NASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3084 posts, RR: 5 Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10447 times:
Hopefully some of the flights to the Caribbean will be out of DTW.
Hi RichardPrice, I have serious doubts about this order being placed last year. If one is to take a look at the order spread sheet, it does not show any order for 30 x A319's.
Currently Airbus lists 3 undisclosed orders, with none matching with what was announced today.
29/12/2006 3x A319, 7x A320, 5x A332
28/12/2006 9x A319, 18x A320
07/12/2006 5x A320
It is for this reason that I suspect that this is indeed a new order. It may have been finalised late last year, but only signed now.
Flying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4111 posts, RR: 39 Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10361 times:
Per my understanding and German press reports it has been finalized in late 2006 but for accounting reasons it will be booked in 2007 only.
Now, before our American friends start dancing the one-legged limbo: so far we don´t know if this step was taken because Airbus wanted it this way, or because Spirit wanted it this way. It may well be the latter as they might only have to show this in the 2007 figures and not their 2006´s.
RichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10360 times:
Quoting WINGS (Reply 5):
Hi RichardPrice, I have serious doubts about this order being placed last year. If one is to take a look at the order spread sheet, it does not show any order for 30 x A319's.
The Airbus press release I linked to says it was finalised in 2006, its not my wording
Quote:
Spirit Airlines has placed a firm order for 30 A319s, bringing its total Airbus order to 44 (37 A319s and seven A321s). The deal was finalized in late 2006.
Quickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2464 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10363 times:
Good for them, but I thought their cash was tight right now. Those $9 fares must be a good loss leader.
RL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4537 posts, RR: 13 Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 9956 times:
Id love to see them bring back PVD-DTW, and then perhaps do something like
DTW-PVD-SJU/Carib
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
Osiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3182 posts, RR: 26 Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 9799 times:
Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 6): Now, before our American friends start dancing the one-legged limbo: so far we don´t know if this step was taken because Airbus wanted it this way, or because Spirit wanted it this way.
Wow.. are you really that out of touch.. Accounting is not based on whether someone 'wants it that way'. Account clearly defines when an order is an order and therefore should be booked.
Having said that if the paperwork wasn't signed until this year but the deal was agreed to in late 06, then it's a 2007 order. It's all about when pen met paper.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
Flying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4111 posts, RR: 39 Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 9707 times:
Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 15): Having said that if the paperwork wasn't signed until this year but the deal was agreed to in late 06, then it's a 2007 order. It's all about when pen met paper.
Jacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 61 Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 9688 times:
Quoting WINGS (Reply 11): Watch out Boeing, Airbus is coming back strong.
The more important part is there is a solid A330 (widebody) booking independent of the A380 situation..this is something which I like to see....lets hope Airbus could keep it up this year...
Osiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3182 posts, RR: 26 Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 9669 times:
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 19): The more important part is there is a solid A330 (widebody) booking independent of the A380 situation..this is something which I like to see....lets hope Airbus could keep it up this year...
and in small orders too, so the margin is good... these big 20+ plane orders usually carry a pretty significant discount and at the end of the day, given the problems Airbus is having with the Euro, probably hurt as much as they help Airbus.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
EvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9631 times:
Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 20): and in small orders too, so the margin is good... these big 20+ plane orders usually carry a pretty significant discount and at the end of the day,
But usually aren't these 5, 6, or 8 aircraft orders usually an airline exercising a portion of their options? Those options already have pricing set based on the original order no?
Flying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4111 posts, RR: 39 Reply 23, posted (6 years 4 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9558 times:
Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 20): these big 20+ plane orders usually carry a pretty significant discount and at the end of the day
OTOH these large unit orders allow the OEMs - be it Boeing, be it Airbus - to produce their planes in large quantities and drive down the amount of fixed costs which need to be attached to each frame produced. With only small orders you can only produce a small series - expensive. So you basically need some large orders to bring down production costs, but you want to have several smaller orders, which bring in the profit.
Osiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3182 posts, RR: 26 Reply 24, posted (6 years 4 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9502 times:
Quoting EvilForce (Reply 21): But usually aren't these 5, 6, or 8 aircraft orders usually an airline exercising a portion of their options? Those options already have pricing set based on the original order no?
No and not always. These 330F orders would be a good example. Additionally there are lots of 5-6-8 plane orders on both books that are not options. (748F and 380 for example).
Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 23): With only small orders you can only produce a small series - expensive.
?? 5 orders at 6 planes each is 30 planes.. 1 order at 30 planes is 30 planes..
The former has MUCH higher margins, even if you include the extra sales and legal costs. With the exception of the 380 most aircraft have a set number of options you can chose as a purchaser so extra costs are pretty much irrelevant.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
25 FlyCMH: I would love to know where Spirit plans on placing all these new airframes. I think it's safe to say more Caribbean expansion is on the way, but I was
26 PlaneHunter: I guess Airbus wouldn't prefer not getting such an order. PH
27 NADC10Fan: Grats all around on the Spirit Airbuses! I've taken some of those flights, and they're not bad, quite comfortable. Spirit Plus on a 'Bus was quite nic
28 Osiris30: Save the sarcasm PH and add some value. I never said Airbus would prefer to not get such an order. I was merely stating these big orders are closer t
29 Scbriml: In another thread Astuteman (I think) produced an in-depth analysis of both Airbus and Boeing's sales and profits and concluded that the margins on n
30 Osiris30: Saw that thread. Narrowbody margins are likely better than most here think. The problem is, again, like I said, the margins on these LARGER orders ar
31 PlaneHunter: The suggestion was "big orders probably hurt as much as they help"... ...which is an exaggerated statement. It's very likely Airbus makes a profit wi
32 MAH4546: They are working with FLL to expand and redesign Terminal 4, of which they will be the primary occupant. The T4 redesign is being designed for Spirit
33 Osiris30: Ya.. they do.. I stand by what I said.. bearing in my that what you read is a common 'saying' in this part of the world. If you want to take it liter
34 F9Animal: This is great news. This is a good sign that Spirit has confidence in its future. I have no doubt that they will be successful. I am glad to see them
35 ATCT: Any idea if they'll serve IAH/HOU? With the cruise market growing out of the Ports of Houston and Galveston, we could use some more service to the eas
36 PlaneHunter: In Barbados? Ah, I see...in other parts of the world it would probably be translated "if anything hurts as much as it helps, better keep your hands o
37 Corsair1107: wish they'd give US some competition on the DCA-MYR route. loads are probably nowhere near worth using an A319 though...
38 Mariner: Gelt ist gelt. A buck is a buck. Even if you are correct, that the profit margins are "sub-optimal", they're still a profit. ??? mariner
39 ScottB: From DoT's numbers, the loads have been running in the 60-75% range on NK's ATL-FLL. I'm not sure if I'd call that performing "exceptionally well," b
40 Osiris30: Yes, but they are now slots on the line taken away from potential more lucrative orders. I'm not debating Airbus made money on them.. all I said.. AL
42 Leelaw: If the profit's from this and other narrowbody sales transactions are indeed "sub-optimal," it amplifies rather than mitigates the larger looming pro
43 B6WNQX: Not to be rude but isn't this thread about Spirit ordering more planes and not how profitable Airbus is on selling narrowbodies? Back to the topic: Co
44 RL757PVD: It would be ncie if they could split the banks at FLL 1st bank = carib 2nd Bank = Evening/redeye latin AM This would allow for an entire latin am expa
45 Gbfra: It's all about the date you find on top of the contract. An outsider will never know if pen met paper before that date. I bet you haven't seen any of
46 Leelaw: It's doubtful you'll make-up for the earnings decline from higher margin widebody sales, by posting "sub-optimal" profits from much lower margin narr
47 EvilForce: Only on A.net can an order worth $ 1 billion be considered possible bad news for a manufacturer. Unbelievable.
48 Mariner: I'm confused - are you saying that Airbus should have walked away from the sale? If you are not saying that, then I can only agree with B6WNQX in pos
49 FlyCMH: Interesting information. Granted, 60-75% load factors aren't incredible, and with Delta, AirTran, and America West/USAirways being the dominant carri
50 MAH4546: Atlanta's excellent performance has been thanks to high-yielding connecting traffic to the Caribbean, not local traffic which is minimal and sold at
51 ScottB: Well, they already operate 25 A319's, so I wouldn't think that there would be THAT many destinations within the A319's range and outside the A321's.
52 Nkops: I'm glad to see we ordered more, I just hope our new business model works. Our yields do very well out of ACY, especially on the RSW and MYR (although
53 Gbfra: If you have basic knowledge in math: No! You're right, of course. But there are some people around here who believe that even the best of deals is a
54 Osiris30: Legally the pen should meet the paper on the date indicated on said paper No I haven't which is why I spoke in general terms and used words like 'lik
55 RichardPrice: Should it? I sign contracts all the time that are up to a few weeks out of sync with the date on them. This happens when one side signs, sends docume
56 Leelaw: I don't think my basic math or my class in Cost Accounting 201 have failed me.
57 FlyDreamliner: No kidding, right? There is a difference between airbus saying "the strong euro is hurting our bottom line" and "it's better for us not to sell airpl
58 Osiris30: Way back when, the date was suppose to be the date signed. I believe from an accounting said point there are still some guidelines. By the strictest
59 DTWAGENT: Nk must be planning on a large scale route expantion. With 30 A319s they could be going anywhere. Will just have to watch it all unfold in the next fe
60 PlanesNTrains: That's certainly a lot of expansion, though. They must really be comfortable trying to slip in under the rAdAr so to speak. I'm guessing some Central
61 PSU.DTW.SCE: Still wondering where FL, B6, WN, F9 and now NK plan on flying all of these new aircraft that they will take delivery of over the next few years. Ther
62 JetJeanes: Wow,I guess i underestimated,Spirit. I had was just thinking they would be another flop in the industry but They have surprised me. Does anyone know a
63 NADC10Fan: Ehrm ... a lot lacking, IMO, especially stacked up against a mainline flight. I flew that Delta Con ER to CMH, and the only thing positive to be said
64 MAH4546: FLL-SFO is a given within the next year to 18 months, if not sooner, IMO. They already fly DTW-SFO, seasonally. And with FLL-SFO, I bet DTW-SFO will
65 InTheSky74: I hope they can figure out a way to fix their problems in FLL first. As it is, the terminal gets extremely crowded and it makes you not want to fly th
66 Nkops: Still privately held for now. That makes two of us. At this point I will drive the 30 miles to PBI to fly home instead of having to go thru FLL, espe
67 KarlB737: Courtesy: The Detroit News Spirit Doubles Fleet, Wants To Grow In Detroit http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...e?AID=/20070124/BIZ/701240329/1001
68 EvilForce: This just goes to show the folly in even trying to placate noob flyers that fly once or twice a year. They can pay $ 8 for a flight and complain abou
69 JetBlueAUS: Interesting... looks like those 1-5 cent fares are bringing in the big bucks.
71 MAH4546: Why on earth would they care? Spirit starts FLL-LAX shortly, even though jetBlue flies FLL-LGB. FLL-SFO is a given, it is coming.
72 PlanesNTrains: Thanks for the insight. You're one of those people that a lot of us would love to corner in an airport lounge and quiz for hours. -Dave
73 InTheSky74: I wonder if you'll see JetBlue move their FLL-OAK service to SFO since they are starting service in SFO soon. Although I think Spirit is going after c
74 MAH4546: No, you won't. Oakland is a key focus city for jetBlue, as is FLL. All six of jetBlue's focus cities are connected to each other, and that won't be c
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and in small orders too, so the margin is good... these big 20+ plane orders usually carry a pretty significant discount and at the end of the day, given the problems Airbus is having with the Euro, probably hurt as much as they help Airbus.
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