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2 Planes On The Same Runway - Is This Legal?  
User currently offlineBluewhale18210 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 237 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 19338 times:

I took a flight from LAX to SEA today on AS, AS115, leaving LAX at 1235.
Apparently the pilot did not waste any time on the ground...
We were #2 on arrival holding on Taxiway D for an arriving AA 757, then the plane in front of us, a NW 319 turned on to 24L and started its takeoff roll.
I was just thinking that since "Position and Hold" is no longer OK by the FAA, we'll have to hold on the inlet until the 319 clears the airfield, when our 737
taxied onto 24L and...
...started our takeoff roll.
The 319 was barely 1,500 ft away when we started onto the Runway, and must be barely off the ground when we started rolling...
Is this legal? I thought a departing aircraft must be out a certain distance before the clearance of the next is given...is it somehow changed?

[Edited 2007-01-26 06:07:22]


JPS on A300-600RF A319/320 B737-400/800 B757-200F B767-300F CRJ-200/900. Looking to add more.
66 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 19330 times:

Position and hold is still allowed. I do it daily. Often we're told to position and hold in the same transmission where the previous aircraft is cleared for takeoff. Depending on the aircraft, initial headings, etc, you can be cleared for takeoff very shortly after the previous departure.

User currently offlineCharliejag1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 239 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 19321 times:

I was under the impression that two aircraft could not be on the runway at the same time. I am not aware of any certain distance that one plane has to be from the runway. The more that I think about it, I think it might be ok for 2 departing aircraft if one is not moving. For instance, a GV is holding at the end of the runway and a Skyhawk takes the second intersection and departs. Lets say the jet is waiting for IFR clearance or something. I say this because I seem to recall being the pilot of the Cessna in this situation.

User currently offlineBluewhale18210 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 237 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 19219 times:

I didn't check my watch, but I believe from the time the 319 started rolling to the time our 737 was wheels-up it was less than 1 minute.


JPS on A300-600RF A319/320 B737-400/800 B757-200F B767-300F CRJ-200/900. Looking to add more.
User currently offlineNWA ARJ From United States of America, joined May 2001, 547 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 19199 times:

3-9-4. TAXI INTO POSITION AND HOLD (TIPH)

a. The intent of TIPH is to position aircraft for an imminent departure. Authorize an

aircraft to taxi into position and hold, except as restricted in subparagraph g, when takeoff

clearance cannot be issued because of traffic. Issue traffic information to any aircraft so

authorized . Traffic information may be omitted when traffic is another aircraft which has landed on or is taking off the same runway and is clearly visible to the holding aircraft. Do not use conditional phrases such as “behind landing traffic” or “after the departing aircraft.”

b. USN NOT APPLICABLE. First state the runway number followed by the taxi into position clearance when more than one runway is active.

PHRASEOLOGY-
RUNWAY (number), POSITION AND HOLD.

Or, when only one runway is active :

POSITION AND HOLD.

c. Do not issue a clearance to an aircraft requesting a full-stop, touch-and-go, stop-and-go, option, or unrestricted low approach on the same runway with an aircraft that is holding in position, taxiing into position or has been cleared to taxi into position and hold until the aircraft in position starts takeoff roll. Do not clear an aircraft to TIPH if an aircraft has been cleared to land, touch-and-go, stop-and-go, option, or unrestricted low approach on the same runway.



PHRASEOLOGY –

“RUNWAY (number), CONTINUE, TRAFFIC HOLDING IN POSITION.” or, (when only

one runway is active): “CONTINUE, TRAFFIC HOLDING IN POSITION.”



EXAMPLE –

“American 528, runway two three, continue, traffic holding in position.” or, (when only one runway is active): “American 528, continue, traffic holding in position.”



(1) Landing clearance need not be withheld if the safety logic system is operating in the full core alert runway configuration.



(2) Facilities without the safety logic system and facilities with the safety logic system in

limited configuration must withhold landing clearance until the aircraft in position starts takeoff roll.



REFERENCE:

FAAO 7110.65, Landing Clearance, Para 3-10- 5.



d. When an aircraft is authorized to taxi into position and hold, inform it of the closest traffic requesting a full-stop, touch-and-go, stop-and-go, option, or unrestricted low approach to the same runway.

EXAMPLE-
"United Five, runway one eight, position and hold. Traffic a Boeing Seven Thirty Seven, six mile final."

Or, when only one runway is active:

"United Five, position and hold. Traffic a Boeing Seven Thirty Seven, six mile final."

e. USAF. When an aircraft is authorized to taxi into takeoff position to hold, inform it of the closest traffic within 6 miles on final approach to the same runway. If the approaching aircraft is on a different frequency, inform it of the aircraft taxiing into position.

f. Do not authorize an aircraft to taxi into position and hold when the departure point is not visible from the tower, unless the aircraft's position can be verified by ASDE or the runway is used for departures only.

g. An aircraft may be authorized to taxi into position and hold at an intersection between sunset and sunrise. The procedure must be approved by the appropriate Director, Terminal Operations (service area office), and by the Director, Terminal Safety and Operations Support, and must be contained in a facility directive. The following conditions must apply:



(1) The runway must be used as a departure-only runway.



(2) Only one aircraft at a time is permitted to taxi into position and hold on the same runway.



(3) Document on FAA Form 7230-4, Daily Record of Facility Operation, the following:

“TIPH at INT of RWY (number) and TWY (name) IN EFFECT” when using runway as a

departure-only runway. “TIPH at INT of RWY (number) and TWY (name) SUSPENDED” when runway is not used as a departure-only runway.



h. Do not authorize an aircraft to taxi into position and hold at any time when the intersection is not visible from the tower.



i . Do not authorize aircraft to simultaneously taxi into position and hold on the same runway, between sunrise and sunset, unless the local assist/local monitor position is staffed.

j. USN. Do not authorize aircraft to taxi into takeoff position to hold simultaneously on intersecting runways.

PHRASEOLOGY-
CONTINUE HOLDING ,

or

TAXI OFF THE RUNWAY.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Altitude Restricted Low Approach, Para 3-10-10.

k. When aircraft are authorized to taxi into position and hold on runways that intersect, traffic must be exchanged between that aircraft and the aircraft that is authorized to position and hold, depart, or arrive to the intersecting runway(s).



EXAMPLE –

“United Five, runway four, position and hold, traffic holding runway three-one.”

“Delta One, runway three-one, position and hold, traffic holding runway four.”



or , when issuing traffic information to an arrival aircraft and an aircraft that is holding on

runway(s) that intersect(s):



“Delta One, runway four, position and hold, traffic landing runway three-one.”

“United Five, runway three-one, cleared to land. Traffic holding in position runway four. ”.



or , when issuing traffic information to a departing aircraft and an aircraft that is holding on runway(s) that intersect(s):



“Delta One, runway three-one, position and hold, traffic departing runway four.”

“United Five, runway four, cleared for takeoff, traffic holding runway three-one.”

And as for the A319 being 1500 feet down the runway, two planes of that class (III) need to have 6000 feet of runway separation and be airborne using sutiable landmarks, or have crossed the departure threshold.



Nightmare 68, Fargo Tower, Runway 36, Fly Runway Heading, Mantain 10,000, Cleared For Takeoff, Change To Departure
User currently offlineMPDPilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 986 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 19135 times:

Taxing into position and holding is allowed when the airport gains special permission from the FAA.

There can be two aircraft on the runway at the sametime as long as the aircraft are, in this case, 6000' apart. I have heard of there being some fudging of that, but if the aircraf that just landed is vacating the runway the tower can clear another aircraft for departure, it is called implied separation, or something like that. The example I think explains it best is at LGA they can clear two aircraft for departure on the two runways at almost the sametime because it is assumed that the first aircraft will cross the intersecting runway and remain clear of the aircraft departing on the other runway.

I asked a very similar question to a phoenix tracon controller I think I am remembering this correctly.



One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
User currently offlineSilver1SWA From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 4737 posts, RR: 26
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 19128 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I see this happen all the time.


ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineBluewhale18210 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 237 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 19112 times:

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 5):
There can be two aircraft on the runway at the sametime as long as the aircraft are, in this case, 6000' apart.

Definitely less than 6,000' in this case. The 319 barely hit the first marker (runway remaining marker) when we started turning. And as soon as our 737 lines up with 24L the engine turned up and we rolled.



JPS on A300-600RF A319/320 B737-400/800 B757-200F B767-300F CRJ-200/900. Looking to add more.
User currently offlineAirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 19056 times:

If you listen to SNA Tower/SOCAL Approach on www.liveatc.net, you will hear a lot of position and hold. That's one of my favorite airports to monitor.

User currently offlineSilver1SWA From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 4737 posts, RR: 26
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 19037 times:
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Quoting Bluewhale18210 (Reply 7):
Definitely less than 6,000' in this case. The 319 barely hit the first marker (runway remaining marker) when we started turning. And as soon as our 737 lines up with 24L the engine turned up and we rolled.

Again, working at an airport I see this happen daily. Also, I have been on multiple flights, departing various airports, where this happened as well. It is not unusual, and since it happens so often and at many airports, I'd say this procedure doesn't violate any rules/regulations.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineMPDPilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 986 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 19037 times:

Quoting Bluewhale18210 (Reply 7):
Definitely less than 6,000' in this case. The 319 barely hit the first marker (runway remaining marker) when we started turning. And as soon as our 737 lines up with 24L the engine turned up and we rolled.

you must explain. which markers are you talking about, the ones on the ground or the black ones on the side of the runway. if it is the side of the runway ones I would be surprized if they were even on the ground being that it is the 1000' down the runway. if you mean the ones one the runway then there was only 3000' remaining on the runway which is definately 6000' down the runway and I am amazed that you could still see the airplane.



One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
User currently offlineBluewhale18210 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 237 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 18991 times:

OK, here is the situation.
I know where the black marker with number 1 on it is. It was marking the 1000ft remaining for RWY 6R, right? So on the marker it makes it 1000ft from starting of RWY 24L. What I meant to say is that the 319 ahead of us merely started its takeoff roll and went about 1,000 to 1,500 ft before my plane turned onto the same runway and started our own takeoff roll. By my estimate (from watching numerous A320/737 takeoffs, not very scientific, I know) when my 737's engine started to turn up the 319 is probably barely left the ground. In any case it was the least amount of ground separation I have ever witnessed either on the ramp or in a plane.

Here's a step by step events, as clear as I could make it.
-The AA757 landed and (persumably) cleared RWY 24L
-NW 319 turned onto 24L and immediately started its takeoff roll
-The sametime 319 left its hold position on TWY D my AS737 followed.
-NW 319 went about 1,500ft on its takeoff roll when my 737 turned onto 24L also.
-Immediately after my 737 lines up the engine powered up and we were in the takeoff roll.

The whole process, from the time 319 turned onto the runway to my 737 was airborne, is about a minute.

Hope it clears up the picture...



JPS on A300-600RF A319/320 B737-400/800 B757-200F B767-300F CRJ-200/900. Looking to add more.
User currently offlineS12PPL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 18988 times:

It's very very normal....


I've gone through PHX before connecting other places. During the peak hours of the day there, this stuff is done. I was flying PHX-ONT, and they were rolling planes along. One plane would get into possition and hold. It's start it's roll, and the next plane would get into possition. By the time we got up to #1, the plane in front of us was just lifting off as we began our roll. Very normal. Not sure where you heard it was illegal....  Confused


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 18980 times:

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 8):
If you listen to SNA Tower/SOCAL Approach on www.liveatc.net, you will hear a lot of position and hold.

Same in JFK. Everytime I listen to JFK, I hear lots of times aeroplanes being ordered to position and hold.


User currently offlineBluewhale18210 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 237 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 18956 times:

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 9):
Again, working at an airport I see this happen daily. Also, I have been on multiple flights, departing various airports, where this happened as well. It is not unusual, and since it happens so often and at many airports, I'd say this procedure doesn't violate any rules/regulations.

Don't controllers usually wait until one aircraft is airborne, hand it off to departure, before granting another takeoff clearance?
Like:
"NW319, you are cleared for takeoff."
"Cleared for takeoff, NW319." (Rolls)
"AS737, taxi into position and hold"
"Position and hold, AS737" (Taxis and holds on RWY)
"NW319, climb and maintain 5,000. Contact SoCal departure 124.50. Goodday"
"124.50, NW319"
"AS737, cleared for takeoff."
"Cleared for takeoff, AS737"

Or did I miss something?



JPS on A300-600RF A319/320 B737-400/800 B757-200F B767-300F CRJ-200/900. Looking to add more.
User currently offlineBluewhale18210 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 237 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 18951 times:

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 12):
Not sure where you heard it was illegal....

Nah, just thought to check with experts on A.net, not being a pilot myself.
It is just I usually didn't see LAX had to shoot planes off this fast.
Thanks, your feedback had been helpful.



JPS on A300-600RF A319/320 B737-400/800 B757-200F B767-300F CRJ-200/900. Looking to add more.
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 18911 times:

Quoting Bluewhale18210 (Reply 14):
Don't controllers usually wait until one aircraft is airborne, hand it off to departure, before granting another takeoff clearance?

Surely. Position and hold means that an aircraft can enter the runway to line up and wait (hence why in other countries, this instruction is known as line up and wait   ) for takeoff clearance. Once the departing aircraft has been handed over to Departure and certain other requirements, such as vertical and horizontal separation are met, the aircraft will be cleared for takeoff. That's at least how I see it at SJO when watching departures and listening to Coco Tower.

EDIT to add: In SJO, I also heard a DL 757 pilot requesting position and hold once, instead of going for a "rolling" departure without stopping. I guess they needed to doublecheck the checklist and other things before finally rolling.

[Edited 2007-01-26 07:53:54]

User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 18872 times:



One thing I think may be being overlooked here is that it's hard to judge the distance of an aircraft rolling down 24L when one is still holding at the end. You have depth-of-field considerations, plus the aircraft rolling is continuously accelerating with a Vr of 125-135 kts or so, and it will accelerate even further once it gets airborne. LAX 24L is over 10,000 feet long, so one only has to get about halfway down the runway before one has 1 mile of separation.

[Edited 2007-01-26 08:10:03]

User currently offlineRyDawg82 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 851 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 18841 times:

You are confusing the rules...

Assuming that the leading aircraft is not a B757 or Heavy jet, the second aircraft my be told to taxi into position. The 6000 foot rule is a separation rule for two aircraft that have been cleared for takeoff.

So in your case, the NW A319 was cleared for takeoff. The visual rule states that as soon as that NW A319 is 6000 feet down the runway **AND** Airborne, the second aircraft (Alaska 737) may be cleared for takeoff. There are some additional requirements that will be fulfilled after departure to increase the separation to 3 miles initially, and then 5 miles in the enroute environment. But I again stress, in your example...As soon as that NWA A319 was Cleared, the ASA 737 could be told Position and Hold (and I would also state, Caution Jetblast).

I hope this clears things up about the 6000 foot rule...
Ryan



You can take the pup out of Alaska, but you can't take the Alaska out of the pup.
User currently offlineEchster From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 18798 times:

Quoting Bluewhale18210 (Reply 14):
Don't controllers usually wait until one aircraft is airborne, hand it off to departure, before granting another takeoff clearance?

Speaking as a US ATCer, most times, yes, if you work at an aiport not as busy as an LAX. However, it is not a requirement. If you're not using wake turbulence separation, for aircraft departing the same runway, we ATCers only need to ensure an aircraft does not begin takeoff roll until the other aircraft has departed and crossed the runway end or turned to avert any conflict. However, if you can determine distances by reference to suitable landmarks, the other aircraft needs only be airborne if the following minimum distance exists between aircraft:

1. When only Category I aircraft are involved- 3,000 feet.

2. When a Category I aircraft is preceded by a Category II aircraft- 3,000 feet.

3. When either the succeeding or both are Category II aircraft- 4,500 feet.

4. When either is a Category III aircraft- 6,000 feet.

5. When the succeeding aircraft is a helicopter, visual separation may be applied in lieu of using distance minima.


User currently offlineEchster From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 18756 times:

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 5):
....but if the aircraft that just landed is vacating the runway the tower can clear another aircraft for departure, it is called implied separation, or something like that.

One of my favorite tools when working in the tower.....anticipated separation.

From the FAAO 7110.65:

3-9-5. ANTICIPATING SEPARATION

Takeoff clearance needs not be withheld until prescribed separation exists if there is a reasonable assurance it will exist when the aircraft starts takeoff roll.


User currently offlineSilver1SWA From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 4737 posts, RR: 26
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 18577 times:
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Quoting Bluewhale18210 (Reply 14):
Don't controllers usually wait until one aircraft is airborne, hand it off to departure, before granting another takeoff clearance?

For takeoff clearance, yes. For position and hold, no. I never said being cleared for takeoff before a preceding aircraft is airborne is common. I was talking about entering the runway to get into position and hold until further clearance as soon as the preceding aircraft begins the takeoff roll. Often times aircraft will follow another (that has immediately started a takeoff roll) onto a runway as if it was just following along in the taxi sequence.

[Edited 2007-01-26 10:05:59]


ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineAg92 From India, joined Jul 2006, 1317 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 18543 times:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Unmuth-AirTeamImages VAP



There is a photo with two aircraft on the same runway

Regards


User currently offlineAirfoilsguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 18426 times:

Quoting Ag92 (Reply 22):


There is a photo with two aircraft on the same runway

Here is a photo of 39 planes on the same runway.  Smile



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Halifax International Airport



A plane can't land on the same runway that another is currently taking off from. The take off plane must be wheels off the runway before the landing plane is wheels on.


User currently offlineNWA ARJ From United States of America, joined May 2001, 547 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 18044 times:

Quoting RyDawg82 (Reply 18):
and I would also state, Caution Jetblast

I don't think that statement is in the 7110.65 which is the bible for us Air Traffic Controllers.



Nightmare 68, Fargo Tower, Runway 36, Fly Runway Heading, Mantain 10,000, Cleared For Takeoff, Change To Departure
25 Post contains images IAHFLYR : Nope....rule is departure has departed (wheels off) AND crossed the runway end or comply with the distances listed in the handbook 3,000', 4,500' or
26 2H4 : As is often the case in aviation, there are exceptions. I, for example, have touched down on the same runway at the same time as another aircraft, he
27 Post contains images IAHFLYR : Lets see....oh I know...had to be ADW, oh no, ahhh HOU, could have been, ahh maybe not, oh how about RSW with their runway being resurfaced and landi
28 Post contains images 2H4 : Nothing like sharing the pattern with three P-51s and a B-17... 2H4
29 IAHFLYR : Ahhhhuh.....drivin them!
30 AirTran717 : Too funny.
31 PHLapproach : To the original poster. I believe Im starting to understand the post. Granted alot of people are still caught up on the TIPH issue earlier. I believe
32 Post contains links and images N243NW : Sounds like OSH during AirVenture! http://flightlevel350.com/Aircraft_B...e_Midwest_Aviation_Video-5614.html How's this for separation? The YX pilot
33 N908AW : Heck, last time I flew outta MSP there was three of us on the runway..us position and hold full length, a learjet position and hold at taxiway W3, and
34 Ckfred : I was on an AA 757 waiting in line to takeoff from 32L at ORD last May. I was watching the aircraft ahead of us and noticed that as soon as a departin
35 GQfluffy : Looks like a taxiway to me.
36 Post contains images IAHFLYR : Perfect or even better than perfect......looks like IAH of old!
37 Mcdu : No controllers don't have to wait until the aircraft is airborne. The ORD controllers roll departures after the t/o aircraft is partially down the ru
38 Post contains images IAHFLYR : Please don't be telling them incorrect info......the only way that is done is when you are using the before mentioned in reply 31 and then it require
39 MPDPilot : I am not totally sure of the rules on this but I know at IWA where we have intersection departures mid-runway, with a 10000' runway, this has been fu
40 LTU932 : Well, that was an extreme exception, given that those planes had to divert somewhere, in this case to YHZ, when US airspace was shut down after the 9
41 Warreng24 : This happens ALL the time on PHX. If you sit at the far end of Terminal 2 concourse (near Gate 13); watch the action on 7L. You will usually see a lin
42 ArcrftLvr : How were you number #2 on arrival, if you were departing? I assume you mean, #2 for departure... Yes, as long as the second departing aircraft acknow
43 Post contains links Timz : This all happened on 25 January? Can anyone find them on http://www4.passur.com/lax.html ? I can't. (I think http://www.flightaware.com says AS 115 "l
44 Post contains links RyDawg82 : Trust me, I am pretty familiar with the point-65. I'd like refer you to the "controllers bible" to 2-1-20: Sure, generally wake turbulence is associa
45 IAHFLYR : Enough said....search 7110.65 and look at chapter 3. I'd love to see that definition. My only point with the .65 stuff is that is what the book calls
46 Phelpsie87 : Really? Interesting definition. BTW, 6000' is not the only separation: 3-9-6. SAME RUNWAY SEPARATION Separate a departing aircraft from a preceding d
47 LASOctoberB6 : LAS does it all the time
48 MPDPilot : I am just telling you what happens. I fly there multiple times a week and it is not uncommon. No need to get touchy. Well this is what I was told by
49 Timz : Funny thing about airliners.net (and discussion boards in general, maybe)-- whenever anybody asks whether so-and-so is allowed, or unusual, somebody
50 MPDPilot : I think your right, even though there are some of us who have seen it happen or even know it is ok, I don't think it happens all the time like some s
51 SaturnVRocket : I was on UAL155 from ORD-SFO the other night and of course I was listening to CH9. We had an ASA 737-800 in front of us who was cleared for takeoff an
52 Post contains images Silver1SWA : That would depend on the airport I suppose. At SAN, where there is only one runway, it is VERY common to see two planes follow each other onto the ru
53 Squakin1200 : I have actually landed with an airplane still on the runway that had landed seconds before me. This is legal, yes the tower allowed it, as long as the
54 Timz : No one's debating that. Everyone agrees that aircraft are cleared into position behind departing aircraft, all the time. (At least, everyone for the
55 MPDPilot : I am sorry I was refering to the closeness that was discribed in the thread starter. You are absolutely right that two aircraft on the runway is quit
56 Post contains links RyDawg82 : Air Traffic Control rules can get very complex and situational making it difficult for some spotters and/or passengers to tell the difference between
57 Iahflyr : Not saying it doesn't happen, simply the rule! I've probably seen more landings and take-offs in the last 5 yrs than most pilots see in a lifetime on
58 ReguPilot : Now that SJU is operating with just one runway, we get to see planes doing S turns even at less than 1,000ft of the runway to make up for a departing
59 P3Orion : For what it is worth, I was taught that as soon as the nose gear rotates the aircraft is to be considered "airborne." By the way, if you ask 100 contr
60 SandMFlyer : As an ATC'er (formerly of LAX TRACON) as well as an ATP'er. What wasn't mentioned was that the tower probably said maintain visual separation cleared
61 Phelpsie87 : I have never heard that one before. A quick search of the .65 proved to be useless. Are you saying that the take-off clearance would be something lik
62 RyDawg82 : This would only be said if the tower was going to release separation responsibility to the aircraft. When the tower clears an aircraft for takeoff usi
63 57AZ : Around here we'll occasionally have civilian aircraft in formation flight from one airport to another. If the aircraft check in individually, they are
64 Phelpsie87 : haha, I know what visual separation is. Thanks though. I was just saying that I have never heard be used in the case provided.
65 LAXspotter : Two planes on the runway at the same time are usual on runway 24L at LAX Usually in the afternoon hours at peak operations,the controller tells the So
66 Ktachiya : I don't know if the poster is limiting his answer to the United States but in NRT, or many other Japanese airports which is so slot restricted, its a
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Go Thru Transit...back On The Same Plane? posted Thu Aug 19 2004 16:48:10 by Sky0000547
Changing Flights On The Same Day posted Wed Apr 21 2004 03:59:35 by EmiratesA345
Different A/C You Have Flown On The Same Route posted Sun Mar 7 2004 00:56:09 by ElectraBob
Anyone Who Flew On The Same Day Flight? posted Sat Feb 7 2004 21:27:24 by ScottysAir