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ATC At Fault In Gol 737-Legacy Collision In Brazil  
User currently offlineBaron95 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1335 posts, RR: 8
Posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6620 times:

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/13_4...trollers_Share_Blame_194287-1.html

Finaly, some inevitable acknowledgments of the root cause of this accident by Brazilian authorities. They still cling to partially/potential/unspecified fault by the legacy crew. However, as it has been known by anyone who has bothered to read the prelim accident reports plus reports on this crash, the primary cause was ATC clearing both airplanes on the same airway at FL370 in oposite direction and then failing multiple times for over 1 hour to take corrective actions as the planes converged.

Sad that it has taken so long. Sadder that misplaced Brazilian patriotism has tried to pin the blane on the Legacy crew. Saddest of all that 154 people are dead because of a basic and fundamental ATC error and string of missed opportunities to correct.

Lets hope the final report is professional and dispassionate in pointing the causes.


Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2561 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6441 times:

What a misleading header! How biased can one be?

Thank you for providing this link, but anyone who follows it, will see that the investigators are not putting the blame on ATC as Baron95 has managed to spin it, but instead "a share of the blame".

And on the question of patriotism, it is best to look for specks's in one's eye before looking for it in others, one could well find a beam.

I have every confidence that the final report will be "professional and dispassionate in pointing the causes"

[Edited 2007-01-23 15:18:43]

User currently offlineKatekebo From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 704 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6379 times:

I think Brazilian authorities are demonstrating their professionalism by setting false patriotism and politics aside, and making an objective assessment. If only America government had enough integrity to acknowledge it's mistakes and correct them in due time .....

User currently offlineAcontador From Chile, joined Jul 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 30
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6292 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Interesting to hear the comments from our Brazilian A.netters...

But why scratch the surface when you can go deeper. The big question is really: Why did ATC clear both airplanes on the same airway at FL370 in opposite direction and then failing multiple times for over 1 hour to take corrective actions as the planes converged?

When you start looking at working conditions, local ATC setup, etc., you start to sea the underlying causes, which if not remedied will lead to another incident/accident sooner or later.



Just sit back, relax and have a glass of Merlot...enjoy your life!
User currently offlineFMAL From Brazil, joined Jan 2004, 486 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6272 times:

Very misleading title. Veja, the main Brazilian weekly magazine (our "Time") brings transcripts of the Legacy's black box this week, where the Legacy pilots realize, instants after the crash, that their TCAS/Transponder was off.

This is why they suddenly reappear with full info on the controller's radars moments after the crash. However, this does not excuse the apparent fault by ATC also.

What the reports will likely show is that mistakes by the Legacy pilots and by ATC cause the crash, and both will be blamed for their respective mistakes.


User currently offlineLVTMB From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6174 times:

Well, it has been clear from day one that the obvious main cause of the accident was the fact that both airplanes were placed at the same FL in opposite directions. If you consider that, the obvious conclusion is that air traffic control (as a system) failed, since its main reason of existence is to ensure air traffic separation. Having said that, contributing factors seem to be the Legacy pilots failure to realize their transponder was off, as well as all of the ATC communications snafu.

I have a question for those familiar with the accident investigation: Have the CVR and FDR from the Gol 737 provided any indication of why the Gol crew failed to detect the oncoming Legacy? Was the 737's transponder working? Did TCAS detect the Legacy? By the way, not implying anything whatsoever, just curious.

MB


User currently offlineKatekebo From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 704 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6145 times:

Quoting LVTMB (Reply 5):
Was the 737's transponder working?

Apparently, yes (based on the available information)

Quoting LVTMB (Reply 5):
Did TCAS detect the Legacy?

No, because the Legacy transponder was off. The TCAS can detect traffic only if the transponders in BOTH aircrafts is on. With the transponder in the Legacy off, there is no way the TCAS in the Boeing could detect the approaching airplane.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11439 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6102 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

I will wait for the final report, but in a situation that a LOT of faults from ATC & Legacy Crew, i can only say something: the only one without folk was Gol Crew: without TCAS confirmation (impossible as it's clear Legacy transponder was off), lack of ATC communication, even with a top equipment they paid the higher price in this tragic accident, and despite any patriotism, 154 people died, mostly Brazilians.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineFMAL From Brazil, joined Jan 2004, 486 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5956 times:

I think there's very little patriotism at hand here.

I'm sure that, as in most of the air disasters in the world, investigations will reveal that a series of oversights and faults, both by controllers and by the Legacy crew, will be the cause of the accident.


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9661 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5821 times:

That wasn't the most descriptive of articles, but it mentions that the controllers who are part of the military could spend 12 years in jail for their actions. It seems like a mistake like that which was not intentional doesn't deserve 12 years in jail. That sounds more like a sentence of revenge. Are there precedents on penalties on controllers in other parts of the world that are responsible for incidents?


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineTommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5782 times:

ATC has the responsibility to separate traffic, that's why they're there and clear aircraft in a manner they do and aircraft follow their clearances.

Even if the Legacy crew had forgot to switch on their transponder or switched it off somewhere in flight, ATC should have noticed it and asked the crew to ident.

The fact that one plane does not return a transponder signal or ident does not excuse clearing the planes onto conflicting courses and keeping them on conflicting sources for 1 hour or more without correcting the clearances.

After all, the pilots were flying their clearances correctly. If ATC needed more information from the Legacy, they should have said something about it.

If ATC were unable to communicate with the Legacy or of it's exact location, and had wanted to solve the conflict in the previous clearances, they should have told the GOL flight to change course/altitude.

The fact is, ATC lost track of the conflict and never resolved it.

This has nothing to do with transponders being off. ATC should be able to notice if an aircraft has it's transponder off or not right away.

It's also en error to say that if the transponder had been on, that the clearance error would not have happened or would have been resolved before the crash - nobody knows that. All we know is ATC failed in their basic job and they just as well could have let the conflict stand - transponder signal or no transponder signal. ATC already had enough information to know there was a conflict even without a transponder signal and they failed to act on it.

ATC should not become so lazy as to say to themselves that should they make an error that TACAS will bail them out, especially if they have on their screens an aircraft without a transponder signal.

The lack of a transponder signal from the Legacy should have been a red flag to ATC to be even more proactive, as that's not a regular thing.

Yes, TACAS would have warned the pilots that ATC put them on a collision course, but then ATC also knew TACAS wouldn't work in this case with a missing transponder signal.


User currently offlineAcontador From Chile, joined Jul 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 30
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5688 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

And still nobody has even started to answer the big question:

Quoting Acontador (Reply 3):
Why did ATC clear both airplanes on the same airway at FL370 in opposite direction and then failing multiple times for over 1 hour to take corrective actions as the planes converged?

If we have a Brazilian ATC on board, maybe he could tell you a little about their working conditions...
Do not forget that this is not the US, and in particular in Brazil ATC is a huge problem.
It is a military organization, the guys working on the screens are NCOs under a strict chain of command, way understaffed and underpaid, there is no radar coverage around the collision area (no money for new radars), etc...are you getting my point?



Just sit back, relax and have a glass of Merlot...enjoy your life!
User currently offlinePhilb From Ireland, joined May 1999, 2915 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5555 times:

Tommytoyz, your post is unbalanced.

Sure ATC has responsibilities and must take a percentage of the blame but an aircraft commander is 100% responsible for the safe conduct of his flight and should have been aware that his transponder was not active.

Come down off your patriotic high horse and show some balance.


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5492 times:

All accidents have a sequence of events that occur prior to the incident. If any of those events had not occurred, neither would the accident.

ATC may have made a mistake, but:

Quoting Philb (Reply 12):
an aircraft commander is 100% responsible for the safe conduct of his flight and should have been aware that his transponder was not active.


User currently offlineULMFlyer From Brazil, joined Sep 2006, 475 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5481 times:

Quoting FMAL (Reply 4):
Veja, the main Brazilian weekly magazine (our "Time") brings transcripts of the Legacy's black box this week, where the Legacy pilots realize, instants after the crash, that their TCAS/Transponder was off.

Although Veja has done a very good job covering the accident, I thought this particular article was very confusing and refrained from posting here its content.

First of all, Veja only provided a translation of some CVR content, not the English transcripts, so it was very hard to judge how accurate it is. In the translation, the pilots note that the TCAS was off. Then Veja goes on to say that the TCAS is bundled with the transponder, so that they're either both on or off. Is this really the case? Baron95? Obviously, if the transponder is off, so is the TCAS, but I'm not sure the converse is true. Nevertheless, it seems both were off, as the B738 TCAS would be able to provide a RA if only the Legacy's transponder were on.

However, if the article is accurate, it provides evidence that the Legacy crew did not intentionally turn either equipment off. Not only there's no mention of this in the CVR (if there were, you bet people would be all over them), but also they seem surprised by the fact. But Veja then states that after they land, one of the pilots apologizes to the other, and then the magazine speculates whether this apology was for having turned the transponder/TCAS off (a cheap shot IMHO, but they at least unsuccessfully tried to contact the pilots for an explanation and let their Brazilian lawyer state that isolated quotes could be misinterpreted out of context).

I thought they should have released the original transcripts by now. Maybe we'll have to wait until the final report is released, as LipeGIG suggests. As of yet, I agree with Baron95 that the main cause rests with ATC, with an equipment malfunction contributing. Unless the crew blatantly failed to notice some PFD/MFD/panel indication that the transponder was off, I can't see how they'd be at fault.



Let's go Pens!
User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4335 posts, RR: 28
Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 5438 times:

Quoting Tommytoyz (Reply 10):
The fact is, ATC lost track of the conflict and never resolved it.

This has nothing to do with transponders being off. ATC should be able to notice if an aircraft has it's transponder off or not right away.

Early last year, I had ATC ask me to ident when the transponder on the old 172 I was flying was malfunctioning. Not sure why when a jet such as the Legacy is flying at altitude in the equivalent of class A airspace in Brazil, which should always be under the control of ATC, that ATC would not notice this problem. In the U.S. -- and under ICAO rules -- any aircraft flying in the equivalent of Class A airspace must be under the control of ATC and is considered to be flying via IFR.

Quoting Philb (Reply 12):
an aircraft commander is 100% responsible for the safe conduct of his flight and should have been aware that his transponder was not active.

What if his transponder was malfunctioning?

Yes, an aircraft commander is 100% responsible for the safe conduct of his flight, but that doesn't mean he can predict what other flights around him are doing. That is why at jet-cruise altitudes aircraft are under the watchful eye of ATC.



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlineULMFlyer From Brazil, joined Sep 2006, 475 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 5390 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 15):
Not sure why when a jet such as the Legacy is flying at altitude in the equivalent of class A airspace in Brazil, which should always be under the control of ATC, that ATC would not notice this problem.

Because they screwed up. It was clear on their scopes that they were not receiving the transponder signal from the Legacy. Yet, because of a shift change, they went for 24 mins without trying to contact the Legacy. When they finally did, she was in an area of poor radio coverage and couldn't be raised.



Let's go Pens!
User currently offlineTommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5325 times:

Quoting Philb (Reply 12):
Come down off your patriotic high horse and show some balance.

What does patriotism have to do with my post? Sorry, that's not called for.

Quoting Philb (Reply 12):
Sure ATC has responsibilities

Absolutely, ATC has responsibilities according to established international aeronautical rules and cross border agreements and I'm sure even domestic Brazilian laws and rules.

All I'm trying to say is that according to these rules and laws, ATC has the entire burden here. In any other situation, ATC would ask the non emitting jet to ident. That is to press the ident button on their transponder so that the controller can see their transponder signal. If this fails, or if the jet does not respond, then other traffic must be vectored to avoid the non responsive jet.

It's pretty standard procedure.

The basic fact here is that ATC was asleep at the wheel, got sloppy, was distracted, had internal miscommunication - whatever you want to call it. It's ATC that put them on the collision course. Both pilots were merely correctly flying their clearances unaware of the conflicting clearance of the other had, as they were both in different ATC sectors when they were given their clearances that put them on a collision course.

They were left on the collision course for so long that there is no excuse. This has nothing to do with a transponder being off. There was a conflict created by ATC and they did not try to correct it in time to avoid disaster. I also never heard them trying to contact the GOL flight to vector them.

TACAS probably would have averted the collision, but it being inop due to the transponder being off did not cause the collision nor put them on a collision course. ATC did that.

The fact that it took ATC so long for them to notice the conflicting clearances makes it clear as day to me they were not paying attention when they should have, not to mention the fact that the clearances should never have conflicted in the first place. The Legacy should not have been cleared to that altitude on that heading. Ditto for the fact that ATC also never noticed that the transponder was as off.

When there is an area that is known for poor radio coverage, it makes it even more important for ATC to be vigilant about a/c clearances going into those areas and sector handoffs, not less - because corrections may be impossible - as seen here.

Basically, ATC caused this. Shame on them for trying to push off the blame. End of story for me.


User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5290 times:

Quoting LVTMB (Reply 5):
Well, it has been clear from day one that the obvious main cause of the accident was the fact that both airplanes were placed at the same FL in opposite directions.



Quoting Tommytoyz (Reply 10):
ATC has the responsibility to separate traffic, that's why they're there and clear aircraft in a manner they do and aircraft follow their clearances.

It appears that ATC made a basic mistake and put 2 aircraft on a potential collision course. To me that is the essence of the matter. Any failure by the pilots concerned to become aware of the ATC error is not of the same order to me.

The gravity of the ATC's "crime of commission" dwarfs any "crimes of ommision" by the pilots, in my opinion.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5211 times:

Quoting Acontador (Reply 11):
And still nobody has even started to answer the big question:

Quoting Acontador (Reply 3):
Why did ATC clear both airplanes on the same airway at FL370 in opposite direction and then failing multiple times for over 1 hour to take corrective actions as the planes converged?

If you go back to old threads you will see many points cited that may have contributed to that.

Renato Sayao iirc is the Federal Police Investigator. That investigation as far as I am concerned is bogus until we hear from the technical investigation (the duly proper investigation) being carried out by the airforce's Accident Investigation and Prevention Team (or some similar title).



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineBaron95 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1335 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5106 times:

Quoting ULMFlyer (Reply 14):
Then Veja goes on to say that the TCAS is bundled with the transponder, so that they're either both on or off. Is this really the case? Baron95?

I am certainly not type rated on the Legacy/ERJs nor do I have accss to a flight manual. However, for the planes that I know, transponder and TCAS can be turned on/off independently.

If the Legacy transponder was on but TCAS was off, the GOL/737 TCAS would have interrogated the Legacy transponder and gotten a repply, issued an RA/warning to the Gol crew. The Legacy, on the other hand would have gotten no RA/warning as their TCAS was off (either not interrogating, or not allerting).

On the other hand, if the Legacy transponder was off, but their TCAS was on, their TCAS would still have interrogated the GOL transponder and issue an RA. The GOL/737 would not get an RA as their TCAS would not get a transponder reuturn from their interrogation.

I should note, that this is the mode in planes where TCAS was added as a requirment after main avionics were certified. It is possible that in the Legacy, there is some coupling of transponder and TCAS, but I doubt it. It is certainly possible to turn off TCAS RA alerts with transponder on.

I hope this help, but unfortunately in this case I do not have definitive information. Any ERJ drivers from American Eagle or such out there that can clear up?

Maybe I'll cross post it on tech/ops and see if I get lucky.



Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
User currently offlineBaron95 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1335 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5069 times:

Quoting Acontador (Reply 3):
The big question is really: Why did ATC clear both airplanes on the same airway at FL370 in opposite direction and then failing multiple times for over 1 hour to take corrective actions as the planes converged?

When you start looking at working conditions, local ATC setup, etc., you start to sea the underlying causes, which if not remedied will lead to another incident/accident sooner or later

There have been too many detailed discussions here as to the causes of this accident - and you are right, the primary objective should be to learn what went wrong so it can be fixed and not happen again. The tone was set wrong by the minister of defense of Brazil (all ATC report to him and all accident investigators report to him) stating early on that ATC was not at fault and that the Legacy crew caused the accident.

To recap the facts that are not in (serious) dispute:
1 - Controllers at the departure airport cleared the Legacy all the way to the destination at FL370, which of course takes precedence over the flight plan filed altitudes (however, it took the Brazilian Minister of Defense and the Brazilian press a few months to stop talking about the Legacy violating the flight plan altitudes).
2 - Brazilian ATC software, has a "feature" (which I call a fatal flaw), where it will automatically update the cleared altitude of plane to the flight plan altitudes EVEN IF A CONTROLLER NEVER CLEARS A FLIGHT TO THAT ALTITUDE. Therefore, as the Legacy passed over Brasilia VOR, the data block of the Legacy was changed to indicate FL360 as the cleared altitude.
3 - Brazilian ATC sector controllers hand-off the Legacy flight to other sectors saying that they were at FL 360. A shift change occurs and again the departing controller briefs his replacement as the Legacy being at FL360. While all that is going on there is a total of only 3 (THREE) targets on that sector.
4 - For 12-24 minutes (I forgot which) after Brasilia the Legacy has a datablock listing that it is at FL370 while being cleared to FL360. Controllers still do nothing, make no calls.
5 - After that, first transponder returns, then communications become intermittent. Only primary radar returns (which have altitude readouts of +- 1,500 feet are available till the collision. We are still 30 minutes away from the collision, still ATC does nothing to clear the airspace. Note that primary radar was still showing the Legacy around FL370+- 1,500 feet.
6 - Now, minutes before the collision, both ATC and the Legacy are trying desperately to reach each other - multiple calls from all sides, only one partially copied by the Legacy. ATC makes no attempt at relaying communications via other aircraft in the area (I'm not sure if that would help, but after the collision the Legacy did get relay comms to ATC via a cargo flight). Is it possible that the Legacy crew is now fidgeting with Radios and transponders to be seen and heard? Yes. Is it likely that they turned off transponder? No. Is it possible that TCAS was off? Yes. Likely that they turned if off? No.
7 - Brasilia sector hands-off the Legacy flight to Manaus, briefing the flight at FL360. No mention that they had no secondary radar (precise altitude). No mention that they have not been cleared to FL360 or 380 as per flight plan. No mention of any concern by Brasilia controllers.
8 - ATC does nothing to move the Gol/737 out of the way.
9 - ATC does nothing to tell "GOL 1907 traffic, 12-oçlock opposite direction 5 miles, FL360", which you would normally get in a RSVM 1,000 ft vertical separation situation.
10 - No call from ATC to the GOL saying traffic 12 o-clock, altitude unknown as is customary when secondary radar (transponder mode C) is not being received.
11 - ATC does nothing to climb, descend or vector the GOL around the possible conflict, EVEN THOUGH THERE WERE NO OTHER PLANES ABOVE, BELOW, OR TO EITHER SIDE.
12 - If you want to be a stickler, BOTH CREWS failed in their see-and-avoide responsibilities since the flights were in clear air with excellent visibility.
13 - The saddest of all things happened - an accident, with a monumental ATC failure as the root cause and several missed opportunities to recover from the root cause. 154 people died. God bless them and their families. PLEASE NOTE THAT THE ATC SYSTEM IS SUPPOSED TO WORK WHEN TRANSPONDERS FAIL, WHEN RADAR FAILS, WHEN COMMS FAIL. It is truly a system where you assume that any link can fail at any time and IFR flights are still properly separated.
14 - Minister of Defense claims that Legacy crew is at fault and ATC did nothing wrong.
15 - Legacy crew has their passports sequestered and can't leave the county for weeks with no charge or process as a critical witness.
16 - ATC workers in CIMDACTA 1 (Brasilia), KNOW THEY WERE AT FAULT, and immediately start a white strike, handling all flights by the book with standard separation. This throws the entire Brazilian aviation system into chaos, with hundreds of cancelled and delayed flights.
17 - When subpoened to give a deposition by the federal police investigators, ALL, Brasilia ATC shift workers obtain a fraudulent doctor's certificate that they are sick and unable to attend a deposition. ALL OF THEM did that. And it stood like that for weeks.
18 - Eventually, due to the weight of the evidence, Brazilian Airforce (in charge of the investigation) officials and the press, start to hint that "ATC may have failed, but primary cause of the accident, rests with the Legacy crew".
19 - Now, they are "co-culprits, both equally responsible", because ATC was supposed to have implemented procedures when the Legacy crew turned off the transponder. NOTE: STILL NO TALK OF ATC BEING THE ROOT CAUSE FOR CLEARING BOTH FLIGHTS TO FL370.
20 - Eventually it may change to ATC being at fault with the Legacy crew contributing due to transponder issue, but it will be a long time till we get there. If ever.
21 - When the final report comes out, there is little reason to expect that it will zero in on the root causes. It will be a defensive (of ATC) report, simply because the organization in charge of the report is the same organization in charge of ATC and their boss already said that ATC did no wrong.

I hope this helps and that I didn't come across as too biased. I do believe that someone must provide a counter to the snow job of the Brazilian Minister of Defense, the Brazilian Airforce investigators and the Brazilian patriotic press.

Cheers.

[Edited 2007-01-24 09:14:33]


Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
User currently offlineSpeedbird128 From Pitcairn Islands, joined Oct 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5010 times:

Quoting Tommytoyz (Reply 10):
ATC should not become so lazy as to say to themselves that should they make an error that TACAS will bail them out

THat's out of line Mr TommyToyz. Don't throw your toys about on a subject you apparently know nothing about.

And it is TCAS. Not TACAS.

One day once you've been an ATC and you can understand the responsibility and the number of lives you have to deal with every day - you can comment on how lazy we should not be.



A306, A313, A319, A320, A321, A332, A343, A345, A346 A388, AC90, B06, B722, B732, B733, B735, B738, B744, B762, B772, B7
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9112 posts, RR: 75
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4993 times:

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 20):

I hope this help, but unfortunately in this case I do not have definitive information.

Also would be interested to know what warning one gets in the legacy in this situation of a TCAS or transponder being off in flight, in the Airbus we get messages if TCAS is not selected on in flight, or in TA mode only.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineTommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4974 times:

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 22):
One day once you've been an ATC and you can understand the responsibility and the number of lives you have to deal with every day - you can comment on how lazy we should not be.

Speedbird,
I'm referring to the way the government officials were trying shift the blame onto the pilots......by that logic, ATC should be able to rely on pilots avoiding collisions by themselves since they have due to TCAS. I said it badly but meant to point out the logic in the official's argument.


25 Baron95 : I checked around, found no ERJ drivers or people with access to the flight manual to confirm this. However I have confirmed that the transponder and
26 Baron95 : I don't think anyone in this thread has minimized the importance of ATC and how critical their role is to flight safety. I have dealt with abnoxious
27 ULMFlyer : I wouldn't go that far. The true embarrassment is the legislation that allows the criminalization of air accidents, which is not the case is the US.
28 AA87 : Question to our airline pilots: putting aside whether, why, how, if the Legacy's TCAS was on or off or not working ..... isn't it plain common sense t
29 Baron95 : Well, level at FL370, in clear air, under positive radar/ATC control, over the Amazon forest with only 3 other planes reported on the same sector, I'm
30 Post contains images Speedbird128 : Perhaps the official (and that term 'official' used loosely) should close his mouth a little. It seems there are very few actual hard facts out there
31 LTBEWR : In this case, the Brazilian investigative authorities, the courts and prosecutors should grant immunity to the ATC personal to be able to get their co
32 AA87 : That's exactly my point. We now have 2 tragic cases (other being the Swiss midair a few years ago) proving that TCAS, even when functioning, is not a
33 Post contains links WSOY : A summary of the accident here, and more, of the recent cases. http://www.airaccidentdigest.com/123106.html
34 Baron95 : Agreed. That is not what they did though. They got blatantly fraudulend doctor notes - like school children do in the US. They should behaved profess
35 Baron95 : OK - I can go along with that, HOWEVER, you have to realize that scanning TCAS every few minutes would not have helped in this case, right? Lets do s
36 Baron95 : " target=_blank>http://www.airaccidentdigest.com/123....html Thank you for the link WSOY. I'd like to point out that there are some innacuracies on th
37 AA87 : That's the key here. Of course there was a tragic ATC error, but TCAS was supposed to be the safeguard. As to your response above -- and remember I h
38 Baron95 : I understand and agree 100% with your point on the TCAS scan. On most planes TCAS OFF will show up on the PFD (Primary Flight Display) or ND (Nvigati
39 Electech6299 : I'd hate to see several hundred people die due to a midair because the guidance is relaxed. There is no guarantee of "several seconds" of leeway- esp
40 AA87 : BTW, I know TCAS will not register a warning for non-TCAS equipped targets, but does such a target show on the TCAS display, like an unidentified targ
41 Baron95 : Agreed. Flight attendants in the galley handling hot foor with loose food carts all around them are at a siginificant risk of injury in CAT, TCAS RA
42 Baron95 : AA87, I'm not sure how you got this idea that a non-TCAS target will not display. If it has an active transponder and is withing range it will displa
43 AA87 : Thaks Baron, I meant issue an RA, not that it won't display non-TCAS targets. Anyway, in my mind your explanation of TCAS just reinforces my view it s
44 Post contains images Baron95 : Agreed, so long as the scan is look out the window, look out the window, look at TCAS screen, look out the window, look out the window, look at TCAS
45 Art : Perhaps I'm being ignorant, but why can't there be an audible warning when a new return appears on the screen?
46 Baron95 : Any new return? That would be extremely distracting. On approach on a busy terminal area you are likely to have a few returns on the scope. TA/RAs on
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