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Frontier CEO Says California Route Has Been Slow  
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24870 posts, RR: 46
Posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7067 times:

Not much of a surprise to many, but Frontier seemingly remains hopeful.


Frontier CEO says California route has been slow

Seven months into an attempt to expand further beyond Denver with Los Angeles-San Francisco flights, Frontier Airlines chief executive Jeff Potter admits that the route is currently slow.

The Los Angeles-San Francisco route "is slow," but the company expected it to be, Potter said during the company's earnings conference call this morning following its report yesterday of a record $14.4 million loss in the quarter ended in December.

Frontier is going up against tough competition on the California route, including United and American Airlines out of San Francisco and Southwest Airlines out of Oakland.

"I think it's been a place that I still believe is going to be successful in the long term," Potter said, calling the route "a strategic investment" that is different from the Los Angeles "focus city" effort.


http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_5094305


For the record the LAX-SFO route gets downgraded from 5 A319s to 1 A319 and 3 EMB170s when the Republic Airways flying commences late spring and mentioned in the following other thread.
Republics F9 Routes Posted On Flyfrontier.com (by ExpressJet_ERJ Jan 22 2007 in Civil Aviation)


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCopaair737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7049 times:

I think they'll stick with it. Eventually, if it doesn't pan out for them, like if the reduced capacity on it still isn't helping anything, I think you'll see it get chefcanned.
How is SFO-LAS doing for them?

-Copa


User currently offlineAeroflot777 From Russia, joined Mar 2004, 3006 posts, RR: 27
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7048 times:

I think this could have been foreseen. They were tapping a market that was already quite strong. Especially with so many flights between the two cities. Just doesn't seem like it is a money maker for them.

We'll see what happens in the future.

Aeroflot777


User currently offlineAlexPorter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6973 times:

Normally, Frontier commands passengers with its service premium (in Economy class) over other airlines. However, its LAX-SFO route competes with jetBlue's LGB-OAK route. This means that jetBlue has the best service (in economy) between Los Angeles and San Francisco (city pairs, not airport pairs). So I'm guessing that a lot of potential Frontier customers wind up on jetBlue instead.

User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2915 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6930 times:

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 3):
So I'm guessing that a lot of potential Frontier customers wind up on jetBlue instead.

Maybe, maybe not. Most passengers betwen Norcal and Socal want frequency, segments/miles and price. IFE, service etc. doesn't carry the same weight on a one hour flight than it does for longer haul. I think the loyalists who prefer OAK over SFO will choose WN (or B6) since they are most likely to be Rapid Rewards/True Blue(?) members. At SFO, they are most likely UA/AA members. If price and schedule are somewhat equal on such a short flight, the majority will use their preferred carriers.

I am hopeful F9 can make it work although downgrading to EMB's might not be a good sign.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17354 posts, RR: 46
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6895 times:

They ran a whopping 31% load factor in October 06...down from their peak load factor of 44% in their first month of operation, June 06.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9603 posts, RR: 69
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6849 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Just curious why someone would say Jetblue has a better service that Frontier? What is better about it, exactly?

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6815 times:
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Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
Not much of a surprise to many, but Frontier seemingly remains hopeful.

As I said before, throw whatever you want at it, but they're still flying the route.

 Smile

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6098 posts, RR: 23
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6758 times:

How is JetBlue any better Alex? Also, many more people fly from LAX then LGB. The competition is with AA,UA,and WN.

As for F9 service. I non-reved on them today and once again, fantastic! CAK-DEN-LAX

ASLAX



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24870 posts, RR: 46
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6739 times:

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 2):
Especially with so many flights between the two cities.

 checkmark The LA basin to Bay Area is one of the most competitive markets in the US which F9 is going up against.

There are about 200 daily flights (SWA alone is about 110) between the various airports by the likes of United, Southwest and American in addition to Alaska and Jetblue whom all enjoy strong name recognition and frequent flyer loyalty.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 7):
As I said before, throw whatever you want at it, but they're still flying the route.

True, but obviously loosing at it. At least moving down to the E170s should provide some improvement by better matching pax loads to cost.

After 7 months in the market, F9 still is selling its $59 introductory fares being unable to move to its planned $79 / $99 fare levels. In addition the carrier in November rolled out a buy 3 get 1 free offer on the market which seems to get extended month after month and is now good thru the end of February.
http://www.frontierairlines.com/fron...essionid=3a328b7f3f17ae338b3391329



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6692 times:
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Quoting Laxintl (Reply 9):
After 7 months in the market, F9 still is selling its $59 introductory fares being unable to move to its planned $79 / $99 fare levels. In addition the carrier in November rolled out a buy 3 get 1 free offer on the market which seems to get extended month after month and is now good thru the end of February.

Um - yes, you have said much of this before, in other threads. More than once.

I'm puzzled that this Frontier route concerns you so much, but for whatever reasons, be they financial or strategic, as Mr. Potter says (and I have tried to indicate to you), the bottom line remains - they are still flying the route.

 Smile

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAirWillie6475 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 2448 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6657 times:

Frontier is out of place that is why they are struggling. First of all Southwest will dilute what ever traffic there is between LAX and SFO and vice versa. Most Southwest flyers of LA will try to avoid LAX. 1st choice will be BUR, ONT, SNA, then LAX for travel to the bay area. That leaves the UA/AA/JB members, they will of course go with their respective airlines. That leaves a small confused group for Frontier.

User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39704 posts, RR: 75
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6643 times:

I flew Frontier last weekend SFO-LAX and back.
I was impressed with there flight and there service. Best of all, there was only 14 people on the flight.  Smile

OK I know that's not good for the airline but great if you're a passenger.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineRocANDtpa From United States of America, joined May 2006, 106 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6597 times:

Service Differences B6 and F9

B6 has the better seat pitch with 34/36 for B6 and 33 for F9

B6 has the better in-flight entertainment with free direct tv, free xm music and movies for a fee. F9 has direct tv for a $5 fee

F9 has the better food with wraps and other "real" food on some flights. B6 has only unhealthy snacks

F9 has better seat width at 18" B6 is 17.8"

Looks pretty equal depending on what is most important to the flyer


User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9603 posts, RR: 69
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6574 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

F9 has smaller planes, which means I get on and off faster Big grin

User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24870 posts, RR: 46
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days ago) and read 6488 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 10):
I'm puzzled that this Frontier route concerns you so much

I just strongly feel F9 is out their league and simply in the wrong market.

There a countless markets that F9 could likely do well as part of becoming less Denver centric, however entering the LAX-SFO race was suicidal.

With such thinking F9 should also have considered entering some other markets such has Chicago-NYC or the Northeast Shuttle corridor for good measure.

F9 should do wonderfully playing a low key card going after many less frequently served markets, just as they have done with Mexico over the years. Entering one of the top city pairs in the US not only brings them undue attention in the eyes of the Big Boys, it also clearly costing them loads of money.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6341 times:

First of all, the drive between parts of the LA Basin and N. California can be made rather quickly, if you drive fast. For the people that live in SFO, it can easily be a 1 hour drive to get to OAK, negating some of the effects of lower prices. Same with LGB. There is not many attractions close to the area. When you do interstate flying in Cali you will usually get to the closest airport to your destination, not go an hour out of the way. I don't see F9 competing with B6, they are competing with UA and AA.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 9):
The LA basin to Bay Area is one of the most competitive markets in the US which F9 is going up against.

Many have tried, and few winners have been declared.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 15):
however entering the LAX-SFO race was suicidal.

They could have picked an underserved market, and LAX/SFO in its many routes its NOT.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6316 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 15):
I just strongly feel F9 is out their league and simply in the wrong market.

That's an opinion. Clearly, Frontier, like Air New Zealand on their money losing trans-Tasman routes, sees a strategic, that is intangible, value.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 15):
With such thinking F9 should also have considered entering some other markets such has Chicago-NYC or the Northeast Shuttle corridor for good measure.

JetBlue did that. And copped a deal of flak for it. But Frontier perceives itself as a western airline, they have avoided he east coast blood bath. But they can't avoid them all - unless they just stick to Nebraska.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 15):
. Entering one of the top city pairs in the US not only brings them undue attention in the eyes of the Big Boys,

Many think they should not take on Southwest and many think they shouldn't take on the big boys. Several here expect AA to retailate over DFW-MZT, for example. Difficult, if not impossible, to avoid them all.

So - Frontier should stick to Nebraska, perhaps?

But if SFO-LAX was such a mistake, why is SFO-LAS not?

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 15):
it also clearly costing them loads of money.

I doubt it is as much as you think and I doubt anyone here could put a figure on it, nor can anyone here quantify intangible value.

Both Mr. Potter and Mr. Happ have laid out their thinking in the article you linked. If you disagree, fine, but you are then disagreeing with an overall strategy and not just a route.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineJetBlueNYFL From United States of America, joined May 2006, 274 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6267 times:

Quoting RocANDtpa (Reply 13):
F9 has the better food with wraps and other "real" food on some flights. B6 has only unhealthy snacks

The other "real" food on F9 is NOT free. You can bring any food you wish on jetBlue flights and enjoy the free unlimited variety of name brand snacks as a supplement...in addition to hot soup and Dunkin Donuts coffee. Small snack boxes are offered on longer flights and often free alcohol for jetBlue AMEX cardholders.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 14):
F9 has smaller planes, which means I get on and off faster

jetBlue offers front AND rear boarding/deplaning in many markets!



jetBlue...Bringing Humanity Back To Air Travel!
User currently offlineBicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6244 times:

Mariner...with all due respect because I think you're very knowledgeable and reasonable but you need to get some perspective on Frontier. It seems to be an airline in search of an identity and a reason for existence. United and now Southwest are hurting them in Denver. Can't they find a better route to use an E170 rather than a money losing route in California? Isn't there somewhere else they can expand? I still think they are a good takeover target. Someone can come in, take their planes and dump their routes.

Just my armchair opinion.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6245 times:
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Quoting JetBlueNYFL (Reply 18):
The other "real" food on F9 is NOT free.

What is "NOT free"?:

http://www.frontierairlines.com:80/f...r/flight-info/inflight-catering.do

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineA330300 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 6214 times:

Quoting JetBlueNYFL (Reply 18):
jetBlue offers front AND rear boarding/deplaning in many markets!

Frontier also uses rear deplaning where available - CUN and SJC come into mind.

Quoting JetBlueNYFL (Reply 18):
The other "real" food on F9 is NOT free.



Quoting JetBlueNYFL (Reply 18):
Small snack boxes are offered on longer flights and often free alcohol for jetBlue AMEX cardholders.

Frontier offers a complimentary snack basket on longer hauls from Denver to the east, wraps on most Cancun flights, warm cookies on redeyes, warm breakfast sandwiches from Anchorage, and a light snack on medium hauls - all complimentary.

In addition, Frontier provides complimentary alcoholic beverages to Summit level EarlyReturns members.

[Edited 2007-01-30 02:32:14]

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 6182 times:
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Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 19):
but you need to get some perspective on Frontier.

Thank you for your condescending advice. Another Frontier should stick to Nebraska theorist, perhaps?

Frontier lost money this last quarter in DEN - because of the storms. Prior to that the FY was profitable for them.

But gee - United lost $40 million last quarter - because of those same storms.

???

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAirmike2 From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 33 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 6159 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 22):
Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 19):
but you need to get some perspective on Frontier.

Thank you for your condescending advice. Another Frontier should stick to Nebraska theorist, perhaps?

No, Mariner -- YOU are condescending -- to anyone who has a different opinion on Frontier. You talk "down" to most everyone. Just look at the
way you write your posts and get a grip.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 6150 times:
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Quoting Airmike2 (Reply 23):
No, Mariner -- YOU are condescending -- to anyone who has a different opinion on Frontier. You talk "down" to most everyone. Just look at the
way you write your posts and get a grip.

Thank you for your advice, too. Or was it just a statement.

Anyone can have a "different oipinion" on Frontier than I. But it's nice when they back it up with facts.

mariner



aeternum nauta
25 AirMike2 : You really have a high opinion of yourself don't you?
26 Mariner : Not much anyone can say to that, is there? I have no idea what has brought on this little attack from you, but - present me with facts that disprove
27 AirMike2 : It's not a matter of facts or trying to disprove anything. I'm sure you're very knowledgable. However, the way you talk to people is less than, well,
28 Mariner : Once again, there seems little I can say. I'm not about to change and this writing style that you object to has gven me a great career. But if saying
29 RW717 : By the way, how is the SFO-LAS route doing? I noticed that they are going to 2x daily soon.
30 AirMike2 : That statement says alot about you.
31 Mariner : The CEO was asked about this specific route on the conference call last week and he said it is doing "quite well" - which is why is why they are addi
32 DIA77 : You are obviously very new to airliners.net (based on the fact that you joined in December). I have followed Mariner's posts for the last several yea
33 AirportGuy1971 : An unprovoked attack on a respected user such as Mariner says a lot about you... Mariner isn't afraid or unwilling to to point out when F9 blunders.
34 AlexPorter : Why is everyone talking about Frontier's food service? LAX-SFO is not long enough for food, so it's beverage only. I'm not sure if B6 gives out snacks
35 DL777LAX : Have you ever BEEN to LA? do you know what the traffic is like between LAX and LGB on the 405? It can take at least an hour at any given moment durin
36 Post contains links FATFlyer : That statement says alot about you. Knowing mariner's real world identity his statement is very true. I wish my writing had given me a quarter of his
37 AS739X : DL777LAX. Thank you for clearing this up for Alex. And I dont know what the UA hub had anything to do with the point I made to him. Alex your completl
38 Post contains images AirplaneBoy : Greetings AlexPorter!   Just a clarification...the DirecTV service is complimentary on all F9 flights between LAX and SFO. A recurring topic between
39 Ikramerica : Not yet. But they will. Right now it averages out to be the same on most aircraft. 32/34 averages to 33. They were advertising the greater seat pitch
40 Post contains images AlexPorter : Thanks for the smile! I needed that. Why is this? Because the flights are less than an hour? I know I get charged on PHX-DEN which is only about a ha
41 Post contains images AirplaneBoy : I'm sorry. I forgot to add that they are complimentary on the LAX-SFO corridor for promotional purposes. Cheers!
42 Rampart : Not to mention, he has one of the longest "Respected User" lists I've ever seen. That would be out of genuine respect, as opposed to political or nat
43 AwysBSB : Why does F9 make no partnership to improve the results on California routes? AQ could be a good code-share partner for F9 flights between DEN and SAN,
44 Rdwelch : AirMike2 might want to reconsider what his idea of a debate would be as opposed to a personal attack. Gus
45 Post contains images Shane : Why not SFO-SAN instead? We all know Southwest does this in a big way from the East Bay, but isn't UA the only one doing it from SFO and often with r
46 Laxintl : Alaska does SFO-SAN. 4 flight per day.
47 Shane : I stand corrected. Do any of you think there's still room for another carrier on this route?
48 Quickmover : I see F9's dilema as being very similar to Airtran's. Both have a big presence in their home hubs (ATL, DEN). Neither have been entirely successful at
49 F9Animal : You know Airplaneboy, you are a darned good at your sales! LOL! Where did you learn to push the Early Returns? Your a heck of a worker, and I have no
50 ScottB : Well, sort of -- except they'd still have the problem you alluded to of limited growth prospects outside of what would then be two primary hubs. Perh
51 Mariner : I guess eventually both will come, but equally, it may not matter. If there is to be any expansion of California service - and it is more than likely
52 MSYtristar : If anything, LAX-SFO is a way to simply put some aircraft to use, maybe make break even, and enhance F9's brand awareness in the markets. Five flights
53 PanAm747 : True, but getting OUT of the L.A. area can be a nightmare in and of itself...and just from the Santa Clarita/Magic Mountain/Castaic area, it's an hou
54 Post contains images Superfly : Man you drive slow. I am glad that Frontier is an alternative when United is all booked up, too expensive or doesn't suit my schedule.
55 Post contains images Mariner : Sounds right to me. Frontier's fortunes will not be made or broken by LAX-SFO. The other issue is that there are ao many variables and so many unknow
56 DL777LAX : Well, the trouble is, what would XXX be? From, what i know about SBA in general, for instant, i remember hearing that the city would buy a biz jet to
57 Post contains images Mariner : I dunno, sorry. I am only asuming they pitched SBA-DEN (it would seem likely) but all I know for a fact is that they did pitch somewhere and got a po
58 Flyinryan99 : With everyone saying this route is doomed with sad load factors I haven't heard if anyone mentioned if there is a corporate contract involved. That co
59 Post contains images AirplaneBoy : Thanks F9Animal! In my 3 years at F9, I can honestly say that I have always been proud to work here. For as long as I've been on A.net, I have mentio
60 Coronado990 : I am pretty sure one of the things F9 wants to accomplish is attracting the "circle trip" passenger that fly DEN-LAX-SFO-DEN or DEN-SFO-LAX-DEN. A per
61 Ikramerica : That's hogwash. The city of San Francisco proper is the only place where this is remotely true, and that is a small city. The car is a vital part of
62 Post contains images A330300 : A few of my points... AirplaneBoy, Good to hear I'm not the only one plugging new routes over the PA! Frontier's product is one of the best in the ind
63 AlexPorter : I accept your apology - thanks. And I'm sorry for making such assumptions about LA traffic. I get frustrated when the first thing people ask me when
64 Post contains links and images Mariner : Virgin America does not yet have its certificate, but has announced the first six cities: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070131/dcw02... They are: San Fr
65 Sllevin : I'd like to see Frontier advertise the route more...I live in the Bay Area and I still think few people are aware that Frontier flies the route. I sti
66 PanAm747 : And that is exactly my point. SAN FRANCISCO, not the outlying suburbs, has fewer cars per capita than Southern California. Sorry that I did not make
67 Pdxcof9 : They should do a PDX-CUN. If it comes in at about 9pm the international gates will be open. And I'm sure loads will be really good. Especailly if they
68 Stapleton : Frontier is obviously taking a calculated risk in the California market but they are not betting the farm. Analyst after analyst mentions Frontier's d
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