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AF To Increase JNB, Introduce Daylight Services  
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4513 posts, RR: 72
Posted (7 years 10 months 17 hours ago) and read 3409 times:

Merely a year after Air France introduced a second frequency between its Paris CDG hub and Johannesburg's O.R. Tambo International Airport, the airline will reinforce its second rotation to a daily service effective the onset of the Summer 07 timetable. Initially, Air France will operate a double daily service according to the current schedules with a daily A343 service leaving CDG in the early evening and a daily B77W leaving in the airline's late evening longhaul departure hub as follows:

AF994 CDG JNB 1940 0620+1 daily A343 (currently 5 weekly) until 08JUN
AF990 CDG JNB 2315 0940+1 daily B77W

AF995 JNB CDG 1945 0615+1 daily B77W
AF997 JNB CDG 2135 0825+1 daily A343 (currently 5 weekly) until 09JUN

Effective June 10, 2007, Air France will upgrade the second daily JNB rotation to a 3-class B772ER and at the same time change the schedule of this flight to introduce the airline's first ever daylight southbound operation to JNB:

AF994 CDG JNB 1015 2050 daily B772 Eff 10JUN
AF997 JNB CDG 2340 1020 daily B772 Eff 10JUN

The introduction of this daylight operation will allow Air France to significantly improve its utilization rates on the South Africa route. Currently, both the airline's daily B77W and A343 frames are parked at JNB for the better part of a day before returning to Paris.

Air France's sister company KLM has long operated southbound daylight sectors on its AMS JNB and AMS CPT sectors, in order to achieve satisfactory utilization rates, and after the earlier introduction of a southbound daylight CDG GRU flight, Air France will now do the same on CDG JNB and later in the year also on CDG GIG.

These daylight sectors are believed to be less commercially interesting because of the perceived preference of premium traffic for overnight longhaul sectors, yet the increased utilization that results from these operational patterns has the potential of greatly benefiting the airline's bottom line as well.

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 3007 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 17 hours ago) and read 3338 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
These daylight sectors are believed to be less commercially interesting because of the perceived preference of premium traffic for overnight longhaul sectors, yet the increased utilization that results from these operational patterns has the potential of greatly benefiting the airline's bottom line as well.

Don't forget that the daylight flights also open up more desirable connections between North America and South Africa, which--if marketed properly--have the potential of picking up some additional premium traffic. This new service provide easy one-stop access to JNB from many of AF's North American gateways.

Similarly, KLM is already able to offer one of the quickest connections from JFK to CPT thanks to its daytime flight. Despite the extra mileage, the flight time is barely longer than SAA via JNB, even with SAA's reinstated nonstop from JFK to JNB, and avoids the need to clear customs and re-check luggage at JNB. On the return, KLM is actually quicker due to SAA's refueling stop at DKR.

AF's new daylight flight from JFK to CDG also offers nice connections to its evening bank of departures to JNB and other African destinations.



Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2169 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 15 hours ago) and read 3175 times:

There are so many options on the east coast to JNB (ATL, IAD, JFK all daily), I don't see why anyone would go through CDG.

Utilization will be much better, yes, but daylight flights between Europe & South Africa? Great for nonrevs, I guess.


User currently offlineIAD380 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 804 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 14 hours ago) and read 3111 times:

South Africa is obviously a growth market for AF since it upgraded its service to double daily flights over a short period of time. Will AF will start flying to CPT nonstop in the next few years? AF served CPT via JNB for three or four years until 2001. BA, KL, LH, SQ, and I think EK serve CPT. AF is one the few profitable airlines with an extensive global network that does not fly to CPT.

User currently offlineFoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 3007 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 13 hours ago) and read 2994 times:

Quoting AF022 (Reply 2):
There are so many options on the east coast to JNB (ATL, IAD, JFK all daily), I don't see why anyone would go through CDG.

There aren't really that many options--just 3 flights a day between the US and South Africa. For people who live in cities like BOS, ORD, LAX and other cities served by AF, it could mean a much easier trip. Going through ATL on DL means an extra stop in DKR both ways, and going through IAD or JFK on SAA requires a fuel stop on the return (or both ways depending on time of year, I believe). And either way, you'd have to clear immigration and customs and re-check your bags at ATL, IAD or JFK on the return, which you would not need to do at CDG.

Besides, based on my experiences with all three airlines, to be honest I'd much rather spend 20 hours on AF than on DL or SAA.



Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7422 posts, RR: 57
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 12 hours ago) and read 2942 times:

Quoting AF022 (Reply 2):
There are so many options on the east coast to JNB (ATL, IAD, JFK all daily), I don't see why anyone would go through CDG.

You would be suprised by the number of PAX from the U.S (and North America in general) who daily connect at CDG to JNB ! Even today with only the late departures (7:40PM + 11:15PM)

I am sure this Daily flight will be successful ... but certainly not among AF's CREW


User currently offlineNickofatlanta From Australia, joined May 2000, 1488 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 12 hours ago) and read 2939 times:

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 3):
AF served CPT via JNB for three or four years until 2001.

Are you sure about that? I flew AF from BOS to JNB via Paris in 2000 and they definitely did not fly to CPT then. I had to buy a separate ticket on SA to finish the journey. I believe they now code-share with SA for the last leg to CPT.


User currently offlineIAD380 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 804 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 11 hours ago) and read 2857 times:

Quoting Nickofatlanta (Reply 6):
Are you sure about that?

Maybe, I am wrong about the dates. However, some of AF's flights to JNB continued to CPT. AF flew to CPT in the years after apartheid. Perhaps, someone on this forum knows the dates that AF flew this route, or can check it out in an old edition of the OAG.


User currently offlineWillyj From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 468 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 10 hours ago) and read 2835 times:

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 4):
Besides, based on my experiences with all three airlines, to be honest I'd much rather spend 20 hours on AF than on DL or SAA.

I agree with all of your comments except for spending 20 hours on AF over SAA. SAA has a far better business class than AF, and it's economy is equal to, if not better than AF's.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11458 posts, RR: 58
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 10 hours ago) and read 2799 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 5):
I am sure this Daily flight will be successful ... but certainly not among AF's CREW



Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
These daylight sectors are believed to be less commercially interesting because of the perceived preference of premium traffic for overnight longhaul sectors, yet the increased utilization that results from these operational patterns has the potential of greatly benefiting the airline's bottom line as well.

Due to higher demand nowadays, i can say that even daylight flights become a real option. And you have several pax that even choose daylights because they have the advantage of sleep at home or hotel, and be ready for the next day of work. At my bank, Human Resources nowadays use to recommend the daylight more than night flights.

They are very good for strong O&D markets or for connections to another long hauls.

Also, you can avoid the huge lines on peak hours.

And airlines pays the leasing of a single plane... no doubt their bottom lines are very happy with this.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineMindscape From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 315 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 10 hours ago) and read 2795 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
These daylight sectors are believed to be less commercially interesting because of the perceived preference of premium traffic for overnight longhaul sectors

Hello HB-IWC,

Thanks for sharing this info, anyhow, why would AF put a B772ER with 4F/49J/211Y (NEV config) instead of keeping the A343 with only 30J/259Y or 36J/236Y if they think that it will get less premium passengers ?

Q.


User currently offlineFoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 3007 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 10 hours ago) and read 2791 times:

Quoting Willyj (Reply 8):
it's economy is equal to, if not better than AF's.

That may be true now--in fairness, the last time I flew SAA was in 2002. At that time, the food and entertainment offerings were no more than average, and the middle-of-the-night refueling stop on the return flight (which was then at SID) was unpleasant. I know the entertainment has improved since then with the introduction of PTVs, and the A340 might be more comfortable than the 744s that I flew on, but I would still go out of my way to avoid that refueling stop. On the other hand, I have always had good experiences with AF, but every airline has its good days and bad days.



Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 10 hours ago) and read 2772 times:

Good for AF. They're a nice airline and I am sure they will do well on this route. South Africa is a very nice country that should be visited more by people in the Northern Hemisphere, IMO.


The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3335 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 9 hours ago) and read 2767 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
These daylight sectors are believed to be less commercially interesting because of the perceived preference of premium traffic for overnight longhaul sectors, yet the increased utilization that results from these operational patterns has the potential of greatly benefiting the airline's bottom line as well.

Perceived preference is a good choice of words. I tend to agree with the comment below. When I travel for business, I prefer to have a day flight.
You sleep in your own bed the night before, then you can either work on the plane or have some much needed rest or catch a movie/read a book.
You arrive in the evening, sleep in a bed [instead of an aircraft seat], and you're fully rested for a days business.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 9):
Due to higher demand nowadays, i can say that even daylight flights become a real option. And you have several pax that even choose daylights because they have the advantage of sleep at home or hotel, and be ready for the next day of work. At my bank, Human Resources nowadays use to recommend the daylight more than night flights.

I also think that by having day flights, it actually offers J class pax much more flaxibility.


User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3335 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 9 hours ago) and read 2758 times:

Forgot to add:

Given that CDG-JNB is about 10.5 hours each way, couldn't AF more effectively serve the market by allocating just two aircraft rather than three or four?

Flight time to JNB and back is 21 hours. Isn't 90 minutes for each layover/turn sufficient??

From a crewing perspective also, I assume 24 hours is sufficient for AF crew?


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4513 posts, RR: 72
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 6 hours ago) and read 2673 times:

Quoting Nickofatlanta (Reply 6):
Are you sure about that? I flew AF from BOS to JNB via Paris in 2000 and they definitely did not fly to CPT then. I had to buy a separate ticket on SA to finish the journey. I believe they now code-share with SA for the last leg to CPT.

Air France's main overnight service AF990 definitely continued to CPT at some time in the 1990s, and Air France stopped it because of losses incurred by operating the JNB CPT tag. The code share you are referring to is with Nationwide Airlines rather than with SAA. AF also codeshare on KLM's AMS CPT services.

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 3):
Will AF will start flying to CPT nonstop in the next few years?

At the time the JNB CPT tag was given up, AF announced that it would only be restarting CPT if it could do so nonstop and when it had the aircraft to do so. By now, however, AF-partner KLM operates nonstop AMS CPT services so that might, at least for the time being, preclude AF from starting its own services there.

Quoting Mindscape (Reply 10):
Thanks for sharing this info, anyhow, why would AF put a B772ER with 4F/49J/211Y (NEV config) instead of keeping the A343 with only 30J/259Y or 36J/236Y if they think that it will get less premium passengers ?

I would presume that they believe that they can fill more premium seats on the route. I didn't say that they think the number of premium passengers will go down. I rather said that daylight services are generally perceived to have more difficulties in attracting premium traffic.

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 14):
Given that CDG-JNB is about 10.5 hours each way, couldn't AF more effectively serve the market by allocating just two aircraft rather than three or four?

Flight time to JNB and back is 21 hours. Isn't 90 minutes for each layover/turn sufficient??

From a crewing perspective also, I assume 24 hours is sufficient for AF crew?

I believe the double overnight service AF990/997 will always stay as it is, and that AF, just like BA, VS, LH and the like, will always have one aircraft parked for the better part of a day for the sake of offering overnight flights with optimal connectivity at the hub.

If you suggest that AF would immediately turn around its overnight service from CDG and return it as a northbound daylight service then the problem is really that connectivity at CDG for that flight will be reduced to almost nil. BA operates, at certain times of the year, northbound daylight services from CPT, yet those services leave CPT quite a bit earlier than what AF would currently be able to achieve and those flights serve a largely O&D purpose.

In order for AF to make northbound daylight operations feasible in the current hub and spoke model at CDG, it would have to move the departure time of the outbound AF990 service earlier, outside the airline's main late evening departure wave, and arrive at JNB around 5.30am for a return around 7-7.30am from JNB. Such a departure time not only precludes domestic connections at JNB but also is awkardly early for the local traffic.


User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3335 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 6 hours ago) and read 2653 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
AF994 CDG JNB 1015 2050 daily B772 Eff 10JUN
AF997 JNB CDG 2340 1020 daily B772 Eff 10JUN

I was merely suggesting that the timings of the above flights could be tightened a little bit to allow the same aircraft to operate the sector.

Perhaps along the lines of:

AF994 CDG JNB 1045 2120
AF997 JNB CDG 2240 0920

So the same aircraft does the same rotation.. 85 min turn in CDG, 80 in JNB.


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4513 posts, RR: 72
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 6 hours ago) and read 2643 times:

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 16):
I was merely suggesting that the timings of the above flights could be tightened a little bit to allow the same aircraft to operate the sector.

Perhaps along the lines of:

AF994 CDG JNB 1045 2120
AF997 JNB CDG 2240 0920

So the same aircraft does the same rotation.. 85 min turn in CDG, 80 in JNB

I don't think it really matters for an airline like Air France to have this JNB cycle fit into a 24-hour window, as the aircraft anyway rotate through the entire system. AF is not allocating a specific aircraft to a specific route, and the AF994 aircraft is likely to be sourced from an early morning CDG arrival, whereas the AF997 arriving frame is likely to be used for an outbound service in the 1.30pm longhaul departure wave. Connectivity at the hub is really the main determinant when setting up schedules like this one.


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7422 posts, RR: 57
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2457 times:

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 3):
Will AF will start flying to CPT nonstop in the next few years? AF served CPT via JNB for three or four years until 2001



Quoting Nickofatlanta (Reply 6):
Are you sure about that?

IAD380 is right.
AF 's Daily fligh to JNB was continuing to CPT (3 x Weekly), HRE ( 2 x Weekly) , or MPM ( 2 x Weekly).

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 15):
At the time the JNB CPT tag was given up, AF announced that it would only be restarting CPT if it could do so nonstop and when it had the aircraft to do so. By now, however, AF-partner KLM operates nonstop AMS CPT services so that might, at least for the time being, preclude AF from starting its own services there.

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User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8573 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2401 times:

Quoting AF022 (Reply 2):
There are so many options on the east coast to JNB (ATL, IAD, JFK all daily), I don't see why anyone would go through CDG.

That's not a lot of options. A lot of people still connect in Europe on their way to S.Africa. This flight makes it, arguably the most convenient way to travel to S.Africa from many US and Canadian cities served by AF. I'd much rather have a seemless transfer at CDG (or any other European) airport rather than the hassle we all know it can be to clear immigration and customs in the US when your transfering from an International-Domestic flight. And if you happen to be a citizen of certain third countries wanting to travel between Canada and S.Africa, transfering in the US is something you'd like to avoid if you can. If nothing else, just so you don't need to get a visa.


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4513 posts, RR: 72
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2254 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 18):
MPM ( 2 x Weekly).

Now there's a destination which I could see sooner or later returning to AF's network as a nonstop service or in combination with another secondary destination in the region.


User currently offlineFoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 3007 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2229 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 20):
Now there's a destination which I could see sooner or later returning to AF's network as a nonstop service or in combination with another secondary destination in the region.

Interesting. Is TAP currently the only airline with direct direct service to MPM from Europe?



Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
User currently offlineSwissgabe From Switzerland, joined Jan 2000, 5266 posts, RR: 33
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2208 times:

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 21):
Interesting. Is TAP currently the only airline with direct direct service to MPM from Europe?

Since LAM stoped its service to Europe yes. If not mistaken, Aeroflot also used to operate to MPM from Moscow with a direct service.



Smooth as silk - Royal Orchid Service /// Suid-Afrikaanse Lugdiens - Springbok
User currently offlineIAD380 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 804 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2207 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 20):
Now there's a destination which I could see sooner or later returning to AF's network as a nonstop service or in combination with another secondary destination in the region.

I think DUR would be a better choice than MPM. DUR is not far from MPM. DUR has a better airport, more modern infrastructure, better tourist facilities, a bigger business community, and a wealthier population than MPM. However, I think AF will return to CPT long before it adds either DUR or MPM to its network.


User currently offlineMagic48 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 43 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2184 times:

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 23):
I think DUR would be a better choice than MPM. DUR is not far from MPM.

Yes, but DUR is not far from JNB either.

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 23):
However, I think AF will return to CPT long before it adds either DUR or MPM to its network.

That would definitely make sense as I believe most tourists that fly to South Africa visit the Cape Town area. Would be great if AF operated a non-stop flight to CPT sometime.


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4513 posts, RR: 72
Reply 25, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2100 times:

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 23):
However, I think AF will return to CPT long before it adds either DUR or MPM to its network.

As long as KLM is not able to make CPT work daily year round, I don't think that Air France will return to CPT. For the time being, KLM is still reducing its CPT frequencies in the Northern summer season.


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