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US Needs Liquor License To Fly Over New Mexico  
User currently offlineUalcsr From United States of America, joined May 2006, 485 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 11674 times:

Here's the link...
http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/ss/local/40192.php

Can someone fill in the gaps here? I'm pretty certain that there are regulations about opening/serving liquor while on the ground, but I would have thought airspace was federally regulated and therefore, not subject to state liquor licensing.

42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4104 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 11632 times:

Quoting Ualcsr (Thread starter):
Can someone fill in the gaps here? I'm pretty certain that there are regulations about opening/serving liquor while on the ground, but I would have thought airspace was federally regulated and therefore, not subject to state liquor licensing.

Why then do the airlines routinely pay overflight taxes to states and counties? Utah is a classic example of this practice. Also if you think New Mexico is bad for liquor control issues and taxation, take a look sometime at what neighboring Utah is like!



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineHPLASOps From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 11626 times:

Well actually, the article doesn't say we need the license to serve alcohol "over New Mexico," but rather flights to and from New Mexico, or in essence, just ABQ. I've never heard of such law, and according to the article, every other major carrier serving ABQ has one. We've been serving ABQ for at least 18 years, it seems like the only reason they care now is because some dude was busted for d/d and was seen drinking on our flight earlier that day (so that means it's our fault he was driving drunk, right?). I have no idea if other states have similar laws, and if this law was put into place recently, but my hunch says the governor of NM has a grudge against us for some reason.

User currently offlineUalcsr From United States of America, joined May 2006, 485 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 11605 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 1):
Why then do the airlines routinely pay overflight taxes to states and counties?

I wasn't familiar with this procedure. Are UA, AA, DL, etc., licensed in all 50 states? Thanks in advance.


User currently offlineUalcsr From United States of America, joined May 2006, 485 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 11544 times:

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 2):
Well actually, the article doesn't say we need the license to serve alcohol "over New Mexico," but rather flights to and from New Mexico, or in essence, just ABQ.

It says..."They should not be selling alcohol while in New Mexico airspace", which I think would mean they can't sell alcohol while flying over New Mexico. (But can they serve it? Is there a "first class" exemption to the law because liquor's free up there?) Actually, I agree with you, another example of passing the buck. I can't understand how this one example would be US' fault but if other airlines have the license, why wouldn't US?


User currently offlineUsair320 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 991 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 11528 times:

Wow....As an NM resident and having known MRS.Bapst herself(the d/d's wife)) This is at fault of MR .Bapst not US Airways. why dosent Mr. Richardson look at the obviouse. It could happen on AA, DL,F9, WN, UA, NW, YX any airline not just US.

User currently offlineFlyboy7974 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 1540 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 11498 times:

this issue does come up once in a blue moon. Being HP elite, I use to fly their LAS night hub almost every week as I could get back home to PHX for the Prescott drive instead of having to overnight where I was working, and about 97-98 right HP was prohibited from serving preflight drinks for about a month because a police officer had witnessed a f/a serving a minor in first class. He viewed the serve and then carded the minor and then approached the f/a and her as well as the airline were hit with the violation. I remembered it because we were parked next to the flight at gate B2 and the a/c was in at B1 and with all the commotion, we were stuck as all the reps were moved over for about 20/30 minute to handle the situation.

Days after and about 3 weeks after, HP wasn't allowed alcoholic preflight bev and they were telling first class pax that it was because of pax intoxication and state law, no, it was pending the court date for the f/a and HP violation to go to court and be rectified, which, with a huge fine was, and it all became just a slap on the hand.


User currently offlineHPLASOps From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 11488 times:

Here's the whole paragraph:

Quote:
"We're interpreting it to apply to all US Airways flights scheduled to arrive in or depart from New Mexico," Lopez said of the order. "They should not be selling alcohol while in New Mexico airspace."

The first part is a tangible aviation concept of which the state gov can regulate. The second part of his quote is just puffery and riff raff to make it seems like he's important. If any part of a flight goes over New Mexico: A) how would the flight attendants know exactly when that is so they can stop serving, and B)what the hell good would that do if alcohol could be served in Arizona and Texas airspace but not New Mexico - you're not really creating any benefit from such law, only causing annoyance. You are right, airspace is federal and out of New Mexico's control, so what he says about serving alcohol over his state is pure b.s. Would every Central and South American airline flying to DEN need to get this license too?


User currently offlineUalcsr From United States of America, joined May 2006, 485 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 11446 times:

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 7):
If any part of a flight goes over New Mexico: A) how would the flight attendants know exactly when that is so they can stop serving, and B)what the hell good would that do if alcohol could be served in Arizona and Texas airspace but not New Mexico - you're not really creating any benefit from such law, only causing annoyance.

I was thinking the same thing. I can just see the flight attendants hovering in the galley while crossing New Mexico airspace!! This just all seems like some misplaced, political (and irresponsible) b.s.


User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2987 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 11332 times:

Many, many years ago while I worked for Eastern Air Lines, I was working a very delayed flight (about 5 hours) at New Orleans and the Customer Service manager came on board and asked us to wheel the liquor cart up to the gate area. We (the crew) all looked at each other but did what he asked.

Within 15 minutes, the New Orleans Police Department was on hand to stop us from serving liquor. We A) lacked a license, and B) did not have the required franchise rights to serve liquor on the airport premesis. The Ionosphere Club was covered by a vendor's liquor license somehow...it's Louisiana..anything is possible.

We promptly put that cart away! I never heard of it happening anywhere else.



Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
User currently offlineABQ747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 850 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 11235 times:

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 2):
but my hunch says the governor of NM has a grudge against us for some reason.

Remember that Richardson is running for President. I wouldn't be surprised if he is only doing this for publicity.

[Edited 2007-01-30 06:15:25]


The reason New Mexico is so windy is because Texas sucks and Arizona blows.
User currently offlineJetJeanes From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 11152 times:

Pull out of abq and let greyhound in


i can see for 80 miles
User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20730 posts, RR: 62
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 11106 times:

I remember something like this happening in Kansas. I looked on the web and found a couple of references to it. It had to do with the Kansas law on serving alcohol by the drink:

http://news.pacificnews.org/news/vie...d=2d733ecce53e2da5412210687e73a330

"Around the time of my high school graduation, the state elected a religiously correct Attorney General named Vern Miller. As sheriff of Sedgewick County, he earned a statewide reputation in violent confrontations with civil rights protesters at a Wichita high school. Once Attorney General, he conducted high profile, middle-of-the-night drug raids at the University of Kansas in Lawrence. A few people were irritated by his grandstanding with the press, but most people loved it and his ratings soared.

Then Miller tried to bust the airlines and Amtrak for serving liquor while crossing Kansas -- which forbids selling liquor by the drink -- claiming, "Kansas goes all the way up, and Kansas goes all the way down." This made the state the butt of national jokes. Miller's next moves were a disaster. He raided gamblers in VFW, American Legion and private halls, and even threatened church bingo games. His state political career fizzled, and the laws he rigorously enforced were repealed."


http://www.lawrence.com/news/2006/ja...ced_its_fair_share_movers_shakers/

"Vern Miller, who as attorney general gained notoriety in Lawrence for jumping out of car trunks during drug busts. Miller also attracted national attention when he forbid airlines from serving liquor on flights over Kansas."



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineHPLASOps From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 11079 times:

Westy,

Were those actual laws put into place by Miller, or were they merely just his own wishes that he extremely vocalized? Neither of those two articles made it clear that those were officially laws, but rather some crazy ideas made up by some kook of an attorney general.


User currently offlineLincoln From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3887 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 11058 times:

I'm not a lawyer, but I find this very hard to beleive would be enforceable:

49 USC § 40103(a)(1): The United States Government has exclusive sovereignty of airspace of the United States.

Section 101(a) The Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 prohibits any "State or political subdivision thereof" from "enact[ing] or enforce[ing] any law [...] relating to rates, routes, or services of any air carrier having authority under subchapter IV of this chapter to provide air transportation."

Courts have consistantly and broadly enforced the plain language of this section:

DAN MORALES, ATTORNEY GENERAL OF TEXAS, PETITIONER v. TRANS WORLD AIRLINES, INC., et al. (1992) -- The Supreme Court held that state "disceptive advertising" laws were preempted as related to the rates, routes, or services of an airline.

AMERICAN AIRLINES, INC., PETITIONER v. MYRON WOLENS ET AL.
ON WRIT OF CERTIORARI TO THE SUPREME COURT OF ILLINOIS (1995) -- Illinois consumer fraud statute inapplicable to changes American made to AAdvantage because it related to the "rates, routes, or services".

Also, a government agency is on record (44 Fed. Reg. 9948, 9949 (1979)) that "[The prohibition] extends to all of the economic factors that go into the provision of the quid pro quo for passenger's fare, including flight frequency and timing, liability limits, reservation and boarding practices, insurance, smoking rules, meal service, entertainment, bonding and corporate financing....”

Clearly, the service of alcohol in flight is related to the "...services..." of an airline -- if things as menial as meal service and boarding practices are specifically included, no regulation at the state level would stand up to court challenge -- and I don't think it would be long before it was challenged. (Service on the ground -- especially at the gate area could be a whole 'nother can of worms).

Sigh. There are days where I wish I would have persued law school. Law can be so much fun  Smile

Lincoln
(And any real lawyers, feel free to correct me!)



CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20730 posts, RR: 62
Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 11046 times:

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 13):
Were those actual laws put into place by Miller, or were they merely just his own wishes that he extremely vocalized?

I believe the ones he was enforcing against the airlines and Amtrak were actual old laws on the books. States have some rather arcane alcohol laws, for instance in Utah, I believe you still have to be a member of an drinking club to get hard alcohol by the drink, and have to ask for a wine list in a restaurant, it can't be offered to you (I'm sure if I'm a bit fuzzy on the particulars of that someone will correct me on it).

When I briefly worked for a hotel here in Oregon, it was unlawful for a bar to serve booze that had been given to them (such as from a liquor distributor), and the minibars in the rooms had signs stating the minibar was closed between 2 and 6am (even though that theoretically could never be enforced).



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineTransWorldSTL From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 568 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 11042 times:

Well, if Mr.Governor wants to be an idiot, then I think US should pull out of ABQ, then see how things go.

User currently offline57AZ From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2550 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 10839 times:

They are just enforcing the state law. Back when Class One Railroads operated their own passenger services, the steward in charge of the club/lounge car was responsible for seeing that the liquor/alcohol locker was sealed when passing through jurisdictions where liquor or alcohol sales/serving was prohibited. Each railroad provided it's food service staff with a list of where and when liquor/alcoholic beverages could not be sold or dispensed. Amtrak still provides those instructions to their stewards. Also, railroad dining cars and commissary facilities fall under the jurisdiction of the state level departments of health. Don't forget that a lot of airlines offer drinks to their premium customers while on the ground at the gate. In that situation the arguement can be made that their aircraft are also subject to local laws pertaining to alcoholic beverages and food service standards as they are then clearly in the jurisdiction of the local agencies.


"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
User currently offlineNecigrad From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 10777 times:

It's always been understood that it is the NATIONAL Airspace System, and thus is regulated by the FEDERAL Government. This has been proven time and again when Ststes try to do many things aviation related, such as "no fly zones". Any aircraft when in flight is in the NAS and should (in theory) be able to give any State the finger. Where this MIGHT come into play is on the ground. I don't know how that would be handled. If an aircraft is on the ground it's in the State, not the NAS, and I don't kow what authority over the matter each (State vs. Federal) has. In theory, I could see a State being able to prohibit an aircraft from serving alcohol while in the State (not the NAS). This might also apply to posession with intent to distribute/serve, etc.

Now that that's out of the way, I know HPs aircraft have liquor licenses on board for at least one State, either Nebraska or Wyoming, I can't remember which.

The whole LA example about wheeling a cart out to the lobby is a perfect example of the second part of my speel. The airlines are not (for the most part, some clubs would be exceptions) licensed to sell liquor in the State, so they can't, not even for free. How they can serve first class on the ground I dunno either.


User currently offlineIADLHR From Italy, joined Apr 2005, 735 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 10674 times:

I am sure this is payback time for US from the state of New Mexico. I dont know all the details from the incident that happened several months ago. Apparently the key to the whole argument is that the passenger was, allegedly, visibly drunk on the flight to ABQ. When the flight landed in ABQ and the passengers were disembarking, a FA allegedly expressed concern that the passenger was even too drunk to get off the plane of his own accord. For several months, in ABQ, people were wondering where he went from the time he got off the plane to the time of the accident. Apparently that mystery has been solved or so it seems.

Due tot eh large loss of life as a result of the accident,there was absolute and enormopus outrage in NM, and rightly so, when the accident happened and some of the facts came out. So rightly or wrongly Richardson is reacting to public pressure , Im sure, after the accident.

Im not a lawyer, but there may be some problems for US if there is, as it seems, witnesses to having seen an already drunk man being served more liquor, on a flight into ABQ.


User currently offlineNecigrad From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 10488 times:

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 19):
Im not a lawyer, but there may be some problems for US if there is, as it seems, witnesses to having seen an already drunk man being served more liquor, on a flight into ABQ.

That may be. If it is it will be for the US Government, not New Mexico, to decide. Airlines are not supposed to serve alcohol to persons that appear intoxicated. In fact, we're not even supposed to let you on the plane if you appear drunk. But the word "appear" is so subjective it could easily go in any direction. It would take at least 3 or 4 credible educated witness to refute the inflights decision. One person saying "Yeah, he looked drunk when the flight attendant gave him a drink" ain't gonna cut it.


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4104 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 10135 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 15):
I believe the ones he was enforcing against the airlines and Amtrak were actual old laws on the books. States have some rather arcane alcohol laws, for instance in Utah, I believe you still have to be a member of an drinking club to get hard alcohol by the drink, and have to ask for a wine list in a restaurant, it can't be offered to you (I'm sure if I'm a bit fuzzy on the particulars of that someone will correct me on it).

When I briefly worked for a hotel here in Oregon, it was unlawful for a bar to serve booze that had been given to them (such as from a liquor distributor), and the minibars in the rooms had signs stating the minibar was closed between 2 and 6am (even though that theoretically could never be enforced).

You're right about Utah! The Beehive State has the strictest most arcane laws for alcoholic beverage control in the whole U.S.A. This is a VERY big reason Colorado attracts substantially larger numbers of skiers each year. All Utah has is Park City and the Sundance Film festival. And if you ask many who go to it each year, I think it would be a safe assumption that many would prefer it to be in Colorado based upon the liquor control laws that exist in Utah.
It is quite amazing to see the DL flight attendants carding people on flights out of SLC for drinks.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineSTLGph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9405 posts, RR: 26
Reply 22, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 10051 times:

Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 10):
Remember that Richardson is running for President. I wouldn't be surprised if he is only doing this for publicity.

Because Richardson's name is plastered all over the story....

Oy.



if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
User currently offlinePoitin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9470 times:

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 14):
I'm not a lawyer, but I find this very hard to beleive would be enforceable:

49 USC § 40103(a)(1): The United States Government has exclusive sovereignty of airspace of the United States.

If you were a lawyer, you would know that the US Constitution takes precedence over all laws, with federal or state.

The 21st Amendment to the US Constitution says in its first two parts:



    1. The eighteenth article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States is hereby repealed.

    2. The transportation or importation into any State, Territory, or possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of intoxicating liquors, in violation of the laws thereof, is hereby prohibited.



Article 2 clearly makes what all these rinky dink states are doing legal.


User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9392 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 1):
Why then do the airlines routinely pay overflight taxes to states

Do states collect overflight taxes??

This would seem ot be aviolation of the interstate commerce clause

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 21):
You're right about Utah! The Beehive State has the strictest most arcane laws for alcoholic beverage control in the whole U.S.A. This is a VERY big reason Colorado attracts substantially larger numbers of skiers each year. All Utah has is Park City and the Sundance Film festival.

What an uninformed comment...There are more ski destinations within 45 minutes of SLC than anywhere else in the world. Ever hear of Alta, Solitude, Snow Bird, Canyons, Deer Valley.....There is no problem getting a beer or wine at these resorts. If you need a scotch while skiing, you might have a problem.

Utah has the best skiing in North America.


25 Gte439u : From the Interstate Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constituion, the Federal government has the power to regulate what goes on in U.S. airspace. See U.S.
26 PROSA : It's now been reported that he bought some beer at a convenience store. US also may end up facing civil liability.
27 787KQ : Alcohol consumed inflight is considered delivered or used in a state? If not, then the excerpt doesn't get us to the point of making the state laws p
28 Post contains links Gte439u : Quoting Poitin (Reply 23): 2. The transportation or importation into any State, Territory, or possession of the United States for delivery or use ther
29 Post contains images Cba : This ongoing BS with drunk driving is getting ridiculous. If someone kills people while driving drunk, it IS SOLELY HIS/HER FAULT. This crap about ci
30 Jetdude : OK, now that all the drama is over (I Hope!) here are some of the facts. Airlines have to purchase liquor licenses to serve liquor in a city. (Pre-dep
31 TransWorldSTL : Payback? What??? Does New Mexico think that it's the airlines responsibility to make sure people get home from the airport safely? They didn't know w
32 Motopolitico : Although it may seem that way at times, I'd like to refer you to the 10th amendment: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitutio
33 Post contains images SLCUT2777 : I wish it wre that way but the teachers unions would have the biggest if they ever dropped them here. $$$ for Public Education! I wish you were right
34 AirportGal : if he was intoxicated and in an accident after departing a bar, the bar can be held liable also (at least in the state of Washington). Seems no diffe
35 Post contains images CanadianPylon : And yet another glowing example on how PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY has gone out the window. I guess the airline forced him to drink on the plane, and the
36 Post contains images Lincoln : The case law -- especially the Granholm case cited below -- says otherwise. The "elastic clause" (US Const. Art. I, Sec. VIII) "The Congress shall ha
37 Post contains images EWRCabincrew : Who's trashing Lincoln?!?!?
38 Post contains images Steeler83 : Sheesh, who is this guy, the reverend idiot from that movie, "Footlose?" He banned rock and roll music because he "claimed" that it killed some kid w
39 CWAFlyer : I live in Utah and have for the past 17 years. The liquor laws are a bit confusing, but I have learned to live with them and make do. All of the majo
40 MaidensGator : It would be nice to read the actual cease and desist order. Anyone know if it's online somewhere? I spent eight hours trying a case today; it's not a
41 Post contains links and images FATFlyer : Interesting conversation by the legal experts. Just for kicks I googled airline liquor license and came up with a few interesting links. Here are a fe
42 57AZ : I should point out that the service of alcohol is one point in which the federal case law is confusing as to whether it applies to the service of alco
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