BCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 18 Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8905 times:
Quoting OA260 (Reply 1): What was the official report/cause?
Quote: PROBABLE CAUSE: "The commission concluded that the most likely hypothesis was the following: a) The pilot-in-command, who knew on leaving Beirut that one of the VORs was unserviceable, miscalculated his position in relation to Mont Blanc and reported his own estimate of this position to the controller; the radar controller noted the error, determined the position of the aircraft correctly and passed a communication to the aircraft which, he believed, would enable it to correct its position.; b) For want of a sufficiently precise phraseology, the correction was mis-understood by the pilot who, under the mistaken impression that he had passed the ridge leading to the summit and was still at a flight level which afforded sufficient safety clearance over the top of Mont Blanc, continued his descent."
Cumulus From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 1402 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8877 times:
Quoting BCAL (Reply 2): The registration of the aircraft was VT-DMN. The aircraft in the above photo is VT-DNZ
I know, couldn't find a pic though!!! Looks the same!
Quote from BBC as per link (same as above roughly!):-
It is believed the most probable cause of the crash was that the pilot miscalculated his position as he was flying over Mont Blanc.
The radar controller picked up on the pilot's error and radioed back to ensure that he had corrected his position.
Unfortunately the correction was misunderstood by the captain who continued his descent after mistakenly thinking that he had passed the ridge leading to the summit.
What Goes Up Must Come Down, Hopefully In One Piece!
Gamps From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 469 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 8825 times:
One of the victims included chairman of the Indian Atomic Energy Commission Dr Homi Jehangir Bhabha, who was on his way to Vienna.
There are still some conspiracy theories about this crash - considering it carried Indian nuclear scientist considered "father of India's nuclear program".
Very unlikely that it was a language problem...AI pilots have always been well conversant in English....unless it was an ATC controller speaking French/German....
BCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 18 Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 8699 times:
Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 6): Very unlikely that it was a language problem...AI pilots have always been well conversant in English....unless it was an ATC controller speaking French/German....
Who knows exactly what happened?
The pilot, knowing the VOR was not in service, duly reported his position to ATC.
The ATC noted an error in position from the radar and informed the pilot of his correct position.
The correction was mis-understood by the pilot who, under the mistaken impression that he had passed the ridge leading to the summit and was still at a flight level which afforded sufficient safety clearance over the top of Mont Blanc, continued his descent.
The correction was misunderstood by the pilot. We will never know exactly why the pilot misunderstand the controller, but I think language/communication problem is the only way to cover all possibilities. I have never heard a transcript of tapes, and for all I know the pilot and ATC might have been conversing in a language other than English, or perhaps even there was a break in the communication from ATC to the pilot.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
Gr8Circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 2986 posts, RR: 5 Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8638 times:
Quoting BCAL (Reply 8): The correction was misunderstood by the pilot. We will never know exactly why the pilot misunderstand the controller, but I think language/communication problem is the only way to cover all possibilities. I have never heard a transcript of tapes, and for all I know the pilot and ATC might have been conversing in a language other than English, or perhaps even there was a break in the communication from ATC to the pilot.
No offense, I understand what you are saying.....just want to correct the automatic impression that prevails about non-Euro / American pilots - that there is room for language problem.....only pointing out that in the case of Indian pilots, even back in the 60's, English was never a problem.....yes, communication, such as lack of interpreting the ATC instructions could always be a possibility....as you said, we'll never know.....
Jaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8628 times:
If you visit Chamonix, there is a small museum in which remnants of both the Air India Connie and the Boeing 707 are housed. This wreckage which includes the wheel of the Connie and cabin panels and an engine fan blade of the 707 are disgorged each year by the glaciers that move down Mont Blanc.
The museum also has a great amount of information about both crashes although the information is all in French, so at least a rudimentary grasp of the language is necessary. Apparently, the AI 707 slammed into a ridge on the north face of Mont Blanc at over 400 knots. Also, it was determined that had the 707 been 40 feet higher than it was at the time, the accident could have been avoided.
No conspiracy was found. This was purely a case of miscommunication between the GVA tower and the AI 707. Apparently, the tower thought that the 707 had already crossed the ridge when it asked it to descend.
Gr8Circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 2986 posts, RR: 5 Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8626 times:
Quoting Jaysit (Reply 10): No conspiracy was found. This was purely a case of miscommunication between the GVA tower and the AI 707. Apparently, the tower thought that the 707 had already crossed the ridge when it asked it to descend.
So much so for language issues.....
BTW, my dad flew on the same flight (different aircraft of course), exactly one week before this sad incident....
ImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1230 posts, RR: 14 Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8607 times:
AI also had the bad luck to lose a Connie--------in almost the exact same spot!
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
Vanguard From Solomon Islands, joined Feb 2004, 95 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8599 times:
I think one of these crashes featured in the book I studied at A-Level - "La neige en deuil' (The snow in mourning).................. can anyone confirm?
COEWR787 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 305 posts, RR: 4 Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8380 times:
Quote: 117 Die In Air India 707 Crash 31 Years Ago Today.
Just to state the obvious, the crash was 41 years ago in 1966, not 31 years ago!
Quoting BCAL (Reply 2): The registration of the aircraft was VT-DMN. The aircraft in the above photo is VT-DNZ
Yep, and the name of the aircraft was "Kanchanjungha"
Jaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8355 times:
The Kanchenjunga (which incidentally is the world's 3rd highest mountain) was also the 707 that took Jackie Kennedy to India back in 1962. Makes for some interesting reading.
OB1783P From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 325 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8332 times:
Quoting Vanguard (Reply 13): I think one of these crashes featured in the book I studied at A-Level - "La neige en deuil' (The snow in mourning).................. can anyone confirm?
Hi Vanguard: you're absolutely right. Your French teacher would be proud. La Neige en Deuil is a French novel by Henry Troyat about two brothers who climb up a mountain to find a wrecked Indian airliner. The older brother thinks rescue, the younger one thinks loot. It's a good old fashioned novel. The book predates the 707 crash by a few years. It was probably inspired by the Connie crash. If I remember it right, it's quite sad: they find only a beautiful girl barely alive, wearing a diaphanous sari, and she dies on the way down.
There is a movie of it: THE MOUNTAIN, with Spencer Tracy and Robert Wagner, with a thirty year age difference, as the brothers. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049523/
I've flown thousands of miles and I can tell you it's a lot safer than crossing the street!
CBPhoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1506 posts, RR: 6 Reply 17, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 8164 times:
I remember my Grandfather telling me he how he was at the crash scene of the 707 just after it happened as one of the representatives from AI. At the time he was a senior 707 Captain for AI. It was a very sad moment for him, as he lost some good friends on that flight and to think, it was 41 years ago today!!
WA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2037 posts, RR: 13 Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7967 times:
Quoting Jaysit (Reply 10): If you visit Chamonix, there is a small museum in which remnants of both the Air India Connie and the Boeing 707 are housed. This wreckage which includes the wheel of the Connie and cabin panels and an engine fan blade of the 707 are disgorged each year by the glaciers that move down Mont Blanc.
The museum also has a great amount of information about both crashes although the information is all in French, so at least a rudimentary grasp of the language is necessary. Apparently, the AI 707 slammed into a ridge on the north face of Mont Blanc at over 400 knots. Also, it was determined that had the 707 been 40 feet higher than it was at the time, the accident could have been avoided.
No conspiracy was found. This was purely a case of miscommunication between the GVA tower and the AI 707. Apparently, the tower thought that the 707 had already crossed the ridge when it asked it to descend.
There's a great article about this museum, and the two crashes, in the April, 2005 issue of Airways. The article includes directions to the museum from Chamonix; the museum is only open in the summer.
If I ever make it back to GVA, I'd really like to visit the museum!
IRISHMD11 From Switzerland, joined Jan 2004, 88 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7900 times:
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 18):
There's a great article about this museum, and the two crashes, in the April, 2005 issue of Airways. The article includes directions to the museum from Chamonix; the museum is only open in the summer.
If I ever make it back to GVA, I'd really like to visit the museum!
If you make this far buddy, then we'll go for a day trip, agreed?
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