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Brazilian Top 30 Airports In 2006  
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11406 posts, RR: 59
Posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4292 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR

Top 30 Brazilian Airports
-----------------------

1- Congonhas/CGH.......18.459.191
2- Guarulhos/GRU.........15.689.302
3- Brasilia/BSB..............9.699.911
4- Galeão/GIG...............8.741.225
5- Salvador/SSA............5.411.395
6- Recife/REC................3.953.845
7- Porto Alegre/POA.......3.846.508
8- Confins/CNF..............3.727.501
9- Santos Dumont/SDU..3.553.177
10- Curitiba/CWB..........3.532.234
11- Fortaleza/FOR.........3.282.689
12- Belem/BEL..............1.776.008
13- Manaus/MAO...........1.689.817
14- Vitoria/VIX..............1.661.192
15- Florianopolis/FLN......1.630.141
16- Natal/NAT...............1.391.956
17- Goiânia/GYN...........1.376.383
18- Cuiaba/CGB..............931.431
19- Campinas/VCP..........826.246
19- Pampulha/PLU...........800.940
20- Sao Luis/SLZ.............740.916
21- Foz do Iguacu/IGU.... 731.312
22- Campo Grande/CGR..718.215
23- Aracaju/AJU..............589.719
24- Londrina/LDB............518.396
25- Uberlandia/UDI.........483.978
26- Macapa/MCP.............480.377
27- Navegantes/NVT........466.772
28- Joao Pessoa/JPA........415.648
29- Teresina/THE.............380.440
30- Macaé/MEA................366.778

Notes:
-------

Strong growing on SSA, FOR and CNF (this one because of the flight reallocation from PLU during 2004) over 2005 numbers.

Major airports face little growing during 2005 (CGH +7%, BSB +2%, GIG +2%) or even a little loss of pax (GRU -2%)

SSA become one of the major South American Airports, probably one of the top 10 airports. It's also shows how strong is the demand for the Northeast of Brazil (SSA, FOR, REC, NAT, AJU, MCZ, SLZ, THE, JPA and some others)

Cargo:
------

1- GRU................ 517,000t (-1%)
2- VCP................ 177,000t (-1%)
3- MAO............... 157,000t (+ 10%)
4- GIG................ 127,800t (+1%)
5- SSA................ 89,300t (+1%)
6- REC................ 72,000t (+5%)
7- BSB................ 57,100t (-55%)
8- FOR.................43,200t (+4%)
9- POA.................41,800t (-14%)
10- CGH..............39,485t (-11%)

Cargo faces a year of little growing on mostly airports. MAO probably because of the high demand of Plasma TV and other electronics during the World Cup (Brazilians use to buy new Televisions on the World Cup Year) faces a major growing.

With important projects to begin during 2007, we can expect a better year for cargo in Brazil.

Problems during 2006:
---------------------

RG crisis and ATC problems during 2006 produced some reduction on the demand for domestic flights (ATC) and by mid-2006 a strong reduction on international flights offer (mainly to the US and Europe) which also could explain GRU drop and GIG slow growing during the past year. RG use to run their int'l hub from GRU and domestic hub at GIG.

2007:
-----

The biggest improvement on Airports will be the newly and renovated SDU (i have to say, i don't like the new airport... SDU is nice in the way it's always was.. walking to the plane looking for ALL sides, i'm confident and sure, it's very nice, probably one OR the top view in an airport). SDU will add 5,0 million pax capacity to the system (don't ask me why... i really don't know...IMO, better to do a major improvement on GIG TPS1!)

GYN and VIX will also receive brand new terminals with more comfort.

GRU TPS3: Considering the terms of the law (bid, RIMA license), probably we will see the beginning of the new terminal by September/07.

CGH: Runway to be closed running april/may for improvements.


Enjoy!

Felipe


New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 22
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4266 times:

That is amazing that both Rio airports don't even add up to just one of Sao Paulo's airports!


Delete this User
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4221 times:

Lipe: tks for bringing the numbers.

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
Major airports face little growing during 2005 (CGH +7%, BSB +2%, GIG +2%) or even a little loss of pax (GRU -2%)

GRU decreased -2% because of RG's demise. It could be said that numbers are surprising giving that RG removed more than 1.2million seats from GRU airport alone - of course, we could see that other airlines have gradually seized the market.

In the other hand, BSB is an airport which has plenty of potential, especially because of the new runaway. BSB's growth of only +2% was because of bottleneck created by the single runway.

I am very disapointed with GIG numbers considering that many had hopes that the relocation SDU-GIG would boost demand and connection for GIG. But growth has been slower than expected, even considering the demise of RG, the final numbers should have been a stronger growth.

CGH keeps king in Brazil. Amazing numbers for such an small airport.

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
GRU TPS3: Considering the terms of the law (bid, RIMA license), probably we will see the beginning of the new terminal by September/07.

T3 will not be completed before 2010.

As I stated many times, Sao Paulo needs a completely new airport in addition to CGH and GRU. INFRAERO finally came out this week and stated that indeed Sao Paulo needs a new airport to support traffic. There is no other way out. INFRAERO needs to make a massive investment in a state-of-the-art airport in Sao Paulo


Quoting Stirling (Reply 1):
That is amazing that both Rio airports don't even add up to just one of Sao Paulo's airports!

This is why I will always advocate for a NEW aiport in Sao Paulo.

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
SDU will add 5,0 million pax capacity to the system (don't ask me why... i really don't know...IMO, better to do a major improvement on GIG TPS1!)

Agree 100%. INFRAERO shows how crazy they are by making this investment in SDU. Why? Nobody knows. As if other airports in Brazil were in perfect shape. Look accross the city at GIG: T1 is falling apart, and it is a shame for tourist to arrive at such depleated airport. I myself find it horrible to connect in GIG because of the old T1. Many avoid connecting in GIG only because of T1. GIG T1 needs URGENT investment and revamp. It has become a shame for Rio that GIG T1 is in such a state...

Rgs,


User currently offlineRootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4186 posts, RR: 41
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4207 times:

WOW!!!! If GVA was in Brazil it would arrive 3rd...hard to believe !

By the way what major airline apart from TAM and GOL does Teresina recieve ?

[Edited 2007-01-26 10:27:31]


A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
User currently offlineQXatFAT From Israel, joined Feb 2006, 2404 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4190 times:

Wow Lipe! Thanks a lot for the report. Very nicely done and very informative. Thank you.


It is amazing how the impact that RG had in Brazil. I am actually kind of shocked to see MAO down at number 13. I would have thought deffinatly in the top 10 on this one.

Question, How many flights a day is GOL vs TAM turning out of CGH?

Thanks Felipe!



Don't Tread On Me!
User currently offlineRainmaker From Brazil, joined Jan 2006, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4165 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
SDU will add 5,0 million pax capacity to the system (don't ask me why... i really don't know...IMO, better to do a major improvement on GIG TPS1!)

Hint: There were simply too many years since Infraero last invested in RIO. This SDU refurbishing is the largest (the only?) construction work currently under way by a federal government agency in the city. And Rio houses a lot of voters.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4157 times:

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 3):
By the way what major airline apart from TAM and GOL does Teresina recieve ?

Apart from GOL and TAM, TAF http://www.voetaf.com.br/empresa/site/default.asp also operates in THE, Teresina airport. TAF operates two daily flights: THE-SLZ-BEL and THE-FOR.

OceanAir is also lanning to start operations there.

Rgs,


User currently offlineTeixeim From United States of America, joined May 2005, 131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4096 times:

I remember GIG TPS1 new when I was just a kid in the late 70s. I was so impressed with the building style and use of materials: stainless steel, terrazzo, rubber, concrete, etc. It was like nothing here in the U.S. and I'm sorry to hear its in disrepair now.

Later on, in the 80s and early 90s when all international flights shifted to São Paulo-GRU, I never really liked that terminal the same. It did not have the same arc-shaped building style, external observation deck and shopping that GIG had.

I find it fascinating how in such a short time all flights shifted from GIG to GRU. Its been discussed time and time again on this forum the reasons, but it seems that the airlines may have to take the initiative to transfer traffic to other airports as it seems to be happening in Brasilia. BSB seems to have potential as a connecting hub considering its more or less central location.

As for the continued popularity of SDU, CGH and if allowed, PLU - its simple: those airports are to d*mn convenient - just like DCA, LGA, MDW and Dallas Love Field here in the U.S. Infraero built that beautiful white elephant airport for Belo Horizonte at Confins- (do mundo) and when the airlines didn't shift traffic there themselves, Infraero forced them to do it. Good news for CNF spotters at any rate. Good news for taxi drivers and gas stations as CNF is truly an inconvenient drive from Centro Belo Horizonte.

With apologies for the rant and thanks for the updated airport info!
MitchellT / teixeim


User currently offlineNeo From Brazil, joined Jan 2001, 671 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4037 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
GYN and VIX will also receive brand new terminals with more comfort.

VIX will receive also a new runway but this together with the terminal will only be ready in late 2008, perhaps even 2009.

Rgs,

Neo


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11406 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4004 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 2):
I am very disapointed with GIG numbers considering that many had hopes that the relocation SDU-GIG would boost demand and connection for GIG. But growth has been slower than expected, even considering the demise of RG, the final numbers should have been a stronger growth.

Hardi, you have to consider RG problems because up to this, GIG faces a major growing of 14% (jan/may over 2005 levels), including 2 months ahead of BSB. RG was GIG largest operator with 7x daily to BSB, 2x daily to EZE, 4x daily to POA, 6x daily to SSA, 4x daily to VIX, 2x daily to BEL, 2x daily to NAT, 3x daily to REC, 3x daily to CWB, some of this flights were not returned even on JJ or G3 (GIG use to be an option for CWB/POA-Northeast on RG, but JJ/G3 use to do this thru CGH). I'm pretty sure that with RG, GIG should shows at least 15% of growing last year, reaching closer to 10 million pax.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 2):
As I stated many times, Sao Paulo needs a completely new airport in addition to CGH and GRU

Main problem... lack of space... the closer area is about 70 miles far from Paulista / Berrini / Faria Lima areas (the top business areas in São Paulo). IMO Hardi, there's space to focus on O&D just in CGH, using more airports like GIG for South-Northeast connections.
With only 5 daily flights to CWB and 7 to POA (note that most of them are WebJet GIG based flights) against close to 25x daily CWB-CGH (75% of all CWB-north flights) and 24x daily CGH-POA (65% of all POA-north flights), it's impossible.

I use to say, we can count the number of flights that fly over São Paulo state! The only flights are from BSB and GIG which can show us how concentrated are the flights in Brazil (also produces major delays because of congested ATC). There are no South-Northeast flights, South-North flights.

Pair of cities like GYN-GIG, POA-CNF, CWB-SSA, POA-SSA do not keep non-stop service, even become all major cities (all over 1,0 million people) because the system use to run short legs (GYN for example Hardi, has nowadays 65% of flights to CGH and only 30% to BSB).

And why pax choose CGH ? Is there any options ? Yes, but only a few options, and also if you look for a POA-GIG flight, it's more expensive than a POA-CGH-GIG because it's not interesting to sell and improve POA-GIG flights to most airlines. Also, thru CGH nowadays you get flights at every hour, and more flights to your final destinations (except for BEL, VIX, MEA and a few destinations where the business focus is higher from Rio than São Paulo, like oil and mining).

Who get more money with this ? Airlines ! They run a single hub (despite the old system with more non-stop services) flights.

São Paulo is the biggest business center, no doubt, but if you look for flight loads between 0600 and 0645 (where they are just only O&D pax) you will see flights with A320 departing with 30 to 70 pax every day.

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 4):
It is amazing how the impact that RG had in Brazil. I am actually kind of shocked to see MAO down at number 13. I would have thought deffinatly in the top 10 on this one

QXat, i believe MAO will never return as a top 10 because all the top 10 are still growing, and are mainly business or touristic destinations and keep some connections. To see MAO as a top 10, we need to see BVB, RBR, PVH and other cities around growing more as well as if MAO really become an international regional hub (to CCS, BOG, LIM, UIO, PTY, MIA and some others) attracting some connections from BSB and Northeast.

Quoting Teixeim (Reply 7):
BSB seems to have potential as a connecting hub considering its more or less central location.

BSB will receive during this year one daily service to LIS (TP), so we will see some increasing on pax numbers there, but it needs a new satellite/terminal !

Quoting Teixeim (Reply 7):
Infraero built that beautiful white elephant airport for Belo Horizonte at Confins- (do mundo) and when the airlines didn't shift traffic there themselves, Infraero forced them to do it. Good news for CNF spotters at any rate. Good news for taxi drivers and gas stations as CNF is truly an inconvenient drive from Centro Belo Horizonte

Belo Horizonte is not Sao Paulo or Rio (The state economy is diversified and it's located in many places, not concentrated on Metro Area) and CNF was designed to be the "state" airport, focusing on more flights to other state cities and expecting easy access to downtown Belo Horizonte (something just now provided). It's an airport that in three years will be running with 100% of the capacity as it could be an alternative to South-North flights also.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3410 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3965 times:

do any U.S. carriers serve Brasilia - if not, I wonder why...

User currently offlineQXatFAT From Israel, joined Feb 2006, 2404 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3919 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 9):
QXat, i believe MAO will never return as a top 10 because all the top 10 are still growing, and are mainly business or touristic destinations and keep some connections. To see MAO as a top 10, we need to see BVB, RBR, PVH and other cities around growing more as well as if MAO really become an international regional hub (to CCS, BOG, LIM, UIO, PTY, MIA and some others) attracting some connections from BSB and Northeast.

Thanks Felipe for the repsonse. I understand what you are saying about MAO. The problem is that BVB and these others really wont grow. Boa Vistas growth rate stopped after the boom. And please, help me to understand what you wrote about the international regional hub. Do you think they need to fly to these areas? Because I believe that they have service to PTY and MIA already.

Thanks Lipe



Don't Tread On Me!
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11406 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3873 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting PVD757 (Reply 10):
do any U.S. carriers serve Brasilia - if not, I wonder why...

No one PVD757, because it's very comfortable for all airlines to run flights to one or two destinations, where they know the market is big enough and even bigger because of connections. If no one Brazilian Airline fly BSB-United States, imagine why AA, DL, UA or CO will !

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 11):
And please, help me to understand what you wrote about the international regional hub. Do you think they need to fly to these areas? Because I believe that they have service to PTY and MIA already.

I try to comment that if an international hub (yes, PTY and MIA are already served by CM and JJ respectively) is established at MAO, probably we will see a huge improvement on the number of passengers there, as it could handle flights to FOR (non-stop), REC, SSA, GIG and even more services to places like BSB and BEL.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineQXatFAT From Israel, joined Feb 2006, 2404 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3839 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 12):
I try to comment that if an international hub (yes, PTY and MIA are already served by CM and JJ respectively) is established at MAO, probably we will see a huge improvement on the number of passengers there, as it could handle flights to FOR (non-stop), REC, SSA, GIG and even more services to places like BSB and BEL.

Thanks for clearing that up for me Lipe!

Kyle



Don't Tread On Me!
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3748 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 9):
BSB will receive during this year one daily service to LIS (TP), so we will see some increasing on pax numbers there, but it needs a new satellite/terminal !

Lipe, there is no guarantee that TAP will operate LIS-BSB. This is pure wish by Brazilian public servants. I know Brazilian Minister of Tourism came back from Lisbon with this rumours.

So far, nothing came officially or semi-officially from TAP. We know TAP is examining many potential routes in Brazil, among them BSB, MAO, BEL, SLZ, and even CNF, in addition to adding extra frequencies in GRU and GIG, for which TAP would certainly extra higher yields.

I have a source at TAP which stated that ailrine is even trying some agreement to operate LIS-CCS-MAO with 5th freedom rights.

Is BSB a good market for TAP? I guess so, however, we have to take into account that TAP is an airline mainly focused on the leisure market (with very thin/small C cabin, and no F service). TAP is not considered a high yielding airline, and sell a lot of its seats for holiday package agent/tours. This is why I still think that TAP will add another Northeast Brazilian destination instead of BSB. More than 70% of TAP's seat to Brazil are sold to foreigners. This would need to reverse if TAP ever serves BSB.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 9):
Hardi, you have to consider RG problems because up to this, GIG

Yes, RG withdrew from GIG, as it did from many airports in Brazil. What about GRU? At least 50% of international operations and domestic flights came close to 70%. The problem is that GIG got a massive boost with SDU-GIG relocation and therefore - even taking into account RG's demise - should have shown stronger numbers. The promise that GIG would generate connectivity and attract more flight did happen, but with a scale much smaller than foreseen.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 9):
Main problem... lack of space... the closer area is about 70 miles far from Paulista / Berrini / Faria Lima areas (the top business areas in São Paulo). IMO Hardi, there's space to focus on O&D just in CGH, using more airports like GIG for South-Northeast connections.

This is no excuse for not building another NEW airport in SAO. Everybody wants an airport in a prime area, but in any metropolis this is impossible. Of do you think JFK is in Manhattan? Even GIG is far outside the prime areas of Rio.

INFRAERO has to build a NEW and state-of-the-art airport in Sao Paulo. INFRAERO knows GRU and CGH will not handle demand after 2010, and finally agreed to the plan for a new airport. The new airport could be build in remote location but linked with speed rail - as any good airport in the world.

Rgs,


User currently offlineAF086 From France, joined Jan 2007, 1059 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3734 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 14):
This is no excuse for not building another NEW airport in SAO. Everybody wants an airport in a prime area, but in any metropolis this is impossible. Of do you think JFK is in Manhattan? Even GIG is far outside the prime areas of Rio.

Not far like GRU. GRU is not even located at São Paulo itself! GIG is about 20kms from downtown AND is located at the city of Rio. GRU is MUCH farther and this new airport would be even more distant from downtown so what's the point?

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 14):

INFRAERO has to build a NEW and state-of-the-art airport in Sao Paulo. INFRAERO knows GRU and CGH will not handle demand after 2010, and finally agreed to the plan for a new airport. The new airport could be build in remote location but linked with speed rail - as any good airport in the world.

No they don't. It will make things worse for the already busy São Paulo airspace. What they need to do is rearrange connections and by doing that freeing up capacity at SAO (CGH/GRU). It's absurd that very few flights fly above SAO and don't land there. It's ridiculous to spend a huge amount of tax payers' money to build another airfield where it's NOT necessary before doing some renovation/expansion at airports that need more:

BSB needs a new terminal satellite
GIG/GRU need ASAP revamping of the taxiways and GIG needs renovation of T1.
CGH needs runway reconstruction
POA/CWB need runway expansion
FLN needs more taxiways
GYN needs renovation and expansion of the terminal
and so on.

Building a 3rd airport at SAO won't help, it will just make things worse.



Please insert a "smart" joke here.
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8924 posts, RR: 40
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3729 times:

With the new runway in plans and T3, GRU still has space to expand. And they can always completely redo T1 and T2 into something better. The massive parking lots can be made into a parking deck that uses less space and with more capacity.

They can even build a third runway to replace 09R/27L further so that the parallel runways can support simultaneous ops.

In with the new, out with the old.

From Google Earth, the total land area of GRU seems larger than ATL (world's busiest airport), or maybe about the same, but including the area used by the airforce and the area invade by poor housing that belongs to GRU.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3727 times:

Quoting AF086 (Reply 15):
GRU is MUCH farther and this new airport would be even more distant from downtown so what's the point?

Sao Paulo is one of the biggest cities in the world. As so far as there is a speed rail connection this would not be a problem. For exempla, NRT is 75km from downtown, while ORD is 40km and MXP 50km.

Perhaps they could just build a speed train interlinking CPQ to downtown Sao Paulo.

Quoting AF086 (Reply 15):
No they don't. It will make things worse for the already busy São Paulo airspace.

Sao Paulo has a busy airspace and it will continue growing. It is just like saying: Sao Paulo city is too busy so now we have to transfer multinationals and companies out of Sao Paulo to Rio and elsewhere. It wont happen.
As long as airlines make more money and profits in Sao Paulo they will keep flying there. You cannot force airlines to move to GIG.

I hate this idea of interfering with the market. The market is GRU, so lets enable airlines to fly even more there.


Quoting AF086 (Reply 15):
No they don't

Yes, they will. INFRAERO President stated this at a press conference: a NEW airport for Sao Paulo, which is a project in tandem with the expansion of CGH and GRU T3.

Everybody knows that the expansion of CGH and GRU T3 is not enough to cope with future demand. GRU T3 will already be operating at full capacity before it is ready in 2010. GRU Summer 07 - Busiest Ever (by Neo Jan 10 2007 in Civil Aviation)?searchid=3192898&s=gru#ID3192898

Rgs,


User currently offlineBrasuca From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 717 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3719 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 14):
Is BSB a good market for TAP? I guess so, however, we have to take into account that TAP is an airline mainly focused on the leisure market (with very thin/small C cabin, and no F service). TAP is not considered a high yielding airline, and sell a lot of its seats for holiday package agent/tours. This is why I still think that TAP will add another Northeast Brazilian destination instead of BSB. More than 70% of TAP's seat to Brazil are sold to foreigners. This would need to reverse if TAP ever serves BSB.

So you consider BSB underpins too much F and C pax along with few Y demand? Quite controversial.
If correct, one could infer therefore this is a market for the likes of BA, LH and AF - they die for the much sought after First and Business passengers that crowd Brasília, as you explained. Why not TAP then?



Varig, Varig, Varig
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3717 times:

To further enrich Lipe's list above, I have compiled the list of Brazilian with the greatest movement of aircraft (Jan/06-Dez/06):

1. CGH 230995
2. GRU 154940
3. BSB 126427
4. GIG 100895
5. SSA 91414
6. MARTE 85159
7. SDU 64603
8. POA 59463
9. REC 57812
10. CWB 56934
11. MEA 55131
12. PLU 47602
13. FOR 46567
14. CNF 45437
15. GYN 42610
16. BEL 36850
17. CGB 34793
18. MAO 33785
19. VIX 33098
20. FLN 30277
21. CPQ 25109
22. CGR 21629
23. SLZ 21201
24. LDB 21109
25. NAT 18755
26. UDI 18424
27. MCZ 18370
28. STM 17961
29. AJU 17659
30. PMW 13320
31. MCP 12944
32. PVH 11887
33. THE 11757
34. RBR 10648
35. IGU 10059
36. NVT 9245
37. BVB 8830
38. UBA 8163
39. JOI 7618
40. JPA 6318

PS: MARTE means Campo de Marte ANOTHER AIRPORT IN SAO PAULO: a small airport in Sao Paulo for business flight operations only. This is a very convenient airport, located near Anhembi Convention Center in the North of Sao Paulo city. I must say a very busy airport for busienss traffic.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11406 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3704 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 14):
At least 50% of international operations and domestic flights came close to 70%. The problem is that GIG got a massive boost with SDU-GIG relocation and therefore - even taking into account RG's demise - should have shown stronger numbers. The promise that GIG would generate connectivity and attract more flight did happen, but with a scale much smaller than foreseen

Hardi, we know GIG grow 100% over two years because of that, and SDU lost only 33% of their pax, Rio system grows from 8 mm to 12 mm but with the concentration of flights at CGH/GRU how do you imagine to develop a new hub ? You can imagine a NVT-GIG and how about GYN, CGB, CGR, RAO, UDI, MGF, JOI... there are lots of airports with restricted service to one city, lots also with 90% of services to a single city.
How we can imagine an airline choosing GIG instead of GRU if the city itself is stronger for business and also, ALL markets can be reached from Sao Paulo, and not from Rio. Infraero has the intention to do, but someone has to advise them, they need to give incentives like they offer to fly ALSO to GRU in 90's (but the market do not grow so much and many airlines enjoy the incentive to move from Rio to Sao Paulo).
And yes, GRU is nowadays 70% of all international traffic... and it's not fair that BSB, CNF, CWB does not keep services to US and Europe!

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 14):
This is no excuse for not building another NEW airport in SAO. Everybody wants an airport in a prime area, but in any metropolis this is impossible. Of do you think JFK is in Manhattan? Even GIG is far outside the prime areas of Rio.

As you know i live in Manhattan. Hardi, JFK is far, but it's easily reached, and it's very convenient to Queens and also, it's in NY Metro Transit System thru AirTrain. JFK is even closer than GRU (and also in a better place, at sea level and without terrain restrictions). No way to compare NY with Sao Paulo because you really do not keep an area available to an international airport closer than 70 miles, and if you find, will be on areas subject to fog, or severe restrictions due to terrain. New York Port Authority just lease a new area, even far than GRU to develop NYC 3rd airport, but it's an area larger than EWR but they have plans for only 3.0 million pax/year.
To add, Brazil is really not a rich country to build a new airport (US$ 800 million at least), while there are other huge demands, and we can see a kind of no-more slots at GRU policy.

If we build a new SAO airport, probably we will see in the future, 75% of Brazilians going to somewhere thru one of the three airports of Sao Paulo, huge delays due to ATC problems, and the chance to develop other cities, very restricted due to the fact that one city will be so big that no one could avoid invest on. We want a country like England or France (where LON and PAR accounts for a huge stake of GNP) ? Okay, so build a new airport in Sao Paulo. We want a diversified economy with several strong cities, we have to thing about.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 16):
From Google Earth, the total land area of GRU seems larger than ATL (world's busiest airport), or maybe about the same, but including the area used by the airforce and the area invade by poor housing that belongs to GRU.

GRU project was a mistake. The terminals it self should be built in the middle of the area, and not in one of the sides. It should allow to keep 2 runways that could run simultaneous operations. Also, it's capacity should be even closer to 55 million (almost 100% higher than the 29 million it could reach with future TPS3).



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3697 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 20):
GRU project was a mistake.

Another reason to build a new airport.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 20):
And yes, GRU is nowadays 70% of all international traffic... and it's not fair that BSB, CNF, CWB does not keep services to US and Europe!

It is not a question of fair or not fair, but market rules.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 20):
Hardi, we know GIG grow 100% over two years because of that, and SDU lost only 33% of their pax, Rio system grows from 8 mm to 12 mm but with the concentration of flights at CGH/GRU how do you imagine to develop a new hub ? You can imagine a NVT-GIG and how about GYN, CGB, CGR, RAO, UDI, MGF, JOI... there are lots of airports with restricted service to one city, lots also with 90% of services to a single city.

You already know my views on this subject, as expressed above. There is no NVT-GIG because there is no market. There is NVT-CGH-GIG because there is market.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 20):
To add, Brazil is really not a rich country to build a new airport (US$ 800 million at least), while there are other huge demands, and we can see a kind of no-more slots at GRU policy.

Agree 100%. There are other infra-structure projects with higher priority in Brazil. Totally correct. The way out? Privatisation, an idea currently being examined by the Government. Private companies should operate Brazilian airports.


Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 20):
Hardi, JFK is far, but it's easily reached, and it's very convenient to Queens and also, it's in NY Metro Transit System thru AirTrain.

This is why I stated, as above, there need of a speed rail. The speed rail connection is in the Government plan under the PAC programme.

Rgs,


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11406 posts, RR: 59
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3686 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 17):
Perhaps they could just build a speed train interlinking CPQ to downtown Sao Paulo.

They had a plan to build it on Bandeirantes Highway middle section. Two years ago the State of Sao Paulo authorized the AutoBan Road Company to build an additional lane of traffic, which used the cheapest train area. Now, a projection made by the Government says it will cost at least US$ 8 billion because of the high cost of land. Even considering a private company, it's too much as the expected revenue is not so high. Also, the use of the current railway is not possible because of huge cargo demand (and you need to convert to a high speed train capacity).

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 17):
I hate this idea of interfering with the market. The market is GRU, so lets enable airlines to fly even more there.

I do not refuse the idea of GRU as "the market", but with 70% of the pax, i'm sorry Hardi, just say "GRU has no more slots". Every new flight to SSA, BSB, CNF, GIG or any other will also create more room to the strong Sao Paulo O&D market on the current flights.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 14):
Lipe, there is no guarantee that TAP will operate LIS-BSB. This is pure wish by Brazilian public servants. I know Brazilian Minister of Tourism came back from Lisbon with this rumours.

I can say to you that ANAC is working on this flight as well as Cernai. And yes, we probably will see BSB-LIS. This is a bargain to authorize more flights to the markets of Rio and Sao Paulo. It's not a new rumor, it's even older, from the end of 2006. Now thing become stronger with a Minister telling TP that the government of Brazil could grant to them the frequencies they need.

Brasilia is a strong market, BSB is the 3rd biggest country airport, and for sure it keep demand for a single daily flight to Europe, and if we only consider government and diplomatic traffic to Europe (plus people from BSB) as well as it will be the easy way to connect MAO-Europe, i'm sure it's a strong market.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineAF086 From France, joined Jan 2007, 1059 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3686 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 17):
Sao Paulo is one of the biggest cities in the world. As so far as there is a speed rail connection this would not be a problem. For exempla, NRT is 75km from downtown, while ORD is 40km and MXP 50km.

Perhaps they could just build a speed train interlinking CPQ to downtown Sao Paulo.

So is Rio but that's not the point. It's not up to Infraero to build links to the airports. CNF needs a connection to the city more than VCP does and that's one of the reasons CNF's growth is reduced it's just too hard for the pax to get there.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 17):
Sao Paulo has a busy airspace and it will continue growing. It is just like saying: Sao Paulo city is too busy so now we have to transfer multinationals and companies out of Sao Paulo to Rio and elsewhere. It wont happen.
As long as airlines make more money and profits in Sao Paulo they will keep flying there. You cannot force airlines to move to GIG.

I hate this idea of interfering with the market. The market is GRU, so lets enable airlines to fly even more there.

Never said that multinationals should flee SP and move elsewhere. I'm just saying that more than 50% of SAO's traffic is made of connections and pax can connect at GIG, CNF, GYN no matter where. So why make them in a saturated system? Rearranging connections will be GOOD for SAO because you'll have more room for SAO's O&D traffic.

And, again, it's VERY easy to say that "São Paulo is the best market" when you force 80% of the traffic to go through a city. It's ridiculous!

And I repeat: BEFORE even thinking of building a 3rd airport at the São Paulo metro area (70 miles away from downtown!) Infraero must renovate the existing ones (most of them needing URGENTLY taxiway/runway repais which mean: efficiency and above all: SAFETY).

A country with the size and with Brazil's economy cannot have a air network so concentrated that a bad weather situation in one city causes huge delays (and because of that money loss) in the rest of the country. And SP hasn't got the most stable weather, CGH cannot handle the traffic they do and GRU is cursed with fogs, specially during the winter. (as you might know "Cumbica" -which is the name of the region the airport was built- means "low cloud" according to the native language spoken there, so it means something, right?).

You should not force airlines to move away from SAO but you must have INCENTIVES to make airlines go elsewhere such as airport tax reducions, government tax reduction, fuel prices, show airlines that can operate elsewhere with the same (or better) profit but with a better and more efficient airport structure (meaning less delays, cheaper operation and more confort to the pax) and so on.



Please insert a "smart" joke here.
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3674 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 22):
Brasilia is a strong market, BSB is the 3rd biggest country airport, and for sure it keep demand for a single daily flight to Europe, and if we only consider government and diplomatic traffic to Europe (plus people from BSB) as well as it will be the easy way to connect MAO-Europe, i'm sure it's a strong market.

Lipe, BSB-LIS would not be operated by TAP if they could decide according to their market startegy. As I stated above, TAP's profile is low yileindg (small C, no F, holiday packages, 70% foreigners), which explains TAP's sucess in Northeast Brazil. BSB will be a complete different market profile.

Now, if TP's BSB-LIS is part of a "bargain", as you stated above, possibly involving further slots in GIG and GRU, then it is a complete new information.

So, why doesnt the Brazilian Government also "bargain" AA so that they could open new flights to Brazil? I really dont like this type of Goverment interventions.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 22):
Brasilia is a strong market, BSB is the 3rd biggest country airport, and for sure it keep demand for a single daily flight to Europe, and if we only consider government and diplomatic traffic to Europe (plus people from BSB) as well as it will be the easy way to connect MAO-Europe, i'm sure it's a strong market.

Not so sure. BSB currently does not even have MIA-BSB nonstop. BSB has strong domestic traffic, full stop. Even BSB-EZE needs a sop-over in POA. TAM sells only around 40% of the EZE flight in BSB (many being connections), the balance being POA tickets.

Again, public service and diplomatic is thin market. I have serious questions about the sucess of BSB-LIS, and TP would need to get a very interesting carrot to operate this route...

Rgs,


25 Hardiwv : This is not true. Please provide link with reliable information. GRU is around 70% of the traffic, certainly far more than 50%. Rgs,
26 AF086 : What's your source then? Mine is people from inside airlines (such as TAM, Gol, Air France and others) who provide me numbers. In the end it will be
27 LipeGIG : How ? Most international flights come out of GRU ! Even you while flying to Rio or Santa Catarina use to fly thru GRU. Even people to EZE use to fly
28 Pzurita1 : Not yet among Top 10, but in Top 15. Here the actual list of Latin American airports with more traffic (MM pax 2006) 1. MEX.....24,7 2. CGH.....18,4
29 Post contains images PPVRA : I agree But it can be fixed. At a high cost, for sure, but there are not many options and honestly IMO, no better ones. We can deal with the fog.[Edi
30 LipeGIG : You're right! And probably at a lower cost than build a new one airport, very far from the city. Moving the cargo facilities to the other side (close
31 LipeGIG : AA flight SSA-MIA should be also announced very soon. And just to let you know about TP CEO comments: "O presidente da Tap, Fernando Pinto, disse que
32 Post contains images ZRHnerd : And ZRH first
33 Hardiwv : So you agree that BSB cannot sustain EZE nonstop. This is the main argument why hubs such as GRU exist. If an airport can sustain nonstop traffic, su
34 LipeGIG : No Hardi, my point is that with only one daily departure it's not so convenient for travellers (considering EZE as the destination). We could only se
35 Hardiwv : And this single departure is not even nonstop, needs a stop-over in POA to boost loads/demand. It shows there is no market for nonstop service yet. A
36 2travel2know : If you were to consider the government/diplomatic traffic between BSB and Northern Latinamerica / U.S.A then a BSB-PTY could make sense. BSB-PTY does
37 Hardiwv : I think CNF is under GIG coverage area and not BSB. There are far more options in GIG than BSB. If you consider Lipe's list provided in the starting
38 2travel2know : I meant if CM is to fly to BSB, passengers from CNF could connect overthere too instead of GIG/GRU. As for CM next Brazilian destination, BSB could b
39 Incitatus : If the US-Brasil bilateral opens opportunities for flights into secondary Brazilian cities, Copa will not be able to serve any of them profitably. A b
40 LipeGIG : The number of flights CNF-BSB (7x daily, 2 operators) is very little, not as strong as CNF-GIG as well as PLU-GIG (14x daily, 4 operators) or CNF-GRU
41 Neo : I'm sorry but that is just a lousy statement. Just because there is no non-stop flight between 2 cities it doesn't mean there is no traffic to suppor
42 2travel2know : So there's no traffic between HAV, México, Dominican Republic, Haïti, Colombia, Venezuela, Centralamerica... and Brazil??
43 PU752 : Im very sure BSB would not support an EZE service, i recall in late 90s PU flight EZE-MVD-CNF , it did work for 1 yr but no idea why they discontinue
44 Hardiwv : This is what I said in my previous statement. BSB does not yet support EZE nonstop. TAM knows this and introduced instead BSB-POA-EZE. BSB (inlcuding
45 LipeGIG : I have to admit that after looking for some numbers (and again realize how strong BSB is in terms of connections) the size of BSB market is only clos
46 Hardiwv : Correct, Lipe. As I said, BSB-EZE cannot sustain nonstop service. Only destinations in Brazil which can sustain EZE nonstop are: GRU, GIG, POA, FLN (
47 2travel2know : I would expect SSA-EZE to aslo support non-stop service, most likely not daily, but at least 1-2 per week, specially in the Summer. As for other Braz
48 Brasuca : The fact that BSB is strong in connections does justify, conversely, a non-stop to EZE. You've said so far "BRASILIA ITSELF", but what about all the n
49 Neo : Agree.. GRU is like 40-50% of what it is without its connections. BSB itselft cannot sustain daily flights to EZE, but with connections it could. A n
50 LipeGIG : This is a fact. Need to see a non-stop in order to see how BSB attract more services. Agree 100% ANAC is a poor agency, just authorize TP to reduce N
51 2travel2know : Since you're now talking about routes from EZE to BSB and other major Brazilian airports. Would Summertime, Weekend-only, non-stop COR-SSA and COR-GIG
52 LipeGIG : AR some time ago announced they has plans for a COR-GIG. SSA i believe make more sense EZE-SSA first. COR-GIG is really a good route, as nowadays all
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