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The A380 As A Triple-Decker?  
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 14667 times:

I came across an interesting depiction of the A380 as a triple-decker just moments ago.

Query:

1. What are the chances that the A380 can be equipped as a triple-decker aircraft?

2. What are the chances that the 747-8I or other aircraft could be configured as a triple-decker?

Thank you in advance for your responses.

(Source: http://images.businessweek.com/ss/06/04/jetcabs/index_01.htm )

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBrenintw From Taiwan, joined Jul 2006, 1610 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 14606 times:

The A380 and 748 are already triple deckers, as have been all the 747s. The lowest deck is where baggage and cargo is carried.


I'm tired of the A vs. B sniping. Neither make planes that shed wings randomly!
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 14466 times:

Would you foresee that the lowest deck might be equipped for passenger use in the manner contemplated, I wonder?

User currently offlineEGBJ From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 498 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 14340 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 2):
Would you foresee that the lowest deck might be equipped for passenger use in the manner contemplated, I wonder

Maybe if Ryanair odered one and didn't allow any luggage to be carried  Wink

Seriously though, I doubt airlines would forfeit cargo space for more passengers considering they earn more revenue from this on some sectors.

Rich


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 13991 times:

Oh, I see, now. Thank you for that reply; it is much appreciated.

User currently offlineHeliflyerPDC From Belgium, joined Sep 2006, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 13898 times:

Maybe some VVVIP (or other rich people) would have interest in the "triple deck" design. I can't imagine someone would need all the cargo space (of even half of it)

grtz PDC



grtz PDC
User currently offlineGeo772 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 519 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 13829 times:

Quoting HeliflyerPDC (Reply 5):
Maybe some VVVIP (or other rich people) would have interest in the "triple deck" design. I can't imagine someone would need all the cargo space (of even half of it)

Most scheduled airlines carry a great deal of cargo on intercontinental routes. In fact it is because of the twin deck passenger cabin that the A380 starts to lose out to the 747, and even more so to the 777 and A340 because the passenger bags will occupy more of the available cargo hold.

The frieght in the hold can often make an otherwise unprofitable route profitable, thus providing benefits to consumers and industry alike.



Flown on A300B4/600,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343,B727,B732/3/4/5/6/7/8,B741/2/4,B752/3,B762/3,B772/3,DC10,L1011-200,VC10,MD80,
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 13831 times:

That's quite true!

Now that I think about it, the example of the U.S. Presidential 747 may be of interest. Part of its cargo deck has been converted into a vestibule from which the Passenger and others can exist through a self-carried deplaning stair. I wonder what else they've built into that particular deck!


User currently offlineEGBJ From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 498 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 13799 times:

Quoting Geo772 (Reply 6):
The freight in the hold can often make an otherwise unprofitable route profitable

Very true. Some of Virgin's services to India operate with a very unprofitable load factor, but the freight carried more than makes up for this and makes the route worthwhile.


User currently offlineRheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1968 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 13469 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 2):
Would you foresee that the lowest deck might be equipped for passenger use in the manner contemplated, I wonder?

Douglas once aired the idea of a 'panorama deck' with slant windows in the forward lower hold of the MD-11 (or was it still DC-10 then?).


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 13439 times:

^^ I've seen pictures of early prop-era double-deckers well before the age of the DC-10, obviously, that had lounges downstairs, but not either the DC-10 or MD-11. It would be interesting to know more about the proposed design you mentioned.

User currently offlineGQfluffy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 13417 times:

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 9):
Douglas once aired the idea of a 'panorama deck' with slant windows in the forward lower hold of the MD-11 (or was it still DC-10 then?).

Not sure about MD aircraft, but Lockheed designed something similar for PSA on the L-1011... 1st picture gives a synopsis of this area. I swear there used to be pictures of this space on A.net, but I can't seem to find them.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mick West
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Frank Hudson



User currently offlineChuchoteur From France, joined Sep 2006, 762 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 13389 times:

A340's have an optional below deck crew rest in the aft cargo hold.
I believe Lufthansa is one of the customers who has taken that option.

you have a staircase down, toilets for the pax (which I think is a good idea, keeps the noise and smells away from the cabin!), a galley and the crew rest.

obviously, it's limiting in terms of spare cargo you can lug around, but if you are constrained due to the fact that you're right up there at Max fuel, you may as well use the space...

as to an A380 using the cargo deck, don't think a pax version will ever have that, but on a VVIP... who knows... maybe somewhere to stow the servants?


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 13370 times:

^^ I sort of miss that PSA smile. I used to take PSA between Los Angeles and San Francisco.

^^ In addition to the A380, the VIP 747-8I's that I've read about might allow for a "triple-decker" configuration, I would imagine. The downstairs could be anything -- a disco, even perhaps, since there are no windows.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13182 times:

VIP aircraft can use the lower deck on most widebodies, should they want to, but often those aircraft do use the cargo hold for cargo, mainly bringing rolls royces and such with them to whereever they fly...


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineBluewhale18210 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 237 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13143 times:

Quoting Chuchoteur (Reply 12):
A340's have an optional below deck crew rest in the aft cargo hold.
I believe Lufthansa is one of the customers who has taken that option.

Same for CI's A340-313X. The crew rest area is in the place of 31P, occupying a 92"*125" area. Literally crew lives in a modified LD7.



JPS on A300-600RF A319/320 B737-400/800 B757-200F B767-300F CRJ-200/900. Looking to add more.
User currently offlineFlyLKU From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 800 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 11484 times:

Quoting Brenintw (Reply 1):
The A380 and 748 are already triple deckers, as have been all the 747s. The lowest deck is where baggage and cargo is carried.

Indeed, I have been on at least 1 747 and one L-1011 that each had a large galley below deck. I believe the issue is that these lower decks must be vacated during takeoff and landing. This I believe is due to their lack of adequate provisions for evacuation and perhaps even structural requirements for situations such as a gear up landing. Can others elaborate?



...are we there yet?
User currently offlineADiZzy From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 171 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 11484 times:

When I strike it rich-i will buy and A380 and have its three deckes converted into the ultimate moble home.

User currently offlineTerryb99 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 291 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 11082 times:

I posted this a few weeks ago, in a thread about short 747 routes.

I was at JAL's maintenance base at Haneda in December. While there we talked about all their 747 and 777's used for domestic flights out of Haneda. Simply amazing how many people they move in those short hops.

Later that month when I was back in Seattle, my FAA-DAR was in issuing some 8130-3's for export. He is retired from Boeing and while talking about my trip and the high density 747 and 777 domestic flights in Japan, he mentioned an old project at Boeing.
Seems Boeing and JAL did a joint study of a 747 with non retractable gear to save weight. They would put fairings in front of the gear to help some with aerodynamics. Here is the amazing part; they actually looked at using the cargo level, for seats! It never got past the study level, but what a crazy thought of a 747 flying with the gear down, and filled to the brim with passengers.
Next time he is in, I will ask if he remembers the potential passenger load. I know some of the domestic, single class 747's can be well over 500.


User currently offlinePanAmOldDC8 From Barbados, joined Dec 2006, 960 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 11031 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 10):
I've seen pictures of early prop-era double-deckers well before the age of the DC-10, obviously, that had lounges downstairs, but not either the DC-10 or MD-11

I think the name was the Boeing Strato cruiser, can't remember the number but it had a lounge deck downstairs



Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
User currently offlineFlyLKU From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 800 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 10507 times:

Quoting Terryb99 (Reply 18):
Seems Boeing and JAL did a joint study of a 747 with non retractable gear to save weight.

Ask him if it was because the structure required to provided a belly that could withstand a gear up landing with people in what had been previously been a cargo hold was greater than the weight of the gear and the resulting drag.



...are we there yet?
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 10255 times:

Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Reply 19):
I think the name was the Boeing Strato cruiser, can't remember the number but it had a lounge deck downstairs

Oh, yes, I believe that that's the one.

Here are links to three photos of interest. Ihe first, the photo shows the "double bubble" cross-section of the fuselage. Note the stewardesses (flight attendants) for a size comparison!

http://www.washington.edu/uwired/out...raphics/Boeing%20Stratocruiser.jpg

The second photo is a cutaway of the aircraft in an advertisement:

http://www.airchive.com/Memorabilia/Northwest/**NWAinsert5005.jpg

The third is a sign of comfort aboard the 377 and what one might find oneself doing after a long trip:

http://www.ovi.ch/b377/articles/boeingUnited/sleep.jpg

Finally, here is a link to a page full of Stratocruiser photos and related images:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...um%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN

That Stratocruiser certainly had a tall fuselage, even compared to the A380.  

[Edited to fix second link.]

[Edited 2007-01-23 02:20:08]

User currently offlineBeechNut From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 722 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 10230 times:

Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Reply 19):
I think the name was the Boeing Strato cruiser, can't remember the number but it had a lounge deck downstairs

Boeing 377 Stratocruiser.

Biggest piece of crap Boeing ever made. It used the B29 wings, tail and engines. Had a habit of shedding props. Not that many were built (56) for civilian use, and the hull loss rate was astronomical: 13 hull losses. That's a whopping 23% hull loss rate...

It was rather more successful as military B367, which to the Air Force was known as the KC97 tanker or C97 transport. A total of 888 of those were built.

It was also famous as one of the most awesomely ugly airliners in the sky, so ugly in fact, that this made it beautiful to propliner fanatics like me.

Beech


User currently offlineSpeedbird747BA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 10187 times:

Quoting HeliflyerPDC (Reply 5):
I can't imagine someone would need all the cargo space (of even half of it)

Yeah. Think of all the cargo coming from China to the US, and from China to Europe.

Tons of cargo.

Maybe a possibilty would be .5 for lounges and F, .5 for J, .75 for Y, another .25 for lounges, and 1 for cargo. An efficient system for huge intercontinental routes.


Cheers,
Kyle


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 10052 times:

By the way, can you imagine how the "powder rooms" aboard a premium A380 might look, when one compares to what already was available in the 1950's?

See: http://www.ovi.ch/b377/articles/boeingUnited/beauty.jpg

(The above reminds me of that famous publicity still for an airline or airliner, I believe, in which a certain very young Norma Jean Mortensen appeared. I believe we know her better from her later years, when she became known as Marilyn Monroe of Hollywood and John F. Kennedy fame.)

The A380 and 747-8 surely offer unlimited appeal for people who can afford the very best in interior fittings.


25 PlanenutzTB : I think Airbus needs to focus on just getting a double-deck plane in production before attempting the triple-deck.
26 FlyDreamliner : Well, I mean, Air Force One is chased by a C-17 which carries things like the presidential limo and what not, the belly space isn't exactly necessary
27 Post contains links Grude1087 : Actually, according to JAL's website http://www.jal.co.jp/aircraft/conf/744d.html, they currently hold 546 on a 744D. That's still with 80 in "J-Clas
28 Chuchoteur : I seem to recall reading an article in the specialised press a long time ago on the aircraft... and apparently, it used to have an interesting tenden
29 IOEAOK : Thanks, AeroSpaceFan, for putting those links together for us. Very fun to look at!
30 BeechNut : More of a center-of-gravity issue I would think. This is apparently true. It was also very sensitive to crosswinds because of the tall fuselage. To b
31 Chuchoteur : I still like the idea of a flight engineer... Due to my work, I get to fly jumpseat quite often, and Pilots like the idea of a qualified 3rd person on
32 BA787 : Read what he posted before you reply. He was talking about VVIP customers, not airlines.
33 AerospaceFan : It was my pleasure. The level of amenities provided during passage on the Stratocruiser sets a high standard of personal service for First Class trea
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