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Why No Business Class On US Domestic Flights?  
User currently offline8herveg From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 1171 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7794 times:

Could someone please tell me why in the US, the class of travel jumps from Economy up to First Class?

Shouldn't it be Business Class instead of First?

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCaptaink From Mexico, joined May 2001, 5109 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7786 times:

US doesn't offer First on transatlatic flights. THey offer Envoy, which is in effect Business Class. They have one row of ex First Class seats on the A330, but they are not sold as First Class seats. On domestic flights they offer Domestic First, which other airlines also offer, which is also the traditional way. Economy & First Class.

[Edited 2007-01-27 18:33:48]


There is something special about planes....
User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7786 times:

First and Economy have been the two traditional domestic classes of service. Business is of a recent invention dating back in its current form only as far back as the late 70's, and in the U.S. only available on three-class aircraft, or some limited routes where First is sold as Business.


International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineContinentalFan From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 356 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7773 times:

It's all an issue of terminology anyways... domestic USA "first" class is about the same as intra-European type business class product-wise, though some Euro business class looks more like Economy+, at least seatwise, don't know about the service.

User currently offline8herveg From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 1171 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7762 times:

Quoting Captaink (Reply 1):
US doesn't offer First on transatlatic flights. THey offer Envoy, which is in effect Business Class.

I think you mis-read the original post. I wrote

'Could someone please tell me why IN THE US, the class of travel jumps from Economy up to First Class?'

Not, could you tell me why US (as in US Airways!!).....


User currently offlineCaptaink From Mexico, joined May 2001, 5109 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7749 times:

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 4):
I think you mis-read the original post. I wrote

'Could someone please tell me why IN THE US, the class of travel jumps from Economy up to First Class?'

Not, could you tell me why US (as in US Airways!!).....

I so did misread your post. I just woke up, must be my morning blindness. Therefore response. What AeroWesty said is right. Big grin



There is something special about planes....
User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7750 times:

Quoting ContinentalFan (Reply 3):
domestic USA "first" class is about the same as intra-European type business class product-wise, though some Euro business class looks more like Economy+

What goes for Business within Europe is more like Y+, with better food and lounge access. It's nothing like U.S. domestic First, where even though service and amenities vary wildly, you'll always get a big seat with more legroom.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineContinentalFan From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 356 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7729 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
What goes for Business within Europe is more like Y+, with better food and lounge access. It's nothing like U.S. domestic First, where even though service and amenities vary wildly, you'll always get a big seat with more legroom.

When I read that there existed trick seats that turned from a row of three coach seats to two "business" seats on some Europe airlines, I was like "WTF?" I felt similarly when I read that some airlines sold coach seats as "business" class seats by simply not selling the center seat.


User currently offlineKFLLCFII From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3296 posts, RR: 30
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7702 times:

Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter):
Could someone please tell me why in the US, the class of travel jumps from Economy up to First Class?

Not in all cases.

There are a few domestic widebody flights that utilize Business Class:

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Ame...ican_Airlines_Boeing_777-200_P.php
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Uni...United_Airlines_Boeing_747-400.php



"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
User currently offline8herveg From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 1171 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7671 times:

Quoting ContinentalFan (Reply 7):
When I read that there existed trick seats that turned from a row of three coach seats to two "business" seats on some Europe airlines, I was like "WTF?" I felt similarly when I read that some airlines sold coach seats as "business" class seats by simply not selling the center seat.

Yep! Sounds like BA and Lufthansa. Makes you mad really considering what customers pay for it. I guess the food and general service is much better though, but BA for sure needs to do something about the seats. Don't know about LH.

Last time I travelled on BA within Europe, I was on a B767 on the way out, and a B737 on the way back. Both times I found it really hard to make out where the line was between Club and Euro class. I actually asked the FA if there was Club class on these flights and they said yes. There wasn't even a barrier between the two classes. I would be very angry if I had paid all that money and my seat just looked like an Economy one!!


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9164 posts, RR: 29
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7662 times:

well, there is no "economy" either, they call it coach.

The European concept of flexibility should be adopted by US carriers as well.It might give them some additonal revenue. I have been on A321's which were almost all business except 5 or 6 rows Y, Imagine the yield for the airline. The ride is comfortable, with the center seat blocked and with hte fold down tray table. Even on shortr flights loke FRA/LHR the food is excellent, not in terms of quantity but in terms of quality.

I prefer that over the US domestic "F" where, on a similar distance. you may get a wider seat and some pre-packed junk posing as food.

.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30584 posts, RR: 84
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7632 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter):
Could someone please tell me why in the US, the class of travel jumps from Economy up to First Class? Shouldn't it be Business Class instead of First?

In the United States, their is a tradition of referring to the premium cabin as "First Class" since at least the introduction of the 707 and DC-8. I can't speak of the piston-powered era, but from what I have seen, they appear to be a single class of service, just as it was on the Comet [I].

I believe "Business Class" first entered the domestic air travel lexicon with TWA in the very early 1980s, though I believe QF and SK were the first to introduce it, period. I recall flying in TW Business SEA-JFK-LHR and CDG-JFK-SEA in 1985 and recall UA advertisements for it on their international fleets in the early 1980s.

Business Class is available within the United States when airlines operate their international-config planes (be they two class or three class) on domestic runs. And those cabins are sold and marketed as "Business Class". Also, ATA calls their domestic premium product "Business Class", though it is equivalent to their competitors two-class domestic "First Class" product.

However, the long tradition and ingrained mindset within the US travelling public that the front of a plane is "First Class" will make it unlikely "Business Class" will enter the lexicon of the established majors for some time to come.


User currently offlineMGASJO From Nicaragua, joined Feb 2005, 463 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7628 times:

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 8):
Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter):
Could someone please tell me why in the US, the class of travel jumps from Economy up to First Class?

Not in all cases.

There are a few domestic widebody flights that utilize Business Class:

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Ame...ican_Airlines_Boeing_777-200_P.php
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Uni...0.php

In the case of AA's 777 flying domestically they are sold only as F/Y, the business seats are sold as coach and most of the times are reserved for top tier members



C208B
User currently offlineKFLLCFII From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3296 posts, RR: 30
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days ago) and read 7561 times:

Quoting MGASJO (Reply 12):
In the case of AA's 777 flying domestically they are sold only as F/Y, the business seats are sold as coach and most of the times are reserved for top tier members

So be it. He was simply asking why US domestic flights jump from economy to first, and I was merely showing that this isn't entirely true. (Regardless of how certain flights are sold or who the seats may be reserved for.)



"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7475 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
well, there is no "economy" either, they call it coach.

"Economy" and "Coach" are interchangeable terms within the U.S., some fare rules even list it as "Economy/Coach". While you're sitting on the plane, they'll most often refer to it as the "main cabin".

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
I prefer that over the US domestic "F" where, on a similar distance. you may get a wider seat and some pre-packed junk posing as food.

No doubt that airline to airline service levels will vary. I've had a full hot meal with bar service in "Business" sitting in a seat you'd find in "First" in the U.S. on a flight as short as between London and Amsterdam, but in the U.S. I'll get a meal in First based solely upon the length of my flight, the time of day, and perhaps even the type of aircraft (whether it has ovens/full galley or not).



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineCaptaink From Mexico, joined May 2001, 5109 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7447 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 14):
main cabin

I prefer that term, i feel less broke when I hear it. Big grin



There is something special about planes....
User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2987 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7426 times:

i think the best response to this is that there is no First Class on domestic routes anymore. It's been watered down so much that it's a domestic Business Class product at best.

They call it First, but it ain't the First we used to have.



Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7382 times:

AirTran and ATA (On the a/c that have been converted) refer to their front cabins as business class. Some airlines have don't even refer to it as first or business class. Spirit calls theirs "Spirit Plus" and Vanguard referred to theirs as "SkyBox".

There is some three cabin domestic service in the US. If you happen to be on one of United's Premium Service routes (JFK-SFO, JFK-LAX), it is a three cabin layout (First/Business/Economy Plus). They also offer the Economy Plus cabin on some of their a/c types as well, but the main difference between Economy Plus and the regular economy class is the Economy+ seats have several more inches of pitch.


User currently offlineCsturdiv From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1448 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7382 times:

Back in September 2001 (about 2 weeks after 9/11) I flew Business Class on AA from SAN to ORD, I think it was on a B763 that went onto CDG. My company's travel agent booked me on economy, but upon checking in at SAN, they bumped me up to Business. I did not complain.  Smile


Posting from somewhere between KORD and KRFD
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30584 posts, RR: 84
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7317 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I should note that UA refers to their domestic First Class product as "Business Class" on flights to MEX and perhaps other Latin American destinations not served with true three-class equipment.

User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7142 times:

Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter):
Could someone please tell me why in the US, the class of travel jumps from Economy up to First Class?

Delta.com list two ATL/LAX flights with Business, Flt 110 and 189. Didn't need to check any further.


User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7111 times:

All terminology is inconsistent. "Business class" certainly isn't consistent between longhaul and shorthaul, either.

So we would have to have five -- or more -- designations. Oy!

Steve


User currently offline8herveg From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 1171 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7068 times:

Have to say it is very confusing between each airline. The terms used seem different for each airline, whether it is 'First Class', 'Business Class', 'Premium Economy', 'Economy Plus' etc etc. More often than not, an Economy Plus seat on one airline, for example, might be very similar to a First Class seat on another airline, with similar service.

I know each airline is going to be individual and have its own structure, but I really think all North American carriers should use the same class structure. In Europe, it seems to work very well. This example isn't for every airline and/or flight, but mostly it works as the following:

Domestic Flights: Economy

European: Economy, Business

International: Economy, Economy Plus, Business, First (Economy Plus & First being optional)


User currently offlineNomadic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 425 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7014 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
I believe "Business Class" first entered the domestic air travel lexicon with TWA in the very early 1980s, though I believe QF and SK were the first to introduce it, period. I recall flying in TW Business SEA-JFK-LHR and CDG-JFK-SEA in 1985 and recall UA advertisements for it on their international fleets in the early 1980s.

Yes TWA was the the first to offer domestic business class, marketed as 'Ambassador Class'. It was available on the trans-continental segment of wide body flights continuing to or from Europe. I flew Ambassador class on a 747 SFO JFK (continuing to CDG) and on a 767 JFK LAX (originating in FCO).

Ambassador Class was also avaiable on select L-1011 flights. There were a few periods when 'C' class was even available on some shorter routes, depending seasonality and equipmet assignments. I belive you could have flown JFK-DEN, JFK-ORD, ORD-LAS and JFK-STL-LAX in Ambassador Class.


nomadic :?)


User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6992 times:

Quoting Nomadic (Reply 23):
Ambassador Class was also avaiable on select L-1011 flights.

Ambassador Class was on all the L-1011s. Domestic L-1011s were 2x4x2 and International L-1011s were 2x2x2. It's debatable if TWA was the first to offer it domestically or not, since Pan Am had Clipper Class in 1978 (as regular coach seating) before Ambassador Class came into being, the first year they were eligible to fly domestic routes.



International Homo of Mystery
25 UAL777UK : UA have F, J and Y+ on their PS Service of course
26 8herveg : What exactly is a Premium Service? Is it something only within North America?
27 Post contains links AeroWesty : http://www.unitedps.com/main.html Yup, and only in the JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO markets.
28 Albird87 : Here is a question..... On AA domestic they call it first class but when you fly down to the caribbean they then change the name to buisness when its
29 Bombayhog : It changes to 'business' on Caribbean flights simply because the 'first' designator on "international" routes is used only to designate actual intern
30 AA757200 : See above regarding MIA - LAX. Also, AA has three class flagship service between JFK and SFO / LAX. It is a yield question, as are all operated fligh
31 Continental123 : Spirit only has business class and not first.
32 Airbazar : It's all a matter of marketing because domestic F certainly ain't anywhere like what you'll find for business class service around the World with the
33 Expressjetphx : I would say that the terms 'Business' and 'First' are generally interchangeable, at least in terms of domestic US narrowbody or two-class service. Som
34 Baw716 : 8herveg, I often wonder myself. I have proposed it a number of times during my career; been shot down every time. The thing is, there are never enough
35 DeltAirlines : Domestic F is still pretty paltry pickings. I'm mostly on DL now (although have taken a few flights on NW and AA in F in the past 6 months) and unless
36 MSYtristar : Pan Am was also one of the pioneers in terms uf U.S Business Class service with its "Clipper Class" on all 747's and I believe A300/310's.
37 EvilForce : I believe the business class product was offered to sate government and corp fliers. Keep in mind the US Govt has regulations of which class an employ
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