Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Bombardier C-Series Nearing Launch?  
User currently offlineEGBJ From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 498 posts, RR: 4
Posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 7299 times:

I thought this project was dead a buried years ago when Embraer beat them to it, but yesterday I read in the newspaper that Bombardier are finalising plans concerning a factory in Belfast to build parts of the airliner.

According to this article they now just need a firm order....

http://www.canada.com/topics/finance...090-4d11-b0a8-b41470c93c8a&k=52257

I think this project could do well, with Embraer's jets only accommodating up to 100 passengers and Boeing's 737/Airbus' A32x seating upwards from 124 seats there is definately a niche for this plane.

I'm sure they will secure an order, but from who??

76 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 7288 times:

Quoting EGBJ (Thread starter):
I'm sure they will secure an order, but from who??

Lufthansa might be one potential customer for various reasons:

a) LH is looking for a 737-500/-300 and Avro RJ replacement

b) LH already has a huge Bombardier fleet and is currently in talks with Bombardier and Embraer for new regional aircraft

c) LH seems to be very reluctant to buy Embraer aircraft



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineCRJ900X From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 197 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 7263 times:

Perhaps KLM will order the C-Series to replace the large fleet of F70/100 aircraft?

Northwest may also be a candidate for plane to replace the DC-9 fleet?

Cheers,

CRJ900X


User currently offlineATCT From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2286 posts, RR: 38
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 7185 times:

This is not to mentioning the NWA Replacing the Dc-9's....whenever that will be.  duck 


ATCT



"The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing." - Walt Disney
User currently offlineJayDub From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 7169 times:

Very interesting...I thought Bombardier decided sometime last year not to persue the C Series project any further.

User currently offlineFlyorski From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 987 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 7156 times:

Quoting Columba (Reply 1):
Lufthansa might be one potential customer for various reasons

Agreed, LH could use the aircraft.



"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 7155 times:

Quoting CRJ900X (Reply 2):
Perhaps KLM will order the C-Series to replace the large fleet of F70/100 aircraft?

It's too big for that. Isn't the C-Series a 110-130 seat aircraft? F70's seat around 70 pax, that's a big jump. Besides, a prop replacement for the F70 is more likely IMHO.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineAvConsultant From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1360 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 7108 times:

Quoting ATCT (Reply 3):
This is not to mentioning the NWA Replacing the Dc-9's....whenever that will be.

Good point. Should we start a thread on this? I don't think it's been discussed.  wink 


User currently offlineDougbr2006 From Brazil, joined Oct 2006, 392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7036 times:

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 7):
Good point. Should we start a thread on this? I don't think it's been discussed

Was discussed at the time when NW placed an order for E170's, it is expected that an order for E190/195's will follow to replace some of the MD/DC routes.

Also Air Canada are returning some Airbuses to the lessor and using E190's in their place.

Discussed last week on these forums was Embraer's plans for a bigger capacity aircraft, a new model not a stretch of the present E170/E190 series.

Embraer- What's Next? (by PavlovsDog Jan 9 2007 in Civil Aviation)?searchid=3190063&s=embraer#ID31900

I would guess if Bombardier are serious about the 'C series' then I think you will get a counter model from Embraer and with the way the E170/E190 series has been selling against the CRJ's recently, I would say that Embraer would have the edge on getting launch orders, I believe the only thing Embraer is waiting for (if they went ahead) would be a new Engine capacity, if Bombardiers offered an engine you can be sure the same will be offered to Embraer.

Another note, Embraer are hiring 3,000 new workers this year and I believe it is the opposite for Bombardier. Why do they need so many new staff!


User currently offlineLawgman From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6833 times:

The problem as I see it is a continued lack of launch customer. Airliners will order revolutionary planes and widebodies well in advance, but securing a launch order on a plane that seats 100, has no new features and would take 5 years until delivery will be an uphill battle. IMO, the C-series is not revolutionary enough to warrant an airliner purchasing it years ahead of time. For some airlines like NW, I doubt they want to continue using their DC9s for 5 more years. The project went dormant last January unless market conditions changes, and I am not sure they have. If BBD does launch (media reports say by end of month) the c-series, I will be surprised if they have a launch customer lined up.

BBD should have purchased the Dornier 728 and 928 program and they would have been successfully competing against Embraer in the 70-100 seat category. As I understand it, BBD had a very cautious risk adverse policy and was concerned that the planes in the Dornier program did not provide the efficiency gains a new design should have over an older design. However, I think they underestimated the market for a plane of that size that was not a stretch of an existing type but was instead a new design for 70-100 the market segmant.


User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6815 times:

Quoting Dougbr2006 (Reply 8):

I would guess if Bombardier are serious about the 'C series' then I think you will get a counter model from Embraer and with the way the E170/E190 series has been selling against the CRJ's recently, I would say that Embraer would have the edge on getting launch orders, I believe the only thing Embraer is waiting for (if they went ahead) would be a new Engine capacity, if Bombardiers offered an engine you can be sure the same will be offered to Embraer.

I don't think you could make any assumptions about launch orders becasue both BBD and EMB would be designing substantially different aircraft. If EMB's answer to the C series was a stretch EMB-195, it would essentially replicate the mistake made by BBD when it though it could answer the E-Jet series with a further stretch of its original CRJ tube. The larger C-series aircraft would sit 135 which would be a hell of a stretch for the EMB-195 tube. I can't even think of a 135-seat aircraft with no middle seats. It would be nice, but I doubt it would be as economical as an all-new design.


User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6806 times:

Quoting Dougbr2006 (Reply 8):
I would guess if Bombardier are serious about the 'C series' then I think you will get a counter model from Embraer and with the way the E170/E190 series has been selling against the CRJ's recently, I would say that Embraer would have the edge on getting launch orders, I believe the only thing Embraer is waiting for (if they went ahead) would be a new Engine capacity, if Bombardiers offered an engine you can be sure the same will be offered to Embraer.

If either of them go any bigger than the current E offerings I expect the response from Boeing will be both swift and vicious.. and one or both of the vendors will be put out or very close to out of business.



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6776 times:

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 11):

If either of them go any bigger than the current E offerings I expect the response from Boeing will be both swift and vicious.. and one or both of the vendors will be put out or very close to out of business.

Don't underestimate the need of Boeing to allow for the appearance of a competitive marketplace, and don't underestimate the need of Boeing to curry favor with the Canadian government for all of those defence contracts coming up. As it stands, the Canadian government is jawboning Boeing as we speak for more industrial offsets for Quebec province - home of BBD - to justifying paying top dollar for C-17 transports. The world is never as black and white as most of us think.

My guess is that if Boeing thought a BBD product was going to sell, it would size up that model and promise the marketplace something better within 24 months of the first C series aircraft coming off the assembly line, but it would not try to be overly aggressive, leaving enough of a market for BBD to pay its bills and make a little money but not to carve out big market share.


User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6701 times:

Quoting Sebring (Reply 12):
Don't underestimate the need of Boeing to allow for the appearance of a competitive marketplace, and don't underestimate the need of Boeing to curry favor with the Canadian government for all of those defence contracts coming up. As it stands, the Canadian government is jawboning Boeing as we speak for more industrial offsets for Quebec province - home of BBD - to justifying paying top dollar for C-17 transports. The world is never as black and white as most of us think.

Well having lived up here for a while I don't know that our government will do much of anything. However, that said, the value of the Canadian contracts are nothing compared to the value of the 737 segment to Boeing. There is no way Boeing is going to give up that segment to a 3 or 4 way split. It's just not going to happen.

Boeing already fired a warning shot at both E and BBD when they announced last year they were considering getting into the RJ space. That was a (not so subtle) hint to both Bombardier and Embraer to tread lightly.

Quoting Sebring (Reply 12):
My guess is that if Boeing thought a BBD product was going to sell, it would size up that model and promise the marketplace something better within 24 months of the first C series aircraft coming off the assembly line, but it would not try to be overly aggressive, leaving enough of a market for BBD to pay its bills and make a little money but not to carve out big market share.

See above. I don't think Boeing would allow such a thing at all... and there have been many indications both psuedo-public and privately that Boeing is strongly considering splitting Y1 into two classes (5wide and 6wide). I think Boeing is more than prepared to take on these two before they become a 'major' problem for Boeing.

I would throw Airbus into the mix, but frankly their hands are so ridiculously full these days I think they will let Boeing fight this battle solo (at least for a while).



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6667 times:

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 13):

I would throw Airbus into the mix, but frankly their hands are so ridiculously full these days I think they will let Boeing fight this battle solo (at least for a while).

Hence the need for competition and why it's a good time for BBD to establish a competitive aircraft. BBD doesn't have the capacity to put a huge dent in the current narrowbody market, and so fears of what it would do to the 737 or its successor are overrated. If Boeing thinks getting into the RJ segment is really worth its attention - it was in there already and got out - it will do so regardless of BBD's intentions.


User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6631 times:

Quoting Sebring (Reply 14):
Hence the need for competition and why it's a good time for BBD to establish a competitive aircraft. BBD doesn't have the capacity to put a huge dent in the current narrowbody market, and so fears of what it would do to the 737 or its successor are overrated. If Boeing thinks getting into the RJ segment is really worth its attention - it was in there already and got out - it will do so regardless of BBD's intentions.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. If Boeing let's BBD into the space Embraer will follow. Between the two of them they will have an impact. Even if they can only fill 10% of the market by volume, they will add pricing pressure. Additionally both will have a growth option further into the market from that point on (having already grown from RJ to NB in this case).

Boeing would be foolish to leave them unchallenged. Both the 737 and 320 would be easy targets for a brand new cleansheet design these days (at the smaller end of their capacity range). Boeing and Airbus would rather milk those designs longer if possible. If BBD makes a move I don't Boeing can afford to not respond.

That complacent 'They can't hurt us' attitude got Boeing in a lot of trouble a few years back, and I don't think they will take that approach again.

I would love to see BBD succeed, but I can't see them doing it in that market.



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineRheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1968 posts, RR: 52
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6538 times:

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 13):
...I don't think Boeing would allow such a thing at all [...] Boeing is more than prepared to take on these two before they become a 'major' problem for Boeing.

So much for 'competition is a good thing'... but you're right. Either BBD and Airbus join up for this segment, or there may be no MD-80 replacement at all. Being faster than the competition in time-to-market, Boeing may just lean back and wait, throwing in some rumbling every now and then, scaring away investors from BBD. If BBD moves, Boeing will move faster. If BBD doesn't, Boeing may just do nothing. The 110-130 seat segment per se isn't exactly high-margin territory.


User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6507 times:

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 16):
The 110-130 seat segment per se isn't exactly high-margin territory.

Actually to be totally honest with you, I think now would be a good time to go after that market with a purpose designed frame. If done right I'm sure the margin could be decent enough to warrant it and there are a LOT of old (and very old) aircraft in that segment right now that desparately need replacing (but also need a better alternative than the half-assed 318 and equally half-assed 736).

If Boeing gets into that market I see I 100-130 seat family, complimenting their 'traditional' Y1 which would be the rest of the current 737 range and a little bit bigger. If done with CFRP the advantages over the aircraft currently in that lower space shoud be tremendous (I'm also including modern engines, where most of the fleet that's in that size range now is prehistoric).



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineTangowhisky From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 912 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6448 times:

Quoting Lawgman (Reply 9):
The problem as I see it is a continued lack of launch customer. Airliners will order revolutionary planes and widebodies well in advance, but securing a launch order on a plane that seats 100, has no new features and would take 5 years until delivery will be an uphill battle. IMO, the C-series is not revolutionary enough to warrant an airliner purchasing it years ahead of time. For some airlines like NW, I doubt they want to continue using their DC9s for 5 more years. The project went dormant last January unless market conditions changes, and I am not sure they have. If BBD does launch (media reports say by end of month) the c-series, I will be surprised if they have a launch customer lined up.

Good summary Lawgman.

I doubt very much NW can be a launch customer as it is under Ch 11 protection - doubt the trustee will see a need to justify buying this plane when it comes due in 5 yrs as the next 1-2 years is the real focus for Ch11 emergence. Same goes for DL. US is becoming an E-Jet customer. CO maybe - but doubt it. AA needs to replace its MD-80s but has no interest in being a launch customer. This leaves Europeans. BA - doubt it as they are focusing on their international routes and offloading domestics. LH is likely, but they maybe be pressured by Airbus (like the 787 vs A350 to wait). In summary, very few options for launch customers other than the small fries.

Quoting Lawgman (Reply 9):
BBD should have purchased the Dornier 728 and 928 program and they would have been successfully competing against Embraer in the 70-100 seat category. As I understand it, BBD had a very cautious risk adverse policy and was concerned that the planes in the Dornier program did not provide the efficiency gains a new design should have over an older design. However, I think they underestimated the market for a plane of that size that was not a stretch of an existing type but was instead a new design for 70-100 the market segmant.

Yes, perhaps they could have gotten a few more orders stolen from Embraer. But there would have been many issues to deal with. Assuming debt and liabilities of FD which Bombardier could not at the time with its balance sheet (worse now). Also the FD728 was a direct competitor to the CRJ 700 - therefore a program/value loss had to be recognised. Given the issues and circumstances, they did the right move not purchasing the FD programs, but could have been a better home to someone like Alenia perhaps.

Quoting Dougbr2006 (Reply 8):
I would guess if Bombardier are serious about the 'C series' then I think you will get a counter model from Embraer and with the way the E170/E190 series has been selling against the CRJ's recently, I would say that Embraer would have the edge on getting launch orders

My guess is Embraer is studying this market and design concepts while watcing what BBD will do, and how busy A and B will be over the next 5-7 years. I believe E will launch an all new plane irrespective what BBD does and does not. If it believes it can compete in the 125-155 seat market, it will launch.

As for your comment about Embraer having the edge on launch orders for an aircraft in this category - you are dead right. Embraer already infiltrated the majors with the E-190/195 that is a huge advantage and stride to leverage from. They can use cockpit commonality to make the bigger plane and follow the 1990's Airbus formula in selling their "family" of jets. The future may look like Embraer covering the 70-150 seat market efficiently with 2 platforms, while A and B covering the 130-220 seat with one platform.



Only the paranoid survive
User currently offlineDougbr2006 From Brazil, joined Oct 2006, 392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6431 times:

Quoting Sebring (Reply 10):
If EMB's answer to the C series was a stretch EMB-195, it would essentially replicate the mistake made by BBD

Embraer have already indicated the existence of research into a new frame nicknamed 200 series at the moment, it was in a Brazillian financial website they even talked about how much investment it would take, though Embraer have refused to comment officially, and I think they did the same before the E170/190 was announced.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 11):
If either of them go any bigger than the current E offerings I expect the response from Boeing will be both swift and vicious

Boeing and Airbus both have enough on thier plates at the moment and it would be difficult for either to ramp up a new B737 or A320 they simply dont have the resources avail at this time or before 2010 if you believe what they have both been saying. I believe an cooperative alliance may be on the horizon, I would suspect A & E and maybe B & B. After all doesn't airbus have a small holding in Embraer (this i am not sure of)

According to A & B the requirements for single ailse for the next 20 years is somthing like 15,000 airframes that means A&B have to produce 375 frames each every year, i guess maybe a third producer will help a lot i dont think either have that capacity at this time thats 32 frames a month each ! wow!


User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6285 times:

Quoting Dougbr2006 (Reply 19):
Boeing and Airbus both have enough on thier plates at the moment and it would be difficult for either to ramp up a new B737 or A320 they simply dont have the resources avail at this time or before 2010 if you believe what they have both been saying.

Actually that's not what Boeing has been saying at all. Boeing has been claiming the engines for a 737RS aren't available so they aren't doing it until then. Boeing hasn't ever complained about lack of resources to my knowledge.

Additionally if Boeing did drop into the 5 wide market, the engine arguement would be at least partially mooted. Don't ever underestimate the competition.. this goes for all the involved companies (Airbus, Boeing, Bombardier, Embraer).

Quoting Dougbr2006 (Reply 19):
According to A & B the requirements for single ailse for the next 20 years is somthing like 15,000 airframes that means A&B have to produce 375 frames each every year, i guess maybe a third producer will help a lot i dont think either have that capacity at this time thats 32 frames a month each ! wow!

The last thing Boeing wants is a third (or fourth) part putting pressure on margins. They are quite happy with a Duopoly.



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineWestJetYQQ From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2987 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6247 times:

Quoting Dougbr2006 (Reply 8):
Also Air Canada are returning some Airbuses to the lessor and using E190's in their place.

How many is Some?
What types is AC leasing?



Will You Try to Change Things? Use the Power that you have, the Power of a Million new Ideas.
User currently offlineTangowhisky From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 912 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6221 times:

Quoting Dougbr2006 (Reply 19):
Embraer have already indicated the existence of research into a new frame nicknamed 200 series .......... and I think they did the same before the E170/190 was announced.

You are 100% right.

Quoting Dougbr2006 (Reply 19):
Boeing and Airbus both have enough on thier plates at the moment and it would be difficult for either to ramp up a new B737 or A320 they simply dont have the resources avail at this time or before 2010 if you believe what they have both been saying. I believe an cooperative alliance may be on the horizon, I would suspect A & E and maybe B & B. After all doesn't airbus have a small holding in Embraer (this i am not sure of)

According to A & B the requirements for single aisle for the next 20 years is something like 15,000 airframes that means A&B have to produce 375 frames each every year, i guess maybe a third producer will help a lot i dont think either have that capacity at this time thats 32 frames a month each ! wow!

Airbus's stake on Embraer is purely an investment. Any cooperation would require a different business tone. I don't see how a cooperation would work. Why would A and B do that? Why complicate their business. It costs them loose change to launch a 100 seat jet. For them bigger the plane, bigger the margins (think SUVs versus compacts). If they were to enter this market, it would be to ensure that bottom feeders stay at the bottom. My guess is they will compete against a good all new 100 seat jet with shrunken 150 seat jets as they have been doing with Y1. The E190/195 is taking crumbs from a big pie in the narrowbody jet. If Embraer or Bombardier come up with a 130-150 seat jet, they will take a small slice. And this small slice may be large enough for E and BBD, but not worth the development or cooperative effort for A and B.

Contrary to the belief that there are no interested partners as being the main reason, I believe that the main reason BBD is having trouble launching the C series is that they do not have good solid launch orders with solid airlines. If they get that, that would mean there is credible market interest, and then they will get investment partners and serious engine talk.

Embraer on the other hand has a higher potential to get launch customers (should they enter this market) as they continue make greater and greater penetration with mainline carriers with their 190/195. Here is a list of mainline customers that are in a good position (with cockpit commonality) to launch the E200: US, Finair, Virgin Blue, NW, Air Canada, Jet Blue, FlyBe, Egyptair, and Copa. They can all use an efficient 125-155 seat jet (some have A319s and A318s). Take note that Embraer has sold over twice as many E190s as E170s and the momentum is riding on the larger jets. This list of mainline carriers in their portfolio is increasing and this will be their greatest asset in launching a true mainline narrowbody jet. The technology and engines will be risky, but they have been through worst than that over the past 15 years.



Only the paranoid survive
User currently offlineVonRichtofen From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 4627 posts, RR: 36
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6147 times:

I've heard that LH is very happy with their BBD fleet and it has an incredible dispatch reliability. Can any insiders confirm this?


Kris



Word
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8958 posts, RR: 40
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 6028 times:

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 23):
I've heard that LH is very happy with their BBD fleet and it has an incredible dispatch reliability. Can any insiders confirm this?

If they launch the C-series, it will come with all that comes with a new aircraft - great performance, but also bugs that need to be ironed out.

The CRJ is a proven platform because its been in service for something like 15 years. The CR7/9 are stretches with some improvements over the CR2. Essentially the same aircraft. A new family will start from reliability "unknown".



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
25 Columba : Why should they be pressured by Airbus ? Airbus does not really offer an aircraft in that segment. I only can think that after the Fairchild Dornier
26 TSS : Whether it be from Bombardier, Embraer, Boeing, or Airbus, a 5-across 100-125 seater aircraft already has a pre-existing market just replacing all the
27 ANITIX87 : What does this planned C-series even look like? This is the first I hear of it. I know LX used to use EMB-135 and 145, but as they start to replace th
28 Tangowhisky : I agree with you that they would be careful about being a lone launch customer. As for Airbus, what I meant was that they may be telling LH to wait a
29 Lawgman : I think the problem is that they are getting older everyday. Can the airlines that operate these aircraft wait 5 years for something new? E-Jets can
30 Lawgman : Labor costs represent a critical advantage to Embraer (along with the strength of the Canadian dollar). If BBD is going to launch the C-Series, they
31 Okie73 : this is the bottom line. Though it is still receiving orders, the CRJ series will soon be dead. If Bombardier wants to remain a viable manufacturer o
32 Boeing7E7 : Not to mention it might simply be more cost effective for Boeing to let BBD build what it want's without competing and not build a 717/737-600/A318 s
33 Osiris30 : Rule 1 of business: Never let a competitor get a foot hold in your marketplace. Allow BBD or E to sneak up into the 100-130 seat market leaves the do
34 Boeing7E7 : They don't have a 100 seat foothold. They lost it with the RJ's an will never regain it. This is why they and Airbus have both sold so few aircraft i
35 Osiris30 : No.. they have sold so few aircraft in that segment because they are throwing crap at the segment. The 736 and 318 aren't credible competitors in tha
36 Dougbr2006 : Tangowhisky I agree with your post on thw valid reasons why E should go ahead. I suppose only time will tell, only E knows the plans for the coming mo
37 Boeing7E7 : And a replacement centered around 160 seats won't be optimum either in a 100 seat variant.
38 Post contains images Osiris30 : ?????? Where do you get a 5wide being centered around 160 seats???!?!?!?!?!?!?!
39 Boeing7E7 : You missed the entire context of my entire post:
40 Lnglive1011yyz : Am I the only one who thought that Bombardier had axed the C-Series?? I found this article to be.. a shock quite frankly.. perhaps I just haven't been
41 Osiris30 : You're right I must have missed something because I don't see what that assumption is predicated on. Why would airlines do that. Why would Boeing be
42 Lawgman : The articles that came out at the beginning of the month on the C-series indicate that BBD has optimized the plane for 110 seats to ensure greater fu
43 Lawgman : When BBD announced a year ago that they were not going ahead with the C-Series, they indicated they would keep the program alive with a skeleton staf
44 Boeing7E7 : 1. Airlines do that today, and have for decades. They chose a fleet that fits their business plan. This is why NW has held on to their DC-9's for so
45 Osiris30 : But your entire arguement is predicated around why someone would chose a BBD product over an ill-suited Boeing product.. but what if, as I'm suggesti
46 Boeing7E7 : 1. Boeing hasn't decided what it is going to do in that class of aircraft. If the demand is for 140 and above and there is a lack of interest for a 1
47 Okie73 : I would disagree with you there. By allowing Bombardier and Embraer free reign in the regional market, Boeing and Airbus allowed two potential compet
48 Osiris30 : This is where we fundamentally disagree. Now Boeing/Airbus are on the virge of giving away the market just one step below their cream of the NB marke
49 Tangowhisky : yes and who knows, some people at E may be reading the threads on this site. OK, some good points made here. considering their situation, I don't thi
50 Boeing7E7 : No, just no market for Boeing and Airbus. I assume you mean aging, not again. This is the type of flying that will be outsourced because mainline pay
51 Post contains images Osiris30 : Ya.. I did mean aging LOL.. oops. As for that type of lfying be outsourced I'm not sure I agree at all. Hell look at Airtran I believe it is with the
52 Boeing7E7 : Most of those routes would be better served the next 10-15 years with ERJ's. Places like Fargo, Bismark, Madison, etc... where the -9's are used have
53 Centrair : Wasn't NW's deposits that are now for the CRJ-900 originally for the C-series? I remember reading something a year or two back that NW was looking to
54 Tangowhisky : NW was a potential candidate for the C Series but no contractual confirmations or LOIs.
55 Areopagus : A lack of interest from their customers, or from the expanded pool of potential customers if only they would competitively address the market? That r
56 Boeing7E7 : Let me put it in simple terms for you. Would you build an aircraft based on Southwest's needs and let others decide which aircraft to use based on wh
57 FD728 : I can't see either LH or NW order something like the C-series. Why not? Because... Lufthansa's A32x order last year is sufficient for replacing the 73
58 Columba : The order is for: 5 A319 10 A320 15 A321 While the A319 and A320 could be a replacement for 737-300 there are no decent replacement for the 737-500.
59 CRJ900 : NWA has options for 96 x CRJ900 at present. I too doubt they will launch the C-Series. Too long in the making and too many innovative features that m
60 Dougbr2006 : Check Bombardiers site and you will see that the current outstanding orders by Northwest are in actual fact 36 firm order CRJ900's, the order was pla
61 Post contains images CRJ900 : Check Bombardier's press release which states that NWA has 36 firm orders and options for an additional 96 x CRJ900 for a total of 132 x CRJ900. The
62 Dougbr2006 : These are pure options as they are with Embraer unless they are converted they are worthless to both, I used the reference to acknowledge the comment
63 Dougbr2006 : Another acknoledgement of the Embraer product is the potential order by Japan Air Lines for 10 aircarft which is getting closer by the day, JAL has be
64 PHLBOS : How long has LH been looking? One possible replacement (the 717) just ceased production just several months ago.
65 Mrocktor : Ever since the FD728 croaked.
66 Columba : LH is looking for several years now. After Fairchild Dornier went bankrupt LH started an initiative for a common Star Alliance purchase for new regio
67 PPVRA : I think Embraer should diversify it's products before going much larger and head to head with A and B. They are already doing that with the business j
68 Metroliner : just out of interest, how well did the erj-145 awacs model fare in the market? didn't the swedish air force order some with the ericsson erieye radar
69 PPVRA : Brazil, Mexico, and Greece operate the AWACS and similar models. Belgium and India have VIP Legacies. But none of them are very large orders. The Swe
70 Metroliner : how could i forget? i can understand the bandeirante is getting old; weren't embraer contemplating a replacement at some point? the c-130-sized trans
71 PPVRA : Not anymore, or for very long. EADS is selling their 2.12% stake on Embraer. Thales sold its stake back in September(they were eyeing the Brazilian a
72 Burnsie28 : Don't think so, with the 175's coming online, NW will very likely pick up 195's for mainline.
73 Areopagus : No doubt they would satisfy their current customers. That doesn't preclude their going down-market with another plane, though.
74 Rheinbote : Why would they do that? For the money? Or could this be a prelude for a closer tie-up with Bombardier to counter a 110seat son-of-Y1 as put on the ta
75 Dougbr2006 : If there were a tie up between Airbus or Boeing with BBD or EMB I think it more likely to be Boeing - BBD and Airbus - EMB or are you thinking that t
76 PPVRA : Apparantly for the same reasons as Thales: Also, last year Embraer went through a restructuring which eliminated EADS's right to appoint 2 members to
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Bombardier C Series posted Tue Dec 19 2006 09:21:13 by Kearney
Bombardier C Series posted Sun Oct 8 2006 20:20:16 by 747400sp
US Looks At Bombardier's Q Series. posted Tue Aug 22 2006 08:19:46 by Mah584jr
What Happen To Bombardier C-series? posted Tue Dec 20 2005 02:09:13 by AirbusCanada
Bombardier C Series News! posted Fri Dec 16 2005 10:10:03 by FCKC
Latest On The Bombardier C-Series? posted Sun Oct 9 2005 23:13:17 by B742
Bombardier C Series posted Wed Aug 24 2005 00:26:43 by DFORCE1
Bombardier C Series 110 And 130 - Any Info? posted Fri Aug 19 2005 21:40:27 by AirRyan
Bombardier C-Series Question posted Thu Jun 30 2005 15:02:22 by Tennisace
AF Interested In Bombardier's C Series posted Fri Jun 24 2005 16:37:10 by YUL332LX