that was way back in the 70s and 80s
40 Wolsingerjet : Agreed,the south american market through YVR is growing.MX has its flights and JL offers MEX from YVR.Dont forget that a long time back Viasa even ha
41 ANother : Some quotes from Peter Pigott's 'Wing Walkers - the rise and fall of Canada's other airline'. P. 200 ... when Ottawa granded CPA permission to fly fr
42 Drgmobile : I was under the impression that Pearson was operated by an independant group and not the Government, I speak under correction. Thought it was run by t
43 Jayce : So it's agreed, there once was a service from YVR to South America. You're forgetting that O&D traffic alone is not the basis that airlines use to com
44 Jimyvr : 1955 June CP305 LIM-MEX-YVR-TYO-HKG DC6 (Day 2 from Lima, Day 3 from YVR, YVR-TYO arr 2 days later) CP306 HKG-TYO-YVR-MEX-LIM DC6 (Day 6 from HKG) CP3
45 Naritaflyer : Get real guys. You are talking about a route in the fifties and I'm talking in recent memory. Also, continue dreaming about YVR South America. I'd be
46 EnviroTO : I straight line between GRU and NRT passes directly over YYZ. GRU-YYZ-YYC is shorter than GRU-YVR-YYC although such domestic connections might not ma
47 DYK : Strange things have happened? Lets hope you will be stunned?
48 Naritaflyer : Save it EnviroTO. No matter how logical your explanation might be some will continue to ignore it. They are still stuck in the fifties and listing ro
49 YVR1968 : The YVR-LIM-SCL-EZE route was flown in the 80s as well. That is a fact no matter how "persistent" you are. So it's really not THAT long ago. Naritafly
50 FLYYUL : I love these threads. Does anybody have any demand figures for YVR-South America, before people decide to anecdotally vouch for a service. Keep in min
51 CinJA : This would be a dream come true for me. I fly back to Eastern Canada two or three times a year and the price difference between AC and NW or UA is so
52 Jayce : I've never seen someone so adamant about a market not existing to support a flight. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. This is just an Internet discussi
53 ANother : My apologies, I neglected to look up the definition of 'never'. Just because you weren't alive in the 50s doesn't mean nobody was. These Canadian Pac
54 EnviroTO : I think NRT-YUL-GRU would be less surprising than NRT-YVR-GRU. NRT-YWG-GRU would certainly be the most surprising.
55 Naritaflyer : Okay I took your advice and I'm relaxed now.
56 Olympus69 : But you're not entering Canada. That's the whole point of this system. If you dont clear Canada Customs you haven't entered the country and therefore
57 BSBIsland : I still think NYC is one of the few cities in the world that can rely solely on O/D traffic and not so much on connections, and for JAL such stop is m
58 Jimyvr : The re-newed deal has announced: *Both Japan and Canada can increase up to 7 weekly flights other than Tokyo and Osaka *Modified capacity unit now all
59 Jimyvr : The modified capacity unit should be corrected as: Restriction originally based on the operation unit (in relation the aircraft), now changed to # of
60 ANother : Any change to 5th freedom rights, or the pricing articles?
61 Naritaflyer : Is there a link to this news?
62 Jimyvr : No. The agreement didn't mention anything about 5th freedom rights, nor it was never brought up in the meeting
63 Naritaflyer : Then so much for the rumour that JAL would like to route its GRU flights via Canada. Unless Japan already has Fifth rights and no need to negotiate f
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