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Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea  
User currently offlineN1786b From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 559 posts, RR: 17
Posted (7 years 7 months 14 hours ago) and read 16869 times:

Of interest:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Thai Airways to Talk With Airbus on Ordering 12 A330s

By Anuchit Nguyen

Jan. 25 (Bloomberg) -- Thai Airways International Pcl, Southeast Asia's second-biggest carrier by market value, said it plans talks tomorrow with Airbus SAS on a possible order of as many as 12 A330 airliners.

The carrier was offered the planes at $90 million each, a discount of as much as 10 percent, as part of Airbus's compensation for delays in delivering six A380 aircraft, Thai Airways Chairman Chalit Pukbhasuk told reporters today after a nine-hour board meeting in Bangkok.

''We want to get the largest discount for the new aircraft as possible because the delay of the A380s has significantly hurt our business expansion plan,'' Chalit said. ''The talks will also focus on the deposit of about $80 million that Thai Airways already paid for the six A380s on order.''

....

List Prices

The 253- to 335-seat A330 lists for $165 million to $182.8 million a plane. The list price doesn't take account of discounts that airlines usually receive for large orders.

Thai Airways President Apinan Sumanaseni said in an interview that the airline had already been offered the aircraft at $100 million before the additional 10 percent discount.

End extract.

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news...=conews&tkr=BA:US&sid=aEaQZZwC3jMI


Not bad - good info here - $80m deposit for 6 A380s.

And $90M for a A330 - talk about a discount!

- n1786b

95 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30884 posts, RR: 86
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 14 hours ago) and read 16821 times:
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Sumanaseni should fight harder. Pegasus is said to have gotten their A332Fs for around $75 million a piece.  Smile


Seriously, aircraft valuation firm Avitas says A330s went out the door for around $94 million on average in 2006, so $90 million strikes me as believable.


User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4316 posts, RR: 28
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 16705 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
aircraft valuation firm Avitas says A330s went out the door for around $94 million on average in 2006, so $90 million strikes me as believable.

Wow, that is a real lack of pricing power for Airbus. That has got to hurt A350 sales. Why would anyone fork over a lot of money for a next-gen aircraft, regardless of its efficiencies, when a current-gen, which is already pretty efficient, can be had for so cheap?



I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently onlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2253 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 16695 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
Pegasus is said to have gotten their A332Fs for around $75 million a piece.

Probably without engines.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
Seriously, aircraft valuation firm Avitas says A330s went out the door for around $94 million on average in 2006, so $90 million strikes me as believable.

Most A330s sold last year were the A332, but TG will probably get the A333. So 90 million for an A333 is really a good price if the average A330 goes for 94 million.



Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently offlineEvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 16625 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 2):
Wow, that is a real lack of pricing power for Airbus.

No it's not. The 767 sells for approx. $ 15 million less than the A330. It's what the things cost.


User currently offlinePolymerPlane From United States of America, joined May 2006, 991 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 16556 times:

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 4):

Considering that 767 is a much older airplane and the list price is already lower than A330 by $15M to 25$M, I would say A330 is now on a big sale.

Cheers,
PP



One day there will be 100% polymer plane
User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10000 posts, RR: 96
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 16553 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 2):
Wow, that is a real lack of pricing power for Airbus

I don't actually think that's the case at all.

According to the Avitas information, the average "discount" from list for ALL aircraft, from both manufacturers, was 40% last year (39% for Boeing, and 41% for Airbus).
As both manufacturers currently operate on c.10% operating margins (pre-exceptionals - like A380 stuff-ups...), it begs the question "what does the "discounted price" actually relate to, as compared to the list price (i.e., are engines included, are the OEM's discounting the front-end heavily, but then loading in extras or long-term support contracts on extremely good terms...)

As Stitch said, Avitas quote $94m average for A330's, so the original $100m ask sounds like "good" terms (in as much as they're better than average). If the $10m reduction is part of the A380 compensation, it still doesn't sound like a particularly bad deal.

Boeing are only making fractionally smaller discounts, according to Avitas.

Regards


User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4316 posts, RR: 28
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 16512 times:

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 4):
No it's not. The 767 sells for approx. $ 15 million less than the A330.

Somehow I can't see the 767, an almost 30 year old design whose civilian production has for all intents and purposes run its course, eating into sales of the 787. Boeing has pushed the trickle of recent civilian orders just to keep the line open long enough to land the USAF tanker contract.



I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlineEvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 16460 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 7):
Somehow I can't see the 767, an almost 30 year old design whose civilian production has for all intents and purposes run its course, eating into sales of the 787.

Nor will A330's eat into A350 sales. Airbus will continue making A330's at reasonable profits until the A350 line is up and running. The 777 and A330 are selling quite well still because the 787 and 350 aren't available until 2014'ish for any new orders. That's a lifetime away.


User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 16460 times:

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 4):
No it's not. The 767 sells for approx. $ 15 million less than the A330. It's what the things cost.

But the A330 is in high demand, so Airbus should be able to command better prices than Boeing with its 767 offering that few want.

$90M - nice!


User currently offlineEvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 16435 times:

Quoting Khobar (Reply 9):
so Airbus should be able to command better prices than Boeing with its 767 offering that few want.

And they are. It's a superior aircraft, hence why they can get another $15 million or more for them.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30884 posts, RR: 86
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 16361 times:
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Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 2):
Wow, that is a real lack of pricing power for Airbus.

As Astuteman noted, Avitas calculated the following discounts:

717 - 37%
737 - 35%
767 - 41%
777 - 41%
747 - 40%

A320 - 38%
A330 - 43%
A340 - 45%

Avitas did not list a 787 discount, but Teal Group calculated a 25% average discount for the 787 in 2005.

Quote:
That has got to hurt A350 sales. Why would anyone fork over a lot of money for a next-gen aircraft, regardless of its efficiencies, when a current-gen, which is already pretty efficient, can be had for so cheap?

Chances are you'll save more in operating costs on the new plane then you would in the purchase price of the older one.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 3):
(the $75 million price is) probably without engines.

If list prices are calculated with engines (and I believe they are), then so should the prices Avitas calculates.


User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4316 posts, RR: 28
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 16328 times:

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 8):
Nor will A330's eat into A350 sales.

How do you know? How much is Airbus selling the A350 for, including any discounts?



I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30884 posts, RR: 86
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 16306 times:
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Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 12):
How much is Airbus selling the A350 for, including any discounts?

Based on Teal Group's 2005 report, the projected average list price of the A350 (not A350XWB) was $171 million with a projected average sale price of $116 million for a 32% discount.


User currently offlineCobra27 From Slovenia, joined May 2001, 1011 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 16250 times:

Those list price are on average 30-40% over real prices.

User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 12 hours ago) and read 16015 times:

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 10):
And they are. It's a superior aircraft, hence why they can get another $15 million or more for them.

767 already lists for $15M-$25M less than A330, as PolymerPlane pointed out. If, as you contend, Airbus can only get $15M more than a 767 that costs $15M-$25M less to begin with, that doesn't speak highly of the A330 at all. And Avitas confirms that Airbus offers bigger discounts on the A330 than Boeing does on the 767. Interesting, very interesting.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 11 hours ago) and read 15879 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 2):
That has got to hurt A350 sales.



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 8):
Nor will A330's eat into A350 sales. Airbus will continue making A330's at reasonable profits until the A350 line is up and running. T

We'll just have to see how this shakes out. Airlines getting A330s in 2008-2009 won't be in any hurry to replace them, even if the A350 offers better operating economics.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 11 hours ago) and read 15691 times:

Quoting Khobar (Reply 9):
But the A330 is in high demand, so Airbus should be able to command better prices than Boeing with its 767 offering that few want.

It's probably in high demand because Airbus are lowering the prices. And they can afford to, the A330 has broken even and they can milk it to high heaven and still make money, just like they've done with the A320.

Whether it will encroach though on the A350 is and important point. Certainly flogging A330's to airlines like NW, QF and SQ isn't really a problem as they have already selected the 787. Also a lot of these airlines will simply sell the A330 relatively early in its life and take advantage of its high residual value. Then move onto the next generation of aircraft.


User currently offlineShenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1710 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 10 hours ago) and read 15612 times:

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 17):
It's probably in high demand because Airbus are lowering the prices. And they can afford to, the A330 has broken even and they can milk it to high heaven and still make money, just like they've done with the A320.

Whether it will encroach though on the A350 is and important point. Certainly flogging A330's to airlines like NW, QF and SQ isn't really a problem as they have already selected the 787. Also a lot of these airlines will simply sell the A330 relatively early in its life and take advantage of its high residual value. Then move onto the next generation of aircraft.

Unfortunately, with the 787 having sold 450 +/- frames, Boeing are probably now in the same position with the 787 as Airbus with their A330 and A320. Wonder if this will have an adverse effect on A350 pricing, which still needs to recoup the 15 billion dollar investment and no firm orders.

Cheers


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30884 posts, RR: 86
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 9 hours ago) and read 15468 times:
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Quoting RJ111 (Reply 17):
It's probably in high demand because Airbus are lowering the prices. And they can afford to, the A330 has broken even and they can milk it to high heaven and still make money, just like they've done with the A320.

And I imagine that as the A350XWB prepares to enter service, Boeing will start to cut 777 prices harder and that family could experience it's own order boost.


User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4769 posts, RR: 43
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 9 hours ago) and read 15340 times:

$ 90 million seems to be a discounted price for an A 332 and not an A 333 of which TG fly many.

I would recommend TG getting the A 332s instead of the A 333s as that the extra flying range of the A 332 will allow it to launch low density long haul routes nonstop from Bangkok to Europe such as BRU/DME/TXL & the Middle East such as CAI, RUH, AMM & IKA. All these routes have the perfect market in the A 332 size category i.e. 2 class configured 230-240 seater aircraft.


User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 8 hours ago) and read 15188 times:

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 17):
It's probably in high demand because Airbus are lowering the prices. And they can afford to, the A330 has broken even and they can milk it to high heaven and still make money, just like they've done with the A320.

Airbus made a loss last year. Normally that would have some impact on deep discounts for a high-demand product that has no real competition.

What you're suggesting is one of the most hotly denied arguments of most A vs B, err, discussions. So, surely you jest, yes?


User currently offlineBN727 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 83 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 8 hours ago) and read 15101 times:

Is it me or has the price of new Airplanes over the last 25 years exceeded inflation by a global 100.000 miles..B747 in 1973 at 25 million...God knows what they are now..A330 at 90 million today. I'll bet they were half that 10 years ago. Are airframe manufactures gouging like the oil companies have been?

User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 8 hours ago) and read 15044 times:

Again good news for a fantastic aircraft. The A330 is giving every other widebody a run for its money this month.

At a listprice of US$165 million and a production cost equal to approximately 40% (that would exclude the engines) of the listprice, US$90 million doesn't strike me as unreasonable, also consider that compensation payments are included aswell. After all is said and done it seems that Airbus will still be able to make a profit of about US$10 million on each A330, despite the compensation payments.

I also seem to remember that the A333 is actually cheaper then the A332. Can anyone confirm?

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 20):
I would recommend TG getting the A 332s instead of the A 333s as that the extra flying range of the A 332 will allow it to launch low density long haul routes nonstop from Bangkok to Europe such as BRU/DME/TXL & the Middle East such as CAI, RUH, AMM & IKA.

I like the sound of it. Especially BRU as a future TG destination.



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User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30884 posts, RR: 86
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 7 hours ago) and read 14238 times:
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Quoting Manni (Reply 23):
I also seem to remember that the A333 is actually cheaper then the A332. Can anyone confirm?

As per Airbus' last price hike:

A330-200: 159.8-168.9 million USD
A330-300: 177.9-187.6 million USD


25 Manni : Thanks Stitch. So I recalled it wrong. Where did you find these numbers? The price of the A333 seems rather high IMO (I'm not doubting the figures po
26 Stitch : It's an industry trade called Access Intelligence. They have an aircraft valuation section which has a lot of neat information. I don't subscribe (it
27 Rwessel : Well, I have the 1967 list price for a 747-100 as $24M. From 1967 to 2006, the U.S. CPI has increased by about a factor of 6.04, which would imply a
28 Post contains links and images Manni : Very interesting. It's a pitty Airbus doesn't post it on her website. Here's another link to the story. http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070126/thailand_airbu
29 Lumberton : Has there been confirmation that UPS canceled? Airbus denied it and UPS was quoted as saying that they were still in discussion. FEDEX however....
30 Manni : Sorry Lumberton, I'm wrong, I was reffering to the FedEx cancellation. The French newspaper Les Echos reported that a cancellation would come next we
31 Karan69 : Good point mate, nut i think they are looking first to replace their ageing A300-600s. Karan
32 Glacote : The one number which I find eye-catching is the 79 millions USD for 6 aircrafts. I thought the deposit was a mere $500,000 per aircraft - according to
33 Post contains images Flying-Tiger : Well, it is said that Lufthansa pays about 120 Million USD for their new B747-800. Talk about a lack of pricing power for Boeing... Seriously, it cle
34 EvilForce : Airbus' loss last year had nothing to do with A330 production. It had everything to do with writing down all the A380 problems and compensation claim
35 TrevD : Hardly. Not only is that $75m including engines, if Pegasus did their homework right, it also is in escalted delivery year dollars, i.e. the final pr
36 Astuteman : As Evilforce pointed out, Airbus expected to make E2.8Bn operating profit in the year, pre-exceptional costs, on E28Bn turnover. It is this number be
37 Post contains images EvilForce : You forgot the full tank of gas.
38 Zeke : As it does to me, as airlines in the region are picking up new 777s for 100m.
39 Post contains links Australia1 : U can get a lot more 335 seats in a 332 & probably more still in a 333. TS has something like 363 in their 332's in 2 class config. go to:- http://ww
40 SEPilot : A freighter should be cheaper than a passenger plane; freight doesn't need seats, galleys, lavatories, IFE, interior decor, windows, etc.; all of whi
41 Post contains links RedChili : Actually, Pegasus has not ordered any A332F's at all. They ordered the passenger version. See the Airbus press release on http://www.airbus.com/en/pr
42 Post contains images Stitch : Depends on what FX's contract was compared to TG's. I don't believe TG had any outstanding Airbus orders they wished to cancel and apply towards an A
43 SEPilot : Any explanation why? Granted, the freighter has structural reinforcements that add cost, but more than what a passenger interior costs? Or is it anot
44 Stitch : My mistake. It was the Intrepid A330F 20-frame non-binding LoU that is said to have gone out at $75 million a frame. Airbus has had a good month in o
45 Jfk777 : Boeing may only be getting a $120 million for the 748, but did the cargo airlines get a sweet a deal as Lufthansa ? No, would be my inital thought. Bo
46 Stitch : The trick is, if LH indeed received 65% discounts, that sets a new "opening price" for passenger and cargo airlines that enter into negotiations with
47 RedFlyer : A launch customer usually gets a pretty hefty discount, above and beyond typical discounts. But, of course, a launch customer is assuming a lot more
48 Osiris30 : Boeing used to have a fantastic breakdown... It was basically a million or two due at start of negotiations (that was later applied at signing)... Wi
49 Post contains images Khobar : I did not know the A330 was manufactured by a different Airbus than the A380.
50 EI321 : I remember whet EI got its first A333 in 1994, the list price was stated as about $100m then.
51 BoomBoom : Where was this said?
52 707lvr : Am I completely missing something here, or does this thread make irrelevant all the discussions we've had about the price of commercial aircraft? We k
53 SEPilot : But what did they actually pay for it? We don't have a clue.
54 Pygmalion : IFE, seats, galley ovens, coffee makers, sometimes carpet and partition declam are all Buyer furnished... or in other words.... not in the price. Inst
55 Aviator27 : List prices are meaningless in the air transport industry. In the last 20 years, only one customer has paid list price for an airplane and that was th
56 Zeke : Sounds very much like the numbers being discussed at other airlines.
57 Pygmalion : Where did you hear that??? I might believe they got a larger discount (~50%) for the first few that go into flight test before delivery, they are, af
58 Post contains links BoomBoom : http://www.leeham.net/filelib/Forgeard.pdf
59 Post contains links Leelaw : "Airbus' A380 losses are its clients' gain" Delay provides an idea how much a jet will set you back Seattle P-I Staff AND News Services http://seattle
60 Elvis777 : Howdy, So if 90 mill is the going rate -not even deeply dscounted at that- for a 33x and Zeke believes 77x go for 100 what does a 34x go for? It is go
61 Post contains images Astuteman : If you hadn't left out the pertinent part of my quote (for whatever reason...... ), you would have been under no such misapprehension.... Regards
62 Stitch : 2006 Prices Per Avitas: A340 Family - $123 million (45% discount) B777 Family - $138 million (41% discount) 2006 Prices Per AVAC A340-300 - $116 mill
63 OldAeroGuy : Nope, the A330F is based on the A332.
64 Zeke : Nice try at the flaimbait. How many aircraft are you trying to buy ? Give you a hint, if you buy 20 you do not pay the same as 1, if you book an orde
65 EI321 : Maybe its from that German newspaper article from the time or the order announcement, it quoted a discount in the range of 55%. I'm guessing about $6
66 Stitch : Yup. I'll just post the whole thing to make it easier for folks to reference, should they wish. 2006 Prices Per Avitas: A320 Family - $ 41 million (3
67 Post contains images DAYflyer : If they were truly selling an A-330 for $90 Million, dont you think they would have book about 500 orders for it last year???? I seriously doubt the v
68 Zeke : Do they also list engine and APU costs ? I seem to believe they could sell 1.5 months of the 330/340 airframe production line for 1.1 billion. Buying
69 Stitch : The publication does, however I didn't write it down when reviewing the issue in question. And I am not a subscriber as it is $1100 a year. They did
70 Post contains images Wingnut767 : It seems like the pricing that cruise lines do for cruises. $3000 brochure rate and then the same cabin has an internet rate for $1000. Why even post
71 AA777 : What on earth is the point of inflating the list prices so much? 40% discounts? Maybe I know nothing about marginal costs... but it seems like a 40% d
72 Post contains images Manni : The estimates of the Teal Group differs a lot from the others. I know you posted 2005 figures for them and 2006 figures for the others, but the diffe
73 Trex8 : because some airlines may actually pay close to it, check out CIs website in their financial statements, they paid somthing like 220 million for 744F
74 Post contains images Stitch : Yes, it seems odd now that the 767 is probably going for half-off or better in 2006 and 2007. But that doesn't mean their numbers for 2005 were faked
75 Post contains images Stitch : That is the trick. Chances are all these analyst prices do not include engines and spares and maintenance deals. They also may or may not include fut
76 Post contains images Astuteman : Many thanks for the great information Stitch. It seems to have prompted what's been for me the ONLY sensible conversation about price discounting tha
77 Zeke : Thanks Stitch, great post.
78 ZKNBX : Because the A330 will not do what the A350 will do.. (the A330 is not a long range a/c in the way the A350 is) and because TG have a bunch of old A30
79 Post contains links Lumberton : THAI and Airbus Fail To Agree On Compensation For A380 Delays No mention of A330 linkage.
80 Scouseflyer : Hmmm does anyone think that they will reach one?
81 Manni : Thanks for the update. A pitty the reporter couldn't be a bit more accurate. TG has ordered 6 not 8 A380s. Later on in the article he makes the same
82 Slz396 : Unless Thai wants to loose its deposits, it is just a matter of time really. I have the idea the reason for that is stated in the link you've provide
83 Lumberton : Thanks. I should have caught that! Not the first time some reporter plays loose with the facts.
84 Jacobin777 : Given how delayed the plane is, I wouldn't be surprised if those deposits could be returned without any penalties... ...that being said, I expect the
85 Khobar : Wow, $10M for each A380 in qty. 10. No wonder EK bought so many. So, no more arguments that Airbus isn't giving them away, huh? LOL - couldn't resist
86 Post contains links Manni : Here's another article (from today). In the article is written that TG will maintain its order for the 6 A380's, first aircraft will be delivered in 2
87 Slz396 : Wrong. It was reported in the media a few weeks ago the deposit would be LOST in case of cancellation (dixit TG's CEO) and actually it stirred quite
88 Scouseflyer : So what's people's thoughts in this still happening? I reckon it'll be A330s and no A380s but we may be suprised?
89 Pygmalion : ouch. I think that fact would hurt future sales. If a manufacturer can be two years late and you can't cancel and get your deposit back... why would
90 Trex8 : the right to cancel without penalties if the manufacturer is at fault for a prolonged delay certainly should be the standard. it is possible TG for r
91 BestWestern : Excellent data Stitch - the low discounts shows the value of the 739 and the 320..
92 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : ""We want to get the largest discount for the new aircraft as possible because the delay of the A380s has significantly hurt our business expansion p
93 RedChili : The topic was called "Thai - Airbus Selling 330s For $90m/ea" (now, does that ring a bell?). In that thread, in reply 28, Manni had a link to the sam
94 Burnsie28 : It was reported that NW bought their A333's for $85 million.
95 Manni : Assuming that the information you provided is correct. Did you consider when NW first placed her A330 order? At that time (early nineties) the listpr
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