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New Large Jet Study By ANA: 777 Or 380  
User currently offlineJimyvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 11440 times:

Japan's Wing Daily on 25JAN07 reports ANA is studying the new large jet order for the future, as the airline has chosen 737 for new small jet, 787 for new medium-haul jet.

The new large capacity jet will be replacing the 747s. The 777 and 380 are the candidates that the airline is studying.

Quote:
 全日空大型機、A380やB777統一など視野に検討
 航空運送事業各社、今後の機材計画動向

 国内航空各社は今後の機材計画について、自社で公表したり、航空分科会で説明し
ているが、大手エアラインの日本航空、全日空ともに機材統合によるコストの縮減を
図っている。老朽化しているB747型機の退役により、中・小型機の比率を高め、機材
のダウンサイジングを促進している。両社は機材機種の統一化、燃料効率の良い
B787型機を大幅に増やすことにしているが、全日空ではA380型の導入も視野に検討し
ている。山元社長が航空分科会で言及した。


67 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 11447 times:

They are not looking at the 748?

User currently offlineJimyvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 11436 times:

Quoting EI321 (Reply 1):
They are not looking at the 748?

The airline didn't express it's interest in 747-8I


User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 11399 times:

Not good news for the 748 if true.

User currently offlineAerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2749 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 11374 times:

This is bizarre - ANA made a big deal of it's 3-type fleet strategy just last year. I remember the PR - 73G, 787s and 777s. That was it. Are they just humouring Airbus or has that much changed in the past twelve months?

User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 11357 times:

Whats the breakdown of their 747 fleet and what routes are they on?

User currently offlineKorg747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 549 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 11342 times:

I think airbus will welcome ANA as an A380 customer and I'm pretty sure they will offer ANA a deal they can't refuse. The point is, The A380's public image will be boosted with a new order from a new customer and at the same time, ANA can and will probably get a really cheap deal on the A380 because airbus is most likely desperate for new customers right now.


Please excuse my English!
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 11304 times:

If ANA swaps aircraft between domestic and international routes like JAL has a tendency to do, the A380 option is dead in the water from the get go. Unless that is, ANA finds a way to winkle four engine jets into high volume domestic airports that have passed two engine restrictions.

User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 11269 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 7):
ANA finds a way to winkle four engine jets into high volume domestic airports that have passed two engine restrictions.

Which airports have? Obviously the 380 would only replace 747s so that rule would not apply.

[Edited 2007-01-25 04:14:56]

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31437 posts, RR: 85
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 11234 times:
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Quoting EI321 (Reply 5):
Whats the breakdown of their 747 fleet and what routes are they on?

Their international 744 fleet does or used to fly NRT-CDG/FRA/LHR/JFK. Those flights are all transitioning to 773ERs to my knowledge. NRT-SFO and NRT-LAX have been up-gauged from 777-200ERs to 777-300ERs.

With NH moving from the 744 to the 773ER, I can see that if they have any interest at all in something larger then a 773ER, it would be the A388. If they wanted to stay with the 747, they would have expressed interest in the 747-X or 747-Advanced programs, and they did not.

That being said, I expect the chances of NH staying with the 773ER are far greater then them moving to the A388.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 8):
Which airports have?

Our Japanese members have mentioned them, but I didn't make a list. But it is one of the reasons that drove JL and NH to the 773A and now the 787-3 for domestic ops.

[Edited 2007-01-25 04:16:56]

User currently offlineAcey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1545 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 11213 times:

It seems that the 777 would make sense because of fleet commonality, but do they really need the extra capacity. There is a fairly large gap between the 777 and A380. Did they say which variant they were looking at? I think I heard somewhere that an airline crammed almost 500 seats in a 777-300, which would put it close to the 380, depending on how they configure it.

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31437 posts, RR: 85
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 11179 times:
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Quoting Acey559 (Reply 10):
I think I heard somewhere that an airline crammed almost 500 seats in a 777-300.

Boeing gives a 525-seat single-class config, but NH does have 18 F seats in their domestic 777-300As so I imagine the Economy section is around 450 or so, but I never bothered to count.  Smile


User currently offlineAcey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1545 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 11121 times:

Yikes is about all I can say  Wow!. If they chose the 777, would they use such a high density seating arrangement, or would they use something more practical? And if they chose the A380, would they use a less dense arrangement or would they use a high density arrangement? Also, where will the airplanes be flying to, international or domestic or both?

User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2980 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 11061 times:

The issue of A380 on domestic is non-sense. It's new HND terminal for NH is not A380 capable (or restricts severe penalties on adjacent gates). Therefore passengers must be bussed to/from the terminal like when the int'l 744s are used on domestic runs.

Still it is surprising that the 748 is not included in the study but either NH wants to significantly increase the number of pax or stay with the 773ER for the int'l flagship.

The current 744 fleet flies scheduled on NRT-LHR/CDG/FRA/HKG only.

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 10):
think I heard somewhere that an airline crammed almost 500 seats in a 777-300

NH has 524 seats (F21Y503) on its domestic 773s.


User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 11029 times:

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 13):
NH has 524 seats (F21Y503) on its domestic 773s.

WOW.......I didn't think that was possible.


User currently offlineORDRyan28 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 988 posts, RR: 16
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 10921 times:

Quoting EI321 (Reply 1):
They are not looking at the 748?

I thought they'd be looking into them, also..  Confused



Whoever said winning is not everything never fought cancer.
User currently offlineFlying_727 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 440 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 10896 times:

Quoting Juventus (Reply 14):
Quoting Carpethead (Reply 13):
NH has 524 seats (F21Y503) on its domestic 773s.

WOW.......I didn't think that was possible.

The Boeing seat map used for planning purposes on the Boeing website actually shows up to 550 economy seats at a 30in pitch.

flying_727



On ATA, You're On Vacation
User currently offlineIloveboeing From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 803 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 10883 times:

I think the 773ER would be a great choice for ANA's flagship. It is cheaper to operate than the A380 and would just make more sense, having two engines, instead of four.

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31437 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 10885 times:
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Quoting Acey559 (Reply 12):
If they chose the 777, would they use such a high density seating arrangement, or would they use something more practical?

NH currently flies the 773ER on international routes with a 8F/77C/24Y+/132Y configuration.  Smile


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1001 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 10870 times:

Let's face it: Airbus needs ANA to order the A380 more than ANA needs the A380. Between the 777LR and the 787, they have the potential for virtually the same revenues that could be obtained from even larger aircraft. If larger aircraft are needed, the 747-8I offers increased capacity with more flexibility and lower investment risk.

It's not about moving the most people between Point A and Point B. It's about making the most profit moving whatever number of passengers leads to maximum yield.



User currently offlineWingedMigrator From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2260 posts, RR: 56
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 10839 times:

Quoting Korg747 (Reply 6):
I think airbus will welcome ANA as an A380 customer and I'm pretty sure they will offer ANA a deal they can't refuse.

This whole thing really doesn't fit the usual a.net story line. Especially since all the A330s usually thrown in 'for free' to grease the A380 giveaways wouldn't have a place in ANA's fleet  rotfl 


User currently onlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 10760 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
Their international 744 fleet does or used to fly NRT-CDG/FRA/LHR/JFK. Those flights are all transitioning to 773ERs to my knowledge. NRT-SFO and NRT-LAX have been up-gauged from 777-200ERs to 777-300ERs.

NH still occasionally brings the B772-ER into SFO...as I took this photo last Sunday (21.01.07)  bigthumbsup 



,,,but for the most part, you are correct, NH brings in the B773ER to SFO...



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8483 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 10727 times:

Quoting Korg747 (Reply 6):
I think airbus will welcome ANA as an A380 customer and I'm pretty sure they will offer ANA a deal they can't refuse.

It would seem that at some point Airbus needs to get some very good margins on the 380 if they are to break even in the 400 frame range. With all of the costs associated with the delays I would be surprised if Airbus will be able to profitably give anyone a deal they can't refuse.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8298 posts, RR: 26
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 10647 times:

Currently Osaka Itami (ITM) is the key Japanese domestic airport that has outlawed three and four engined aircraft. Kagoshima and Hakodate have as well. Fukuoka has proposed it but they haven't passed anything yet as both Japanese majors still bring 747s into that airport.

ANA is seeking to enhance its efforts to establish itself as the marquee international carrier here and will likely stick with the 773ER with a split fleet - one in the existing high premium, low density configuration, and another without.

The domestic 773s are in another boat and preclude NH from having to use the international birds on anything other than overnights for fleet utilization purposes.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 7007 posts, RR: 63
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 10636 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 23):
Currently Osaka Itami (ITM) is the key Japanese domestic airport that has outlawed three and four engined aircraft. Kagoshima and Hakodate have as well. Fukuoka has proposed it but they haven't passed anything yet as both Japanese majors still bring 747s into that airport.

Why do they do it? I use Hiroshima and loads of flights in and out are on 747s. What's the problem with four engines?

As for the A380, it doesn't seem likely to me but you never know. Put it this way, SQ and QF (to name just two Asia-Pacific carriers) seem to think the A380 is a good bet for long-haul trunk routes. Why wouldn't ANA? Moreover, AF and LH will be flying A380s into NRT sooner or later (let's see when they're delivered) and ANA just might feel they need to match them. To be honest, I really don't know but it's an intriguing rumour.

Stranger things have happened.


25 Aaron747 : In some cases it's noise, in others emissions requirements. Proponents argue that three and four engine aircraft produce excessive amounts of pollutio
26 MBJ2000 : Speaking of noise, isn't the A380 supposed to be one of the quietest airliners around?
27 Post contains images Astuteman : Which will presumably tell you something about any deals they actually do..... Regards
28 Post contains links Columba : Interesting last year they have said that they are leaving the door open to a future acquisition of the Airbus A380, despite the fact that they aimsto
29 Post contains images TinkerBelle : With your username, I'd take your comment with a grain of salt. Your 1.2 megapixel camera is perfoming miracles I see..lol. Seriously, nice pic and n
30 EvilForce : Doesn't make a lot of sense does it? Which would I rather have...a two engined 777 that is louder and carries a lot less people so would need more fl
31 Helvknight : But since when have NIMBYs thought logically?
32 EvilForce : Touche.
33 FCKC : Do we know when NH will made their choice ?
34 Post contains links JumboForever : I took buses at HND countless of times when I flew on 773 too. The 744 can also use gates. Anyway you're right the A380 would almost exclusively be p
35 Keesje : I think the timescale you are talking is short. From LHR, FRA, CDG, SIN, MEL and other places ANA will probably face direct competitive A380 flights
36 Art : I find it strange that the replacements considered should be lower capacity and higher capacity aircraft. I would have thought that the candidates to
37 ZKNBX : And what.. you are, I take it, some expert on all the facts behind ANA'S decision...? Give me a break... of couse Airbus will present ANA with a "dea
38 PM : Think about it. Airlines operate airliners for at least ten and often twenty or thirty years. Once they have bought them it may be cheaper to misuse
39 FriendlySkies : In all honesty...they're probably just "looking" at the A380 to get a cheaper rate on 777s...Boeing won't want one of it's most loyal customers defect
40 Centrair : I am surprised the 748i is not in the running here. Wish it were. Seems like a good plane for very long term planning. (buy as a pax plane...later con
41 SEPilot : On the other hand, they may be like the farmer who was told by his farmhand that it cost $20 in feed to raise a pig that sold for $15, "Well then, we
42 Aaron747 : Not speaking authoritatively, just going off of what a few friends inside the company have said with regard to things from the grapevine. "Although it
43 Mush : Well, if an airline was willing to stuff a B777 to the gills by putting 500 seats in it, why would they not do the same thing (stuff it to the gills)
44 Jfk777 : ANA switched JFK to a 773ER in May of 2005. All US destinations are now 777's, Europe still gets 744's. An ANA A380 seems too much, can they fill 475
45 JumboForever : ANA doesn't fly to SYD/MEL and IIRC QF never stated their A380 was going to fly to NRT, at least at first. SQ will probably send 2 A380 a day for SQ1
46 Post contains images Jacobin777 : It was a 1.6 megapixel camera..lets get that straight... Seriously though, you should stay at your adopted airport of LAX..lol! Hmmm...intersesting..
47 Astuteman : Presumably anywhere up to 853 seats....... Regards
48 Post contains images SeJoWa : Interesting tidbit of information concerning ANA's considerations for 747 replacements. Quoted from FI: "ANA operates a fleet of 23 Boeing 747-400s
49 Aaron747 : That's true in part, but whatever the reason, nothing is going to help KIX get more domestic traffic anytime soon. ITM is here to stay, without 4-eng
50 NA : In ANAs longterm plan I´ve seen (published in several different media) the field Future large aircraft was left blank, the 773ER was just the medium
51 EvilForce : It seems odd anyone would fly from Tokyo to Osaka seeing it's what? 2 1/2 hours via the Nozumi trains?
52 Post contains images Airbazar : Ah, but it makes a lot of sense when you look at where Boeing's 777 manufacturing partners are located
53 Post contains images Keesje : taking a closer look at ANA Boeing 747-400, it becomes apparent they have a very low seat density. 287-Seats and 323-Seats. Still there is the 7 abrea
54 Post contains images AutoThrust : IMO this wont happen, just an announcment to make pressure on Boeing. Though the A380 would give the passangers much more comfort then on the 748 or 7
55 Aaron747 : The hidden factor too many people ignore is that in terms of premium service ANA is really only competing with JAL. High end Japanese travelers are st
56 Mush : Fair enough...but barring any outcry from the flying public I doubt the airlines would suddenly change their thinking. thanks
57 Post contains links and images Aaron747 : Probably not Mush, but they have sought to make the cabins more pleasant of late. View Large View MediumPhoto © YK View Large View MediumPhoto &c
58 Stitch : Yes, but most of them will not be non-stop flights. SQ will not fly LHR-NRT, but LHR-SIN-NRT (and that assumes they fly A388s on the SIN-NRT leg and
59 Post contains images Ardian : What are the differing philosophies from JAL and ANA and how is ANA trying to differentiate from the other Star Alliance partners? I would definitely
60 DfwRevolution : You are being very childish. I am not talking about the inner-workings of ANA, but rather basic principles of economics that are transparent to the e
61 Keesje : I don't thinkl the 747-100, 767-200 and 777-200 were upgraded after 12 yrs. 40% of orders required for break-even before IES doesn't seem to bad for
62 Post contains images Gr8Circle : I think Airbus will welcome any airline that cares to consider the A380....
63 Art : Thank you. You have just explained to me why the 748-I was not mentioned. It sounds like the only aircraft in their sights is the 777 but if they can
64 DfwRevolution : Yes, they were. The 747 featured much more incremental upgrade than other Boeing models but the trend is quite clear with recent generation aircraft:
65 Post contains links Jacobin777 : According to the thread (and post) below..NH will be bringing the B773ER into SFO daily from mix mode 772ER/773ER... ANA 2007 Operation: 737-700ER NR
66 JumboForever : Which is exactly what I wrote previously. Regards,
67 Carpethead : FI or some source needs to get its facts straight. NH operates 13 744Ds and 10 744s. Minimum of two 744s are leaving this year.
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